RE: Allied CVs, early wwar

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jmalter -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 7:42:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffk3510 How come the Allies never had a long-legged land based torpedo bomber? No need with their carrier striking power? in the game, you can use torp-equipped PBYs to devastating effect. rng=14 or better, later models have drop-tanks & search radar. ntm they carry 2 Mk13 torps.

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 7:52:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jmalter quote: ORIGINAL: jeffk3510 How come the Allies never had a long-legged land based torpedo bomber? No need with their carrier striking power? in the game, you can use torp-equipped PBYs to devastating effect. rng=14 or better, later models have drop-tanks & search radar. ntm they carry 2 Mk13 torps. You never get enough of them for sustained combat ops.

Chickenboy -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 7:59:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jmalter quote: ORIGINAL: jeffk3510 How come the Allies never had a long-legged land based torpedo bomber? No need with their carrier striking power? in the game, you can use torp-equipped PBYs to devastating effect. rng=14 or better, later models have drop-tanks & search radar. ntm they carry 2 Mk13 torps. In games involving a PH strike with an effective anti-airfield strike, PBYs typically are hit very hard, as IRL. Replacements are scant, so it takes a long time to offset normal OPs losses with the few amphibious PBYs that come out. You CAN marshall them together and try a torpedo strike, but woe unto the Allied player that attacks a CAP'ed TF at sea in such circumstances. They'll get shredded and now you're out a whole ****load of naval search aircraft for many months.

Nikademus -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 8:22:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo What about the Med? Again.....finances. The Med was the most important non-home watered theater but the interwar period saw the purse strings at their tightest. Just prior to 1940 when Italy began it's first offensive there was but a single Hurricane located in Egypt to compliment a scratch force of obsolete planes scattered throughout Africa. This included Wellesleys, Vincents, Valentias, Furys and Hartbeestes. Malta started off with a fighter force of 3 Gladiators. The RN was the principle defender of the Med and they had their CV's. The Italian battlefleet was small but modernizing with the laying down of the Littorios, but England could match them with existing BB's as long as they didnt' get too stretched (which they did) Air resources were allocated (in general) with Home Islands first priority followed by all the other theaters....this continued even well after the war started. Thats why it took so long to get Spits abroad much less modern bombers. The UK had to supliment with purchased US designs like the Maryland and Hudson. mulla mulla. The dicatorships could afford to spend a larger bulk of their capita on military projects (though in Germany's case not as much as previously thought)

Commander Stormwolf -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 9:07:32 PM)
if billy mitchell were to design a plane, it would probably be a betty

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:43:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf if billy mitchell were to design a plane, it would probably be a betty Naw.....it'd be a B-25! [:D]

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:45:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo What about the Med? Again.....finances. The Med was the most important non-home watered theater but the interwar period saw the purse strings at their tightest. Just prior to 1940 when Italy began it's first offensive there was but a single Hurricane located in Egypt to compliment a scratch force of obsolete planes scattered throughout Africa. This included Wellesleys, Vincents, Valentias, Furys and Hartbeestes. Malta started off with a fighter force of 3 Gladiators. The RN was the principle defender of the Med and they had their CV's. The Italian battlefleet was small but modernizing with the laying down of the Littorios, but England could match them with existing BB's as long as they didnt' get too stretched (which they did) Air resources were allocated (in general) with Home Islands first priority followed by all the other theaters....this continued even well after the war started. Thats why it took so long to get Spits abroad much less modern bombers. The UK had to supliment with purchased US designs like the Maryland and Hudson. mulla mulla. The dicatorships could afford to spend a larger bulk of their capita on military projects (though in Germany's case not as much as previously thought) This is all true. Still, it strikes me as odd that there was no interest at all in developing a land-based TB. The Brits were generally very innovative and ready to try new things. Why not a TB?

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:46:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo What about the Med? Again.....finances. The Med was the most important non-home watered theater but the interwar period saw the purse strings at their tightest. Just prior to 1940 when Italy began it's first offensive there was but a single Hurricane located in Egypt to compliment a scratch force of obsolete planes scattered throughout Africa. This included Wellesleys, Vincents, Valentias, Furys and Hartbeestes. Malta started off with a fighter force of 3 Gladiators. The RN was the principle defender of the Med and they had their CV's. The Italian battlefleet was small but modernizing with the laying down of the Littorios, but England could match them with existing BB's as long as they didnt' get too stretched (which they did) Air resources were allocated (in general) with Home Islands first priority followed by all the other theaters....this continued even well after the war started. Thats why it took so long to get Spits abroad much less modern bombers. The UK had to supliment with purchased US designs like the Maryland and Hudson. mulla mulla. The dicatorships could afford to spend a larger bulk of their capita on military projects (though in Germany's case not as much as previously thought) This is all true. Still, it strikes me as odd that there was no interest at all in developing a land-based TB. The Brits were generally very innovative and ready to try new things. Why not a TB? Like the Torbeau? [:D]

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:47:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf if billy mitchell were to design a plane, it would probably be a betty Naw.....it'd be a B-25! [:D] NO YOURE WRONG!!!!!! It'd be a B1. If you dont agree, you're stoopid! [:@] [:'(]

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:47:40 PM)
Many in the USA felt that mediums could carry torpedos. As in the case of the 4 B-26's at Midway , that had two each. [:)] I see no reason that a B-25 could carry one.[:)]

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:48:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf if billy mitchell were to design a plane, it would probably be a betty Naw.....it'd be a B-25! [:D] NO YOURE WRONG!!!!!! It'd be a B1. If you dont agree, you're stoopid! [:@] [:'(] And what's the name of a B-25? [:D]

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo What about the Med? Again.....finances. The Med was the most important non-home watered theater but the interwar period saw the purse strings at their tightest. Just prior to 1940 when Italy began it's first offensive there was but a single Hurricane located in Egypt to compliment a scratch force of obsolete planes scattered throughout Africa. This included Wellesleys, Vincents, Valentias, Furys and Hartbeestes. Malta started off with a fighter force of 3 Gladiators. The RN was the principle defender of the Med and they had their CV's. The Italian battlefleet was small but modernizing with the laying down of the Littorios, but England could match them with existing BB's as long as they didnt' get too stretched (which they did) Air resources were allocated (in general) with Home Islands first priority followed by all the other theaters....this continued even well after the war started. Thats why it took so long to get Spits abroad much less modern bombers. The UK had to supliment with purchased US designs like the Maryland and Hudson. mulla mulla. The dicatorships could afford to spend a larger bulk of their capita on military projects (though in Germany's case not as much as previously thought) This is all true. Still, it strikes me as odd that there was no interest at all in developing a land-based TB. The Brits were generally very innovative and ready to try new things. Why not a TB? Like the Torbeau? [:D] Beaufighter TB variant? That was well into the war, no?

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:52:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf if billy mitchell were to design a plane, it would probably be a betty Naw.....it'd be a B-25! [:D] NO YOURE WRONG!!!!!! It'd be a B1. If you dont agree, you're stoopid! [:@] [:'(] And what's the name of a B-25? [:D] Named for Yvonne Mitchell... [img]http://cache2.artprintimages.com/LRG/27/2770/CAXTD00Z.jpg[/img] And rightly so. [:D]

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:54:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo What about the Med? Again.....finances. The Med was the most important non-home watered theater but the interwar period saw the purse strings at their tightest. Just prior to 1940 when Italy began it's first offensive there was but a single Hurricane located in Egypt to compliment a scratch force of obsolete planes scattered throughout Africa. This included Wellesleys, Vincents, Valentias, Furys and Hartbeestes. Malta started off with a fighter force of 3 Gladiators. The RN was the principle defender of the Med and they had their CV's. The Italian battlefleet was small but modernizing with the laying down of the Littorios, but England could match them with existing BB's as long as they didnt' get too stretched (which they did) Air resources were allocated (in general) with Home Islands first priority followed by all the other theaters....this continued even well after the war started. Thats why it took so long to get Spits abroad much less modern bombers. The UK had to supliment with purchased US designs like the Maryland and Hudson. mulla mulla. The dicatorships could afford to spend a larger bulk of their capita on military projects (though in Germany's case not as much as previously thought) This is all true. Still, it strikes me as odd that there was no interest at all in developing a land-based TB. The Brits were generally very innovative and ready to try new things. Why not a TB? Like the Torbeau? [:D] Beaufighter TB variant? That was well into the war, no? May 1943. It was the nickname for the Beaufighter MK X which could carry a torpedo.

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:56:11 PM)
Chezdajez did some research arguing against torpedo armed B-25's in the game, but I find that the B-25a could be fitted with a shackle that allowed torpedo use. Then again , the Navy tested a version for CV use, but decided against it. [X(]

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 10:59:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve May 1943. It was the nickname for the Beaufighter MK X which could carry a torpedo. Yes, I did have to google it but it came back to me as soon as I saw the picture. [:D]

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 11:01:35 PM)
That would be an interesting ability to use PBJ's as torpedo bombers. But with skip bombing and solid noses would you even need them? [&:]

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 11:05:05 PM)
The 38th BG flew B-26's armed with torpedos. They were the ones at Midway. And supposedly there were 2 squadrons in the Aleutians with torpedo's.

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 11:05:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve Chezdajez did some research arguing against torpedo armed B-25's in the game, but I find that the B-25a could be fitted with a shackle that allowed torpedo use. Then again , the Navy tested a version for CV use, but decided against it. [X(] Youre adding to my argument. [:D] So (unlike me) someone put in the time to do the research and discovered that the US did test the possibility, found that it was possible and decided not to go ahead with it. I can totally understand not wanting to deal with CV-born Mitchells but those G variants with all them guns in the nose that were specifically built to attack Japanese shipping...doesnt that sound like the perfect place to use a torpedo bomber?

pharmy -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/6/2012 11:37:22 PM)
When the attack skip bomber concept was put into effect by a USAAF outfit (5th airforce)they decided that a bomb would be a better bargain. Couple of reasons I could think of, Navy not having good torpedoes, navy not giving over torpedoes to MacArthur, shallow draft of vessels being attacked, thin armor of ships in that area, pilot needing to concentrate more on torpedo run, having to fly slower, shallow waters as generally heavy bombers did port strikes, etc... The Soviets used A-20 Havoc teams, one solid nose for AA suppression, one armed with a torpedo. I'm downloading a couple of hundred Osprey books, here is a preview from one of them. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=AYR_sqJwlAEC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=skip+bombing+vs+torpedo&source=bl&ots=Om-FJDgLpa&sig=Gh6xfTzcWmJFcR2Q2iVvuZd9K5E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jmb3T6b8NMjVrQfjlvTKBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=skip%20bombing%20vs%20torpedo&f=false Seems like the Marines could do them but said no thank you. But again, most of them faced thin skinned shallow draft coastal vessels. I think some of the early Venturas could release torpedoes, but not sure of that Google torrent Osprey world history series - i didnt check if this book is amongst them. I do spend 300-400 USD on books per month on Amazon (half for shipping to India), so I dont feel so guilty getting this in torrent.

AW1Steve -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:03:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve Chezdajez did some research arguing against torpedo armed B-25's in the game, but I find that the B-25a could be fitted with a shackle that allowed torpedo use. Then again , the Navy tested a version for CV use, but decided against it. [X(] Youre adding to my argument. [:D] So (unlike me) someone put in the time to do the research and discovered that the US did test the possibility, found that it was possible and decided not to go ahead with it. I can totally understand not wanting to deal with CV-born Mitchells but those G variants with all them guns in the nose that were specifically built to attack Japanese shipping...doesnt that sound like the perfect place to use a torpedo bomber? I think a CV borne B-25 wouldn't be good for an Essex class, but for the Midways? They carrier both P-2V's (Neptunes) and AJ-1 (Savages) for the nuclear attack role. A XB-25 nuclear bomber? [&:]

spence -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:06:51 AM)
The design of the most US twin engine bombers allowed a torpedo to be carried but combat proved that bombs worked well enough and were cheaper in terms of just plain cost and in the time and effort required to train crews to launch them. Besides the B-26s at the time of Midway some PV-1 and PV-2 crews trained with torpedoes but none apparently ever made a "warshot". I have found one curious picture taken on Attu in the Aleutians though which shows a torpedo being loaded onto a PV-2 (kind of a curious training locale I should think).

Nikademus -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:22:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo Beaufighter TB variant? That was well into the war, no? later on, yes.

Nikademus -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:32:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve Chezdajez did some research arguing against torpedo armed B-25's in the game, but I find that the B-25a could be fitted with a shackle that allowed torpedo use. Then again , the Navy tested a version for CV use, but decided against it. [X(] yes he did. He found that few of the B-25 groups designated for torpedo training actually did any serious training. Most that did carried concrete weights. His primary argument (after his reserach) was that the groups that had trained (somewhat) were not deployed with the logistics to support it nor was their 'practice' kept up. Thus his argument was that no, one could not justify altering in the game giving some B-25 varients the loudout option. The G4M and G3M's could because it was standard doctrine for them, assuming the logistics were in place which AE now simulates with the Torpedo Ordinance device embedded in certain Air HQ's. Could the B-25 carry a torp? yes. Could the B-26? yes. Many 2E's could be retrofited to do so including the Ju-88 and S-79 and 84 plus the Beaufort and the Mosquito. Oh and the Soviets strapped a couple onto the IL-4 Hell everyone by now has heard the famous story of the PBY at Lunga jury rigged to lug two torpedoes. Oh....and the Emily could lug a couple. (wait for it) Me....i'd like to strap a couple onto a Sunderland + 4 DC's..........a pumpkin and two M-80 firecrackers

Historiker -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:36:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo What about the Med? Again.....finances. The Med was the most important non-home watered theater but the interwar period saw the purse strings at their tightest. Just prior to 1940 when Italy began it's first offensive there was but a single Hurricane located in Egypt to compliment a scratch force of obsolete planes scattered throughout Africa. This included Wellesleys, Vincents, Valentias, Furys and Hartbeestes. Malta started off with a fighter force of 3 Gladiators. The RN was the principle defender of the Med and they had their CV's. The Italian battlefleet was small but modernizing with the laying down of the Littorios, but England could match them with existing BB's as long as they didnt' get too stretched (which they did) Air resources were allocated (in general) with Home Islands first priority followed by all the other theaters....this continued even well after the war started. Thats why it took so long to get Spits abroad much less modern bombers. The UK had to supliment with purchased US designs like the Maryland and Hudson. mulla mulla. The dicatorships could afford to spend a larger bulk of their capita on military projects (though in Germany's case not as much as previously thought) This is all true. Still, it strikes me as odd that there was no interest at all in developing a land-based TB. The Brits were generally very innovative and ready to try new things. Why not a TB? What is the Beaufort, if not a TB? She haunted German shipping!

Historiker -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:41:42 AM)
quote: Could the B-25 carry a torp? yes. Could the B-26? yes. Many 2E's could be retrofited to do so including the Ju-88 and S-79 and 84 plus the Beaufort and the Mosquito. Oh and the Soviets strapped a couple onto the IL-4 I once had a book in my hand about German torpedo planes. It showed pictures with almost every plane carrying a torpedo. From the usual suspects Ju-88 and He-111 to Do-17 and Do-217 over to Ju-87 and Fw-190... Without being a flight engineur, I guess that almost any plane able to lift the weight could carry one. But how effective is another matter, as we all know.

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:43:46 AM)
So we're back to the original point. It was very possible, but it wasnt done. The reason for it not being done seems to be that bombs worked well enough. The conclusion I'm coming up with is that AE does not model the damage which bombs could realistically do to ships. Even with lower historical hit rates it seems that bombs were indeed good enough (seems to me that historical hit rates were more like what you'd expect from the Dutch on turn 2 [:D]). Of course we cant get AE to model such things because with hit rates we get in the game you could eradicate fleets of ships in a single turn. And if we didnt, there would be a general uprising. Does that seem fairly accurate or is that an unsustainable leap of inference?

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:46:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Historiker quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus quote: ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo What about the Med? Again.....finances. The Med was the most important non-home watered theater but the interwar period saw the purse strings at their tightest. Just prior to 1940 when Italy began it's first offensive there was but a single Hurricane located in Egypt to compliment a scratch force of obsolete planes scattered throughout Africa. This included Wellesleys, Vincents, Valentias, Furys and Hartbeestes. Malta started off with a fighter force of 3 Gladiators. The RN was the principle defender of the Med and they had their CV's. The Italian battlefleet was small but modernizing with the laying down of the Littorios, but England could match them with existing BB's as long as they didnt' get too stretched (which they did) Air resources were allocated (in general) with Home Islands first priority followed by all the other theaters....this continued even well after the war started. Thats why it took so long to get Spits abroad much less modern bombers. The UK had to supliment with purchased US designs like the Maryland and Hudson. mulla mulla. The dicatorships could afford to spend a larger bulk of their capita on military projects (though in Germany's case not as much as previously thought) This is all true. Still, it strikes me as odd that there was no interest at all in developing a land-based TB. The Brits were generally very innovative and ready to try new things. Why not a TB? What is the Beaufort, if not a TB? She haunted German shipping! I was referring to pre-war aircraft development. The answer to that question appears to be that Brits didnt have the money to pursue it and the US didnt have the interest to spend the money to pursue it because Billy Mitchell showed them that bombs work. [:D]

Onime No Kyo -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:47:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Historiker quote: Could the B-25 carry a torp? yes. Could the B-26? yes. Many 2E's could be retrofited to do so including the Ju-88 and S-79 and 84 plus the Beaufort and the Mosquito. Oh and the Soviets strapped a couple onto the IL-4 I once had a book in my hand about German torpedo planes. It showed pictures with almost every plane carrying a torpedo. From the usual suspects Ju-88 and He-111 to Do-17 and Do-217 over to Ju-87 and Fw-190... Without being a flight engineur, I guess that almost any plane able to lift the weight could carry one. But how effective is another matter, as we all know. I'm not an...ahm....engineur either but I wonder what unfortunate things strapping a torpedo it it would do to a Stuka's flight characteristics.

Historiker -> RE: Allied CVs, early wwar (7/7/2012 12:49:12 AM)
I've found it [:)] I'm presenting: TP Ju-52/3m - now TB Ju-52/3m [image]local://upfiles/25688/978A567B8EC14034AC835EC5894C94DF.jpg[/image]

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