need some help on info please (Full Version)

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crazyivan -> need some help on info please (1/23/2001 6:31:00 AM)

I have heard but not shore was there anytime in ww2 history that there could have been rouge russians fighting in german uniform against there own side.ie there was a small unit of germanuniforms with unionjacks insigns on them believed to be x britts fighting out of pow camps in penal regiments.



Don -> (1/23/2001 8:44:00 AM)

Hi Ivan, it seemed like you were away from the forum for a while - glad you're back! I do remember reading about Russians "serving" with the germans in a kind of "gopher" , non-combat kind of role. But I also read of times when the krauts got desperate and armed them and they fought. I'll see if I can find out more - there was a German name for them. Don



crazyivan -> (1/23/2001 9:01:00 AM)

thanks don i haven't been away just gaming but still checking the posts every day [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]



Alexandra -> (1/23/2001 10:48:00 AM)

Yes, there were. I believe that the Germans called them Hiwi's, and by 1943 the sheer amount of them was considered to be quite an embarassment by STAVKA. I've seen claims of as many as 2,000,000, though, that may be high, and most of them were not used in combat arms roles. Also, this does not include the Free Ukrainian Corps that Army Group South formed in 1944 - 3 years after they should have. Alex



Kluckenbill -> (1/23/2001 11:17:00 AM)

Hiwi's = hilfs willige (or something like that) = volunteer helpers (I think, my German is pretty rusty.) There were pretty sizable units of Russians fighting for Germany late in the war. They surrendered to the Western Allies but were sent back to be killed by the communists. There are accounts of them in Ryan's "The Last Battle" among other books. I can't say I ever heard of Brits fighting for the Germans. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



Don -> (1/23/2001 11:57:00 AM)

Yep, that's it! Hiwi's! You two saved me some searching there! Don



orc4hire -> (1/23/2001 12:02:00 PM)

Not all of them were sent back; the American policy was that anyone captured in a German uniform was officially a German. The British, now they 'repatriated' a lot of Russians... at bayonet point; the Russians really didn't want to go home....



RockinHarry -> (1/23/2001 9:55:00 PM)

Yes, HiWi="Hilfswillige" serving non frontline duties and "Ost-Battallione" used for fighting on the western front, as a stop gap measure for the mostly understrength (static)Inf divisions. These troops surrendered to the western allies at the earliest opportunity, although some fought (???).



Iron Cross -> (1/24/2001 3:19:00 AM)

Gentleman, The German forces on the Eastern Front had anywhere from 225,000 to 415,000 "Hiwi's" serving with the German Army in support roles from early 1942 right through to the end of 1944. One "Corps" was formed with approximately 35,000 troops under the leadership of a "White Russian" general named Vlasov. Although they did not distinguish themselves in direct combat, most served loyally with the German forces they were assigned to. Most were executed after the end of the war by the Soviets, even after being offered to be "rehabilitated - i.e. - Siberian Gulags." For the most part, the Hiwis represented the fiercest anti-communist portion of Soviet society. Many historians (I tend to agree) that if proper incentives and treatment was offered occupied areas in Russia, a much larger loyal Russian force could have been raised and utilized against Stalin's communist forces.



Grumble -> (1/24/2001 4:14:00 AM)

Some Russians were stationed in Normandy during the invasion, around Omaha IIRC. Originally, the deal they agreed to was to be used only in the East, fighting the Red Army. When the intensity of anti-bolshevik feeling was experienced in 1941, Goebbels recommended putting off the racial issues until the USSR was defeated and employing the Belo-Russians/Ukranians. Hitler, never one to miss poking himself in the eye, refused until 1943/44.



Don Doom -> (1/24/2001 4:15:00 AM)

There was also two SS infantry divsions of russians, not fully staffed. There was a thread on Achtum panzer board about the British serving in German service. I believe it was less than a battalion, most were shot after the war as traitors by the british. Here is the line up of non-German SS divsions: 5th mixed german/west european. 7th racial germans from yugoslavia. 11th same as 7th. 13th yugoslav muslim. 14th Ukrainian's 15th Latvian/german. 16th german/racial german. 17th same as 16th. 18th same as 16th. 19th latvian 20th estonian 21st Albanian muslin 22nd same as 16th. 23rd same as th 13th. 2nd [23 div] dutch 24th italian/racial german 25th hungarian 26th same as 25th. 27th flemish/belgian. 28th Walloon-belgian 29th Russian [2] 29th italian 30th Russian 33rd hungarian [2] 33rd french 34th dutch The 23rd[2],27,28th and 33[2] were originally "legions", belonging either to the ss or army. Source for above "waffen ss by john keegan Doom



crazyivan -> (1/24/2001 4:41:00 AM)

well thanks heaps for your time and effort guys it has helped alot [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]



rexmonday -> (1/26/2001 4:14:00 AM)

here is a page that seems to deal with your question, from the British perspective. I can remember being quite surprised at seeing a photo of a Muslim (?) SS unit one time... I will try and remember where I saw that one. http://www.feldgrau.com/gb.html



Randy -> (1/26/2001 3:14:00 PM)

I've often read that when the Germans invaded Russia, the Ukranians initially treated the Germanns as liberators. But as was said earlier, the eventual poor treatment by the Germans drove them back to support Stalin. Semper Fi Randy



Randy -> (1/26/2001 3:27:00 PM)

Rexmonday, I've got an old Ballantine History of WWII book on the Waffen SS, and it has a couple of pictures with SS racial units of Indians with Hindu headgear as part of the Indian Legion, and members of a Yugoslav Muslim SS mountain unit wearing the fez headgear. This is from the same book as Don Doom's book. Semper Fi Randy



Randy -> (1/26/2001 3:28:00 PM)

Rexmonday, I've got an old Ballantine History of WWII book on the Waffen SS, and it has a couple of pictures with SS racial units of Indians with Hindu headgear as part of the Indian Legion, and members of a Yugoslav Muslim SS mountain unit wearing the fez headgear. This is from the same book as Don Doom's book. Semper Fi Randy



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