Plimus.....Really Matrix? (Full Version)

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Valhuen -> Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 6:32:15 PM)

Have been a customer of Matrix Games for years, though have taken a hiatus for the last few. One of the reasons for this has been illustrated once again as I just purchased Panzer Corps and Panzer Command Ostfront. Downloading both from Primus I am getting 200kbs on a very good cable connection, I have never had downloads this slow. This also seems to be a common complaint regarding Plimus (in addition to having a bad reputation all around).

My question is simply why does Matrix appear to be stuck in 1999 when so many DD sites (Steam, Amazon, GamersGate, GOG, etc.) have little problems with finding reliable download providers? It just contributes to the overall feeling I get that Matrix is "archaic". Honestly makes me hesitate about further purchases in the future (and I purchase historical wargames regularly elsewhere). Some may not care, some may see this as an attack on their favorite games company, but I believe the criticism to be valid.



parusski -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 6:45:47 PM)

quote:

My question is simply why does Matrix appear to be stuck in 1999 when so many DD sites


What if ALL of us were stuck in 1999, when we did not have instant access to downloadable games. I recall having to actually wait until a game arrived in your local game store or, God forbid, you had to order and wait a week or so for delivery.

I do not intend to insult you, but 200kbs is reasonable, unless you now you only have a few hours to live.[;)]



Bison36 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 6:45:50 PM)

Plimus does have horrible download rates.



parusski -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 6:50:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bison36

Plimus does have horrible download rates.


Yes, they do. But the alternative...is not getting the game.



Valhuen -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 6:56:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

quote:

My question is simply why does Matrix appear to be stuck in 1999 when so many DD sites


I do not intend to insult you, but 200kbs is reasonable, unless you now you only have a few hours to live.[;)]


200kbs reasonable? For whom? Perhaps you truly are stuck in 1999. Honestly if Matrix is going to carry on as a "boutique" publisher charging premium rates, they really need to become more customer friendly. Paying $75 for a game (such as the cost for the "complete" edition of Panzer Corps) I would at least expect a hassle-free experience following my purchase, which includes a reliable download provider. God forbid something goes wrong with my download (file corruption, etc.) and I have to again wait three hours to re-download a 1gb game, that is simply absurd.

As for the 200kbs....I was being generous, so far it is sustaining at 120kbs......



Valhuen -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 6:59:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bison36

Plimus does have horrible download rates.


Yes, they do. But the alternative...is not getting the game.


No, the alternative is Matrix recognizing the issue and correcting it by finding a more reliable DD provider. Of all the DD sites out there that I have used, including companies that host their own file downloads, none have been this slow. All this shows me is Matrix, knowing the issue, does not believe it important enough to address, which is unfortunate to say the least.



Yogi the Great -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 7:13:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

What if ALL of us were stuck in 1999, when we did not have instant access to downloadable games. I recall having to actually wait until a game arrived in your local game store or, God forbid, you had to order and wait a week or so for delivery.



Sadly parusski, I call those the good old days. I liked buying games in the store. I liked the anticipation of the ground delivery. I liked having a hard copy. Yes I am old and archaic and proud of it.



parusski -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 7:23:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

What if ALL of us were stuck in 1999, when we did not have instant access to downloadable games. I recall having to actually wait until a game arrived in your local game store or, God forbid, you had to order and wait a week or so for delivery.



Sadly parusski, I call those the good old days. I liked buying games in the store. I liked the anticipation of the ground delivery. I liked having a hard copy. Yes I am old and archaic and proud of it.


Yeah, I ANTICIPATED too. I am shocked at how upset people get that instant gratification is not fast enough. On other forums I have seen people pissed at speeds 4 times 200kbs...so I guess instant should mean...a genie twitches her nose and it appears, now that is instant(almost).



Valhuen -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 7:49:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great


quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

What if ALL of us were stuck in 1999, when we did not have instant access to downloadable games. I recall having to actually wait until a game arrived in your local game store or, God forbid, you had to order and wait a week or so for delivery.



Sadly parusski, I call those the good old days. I liked buying games in the store. I liked the anticipation of the ground delivery. I liked having a hard copy. Yes I am old and archaic and proud of it.


Yeah, I ANTICIPATED too. I am shocked at how upset people get that instant gratification is not fast enough. On other forums I have seen people pissed at speeds 4 times 200kbs...so I guess instant should mean...a genie twitches her nose and it appears, now that is instant(almost).


So, given your replies, I am to assume that Matrix core market extends only to older grognards that relish for the "Good Ole' Days", and hence any complaints to the contrary is perceived as unrealistic? Now, as I am entering middle age (40), a professor of Military Science & Military History, I do get the sentimentality in many respects. I prefer good ole' fashioned books to e-readers for example. However if Matrix is going to cater only to the "hardcore" audience, and do things in ways that truly are archaic given the new realities of the digital marketplace, I fear that like historical miniature wargaming, their core demographic is only getting older.

And while the Old Guard may not be bothered by this (and Matrix is clearly aiming for this audience), however if companies like Matrix and to a lesser extent Shrapnel, Battlefront and HPS do not start streamlining and catering to a more tech savvy and younger demographic (which in no way means having to "dumb down" the product), I fear these companies may eventually be left in the dust. A model to look at (even if you do not see their games as "hardcore wargames") is Paradox. Wide platform distribution (available on most main DD sites), pricing variations, and considerable market penetration.

As both a miniature, board and PC wargamer, I see our hobby ageing with little new blood being drawn in (with the exception of watered down wargames like Flames of War). I don't wish to see this hobby die out down the road, but a lot of that falls on the shoulders of publishers that are not proactive in the long-term, because they have established a comfort level with their existing (limited) customer base. There is no reason at all you cannot cater to both old and new wargamers equally, but you need a degree of innovation to do so.

Jusy my .02 of course.....YMMV



k9mike -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 8:37:04 PM)

Hey Bro. I hear ya. I am on your side...They need definete improvements in this regard. Think they are just trying to save a buck. We are in a day and age of being able to get things Dled alot faster and it should be the norm. Especially like you said.....Paying Premium price.



Jevhaddah -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 8:59:31 PM)

Sigh I can only dreem of 200Kb :(

But I feel yoor pain... have yoo tried something like Traceroute or one of its more modern incarnations to see if or where they may be a bottleneck?

HTH

Cheers

gary



Jim D Burns -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 9:09:35 PM)

It’s all about profit margins and staying in business. Like it or not most Matrix games do not have mass market appeal no matter how much we diehard fans think everyone should love these kinds of games. So in the end small publisher’s like Matrix are forced to make hard decisions when it comes to profit margins because they aren’t going to be selling hundreds of thousands of units like a lot of other game genre’s do.

Sure they’d probably love to provide their customers with 1 Gig+ download rates, but then they’d be paying a high premium on a per unit sale to the download provider and would lose a lot of profit margin. In the end it might force them to go under like Talonsoft did.

Talonsoft tried to play in the big leagues and it forced them to do a lot of cheesy things like re-packaging games and selling them as new content, all in the name of trying to drive up unit sales to cover their impossibly high operating costs. Trust me their customers were a lot less happy than Matrix’s customers are because of what they had to do to try and stay in business. And in the end they failed and went under.

It’s one thing to demand top line service from our hobby providers. It’s another thing to be willing to pay for it. There just aren’t enough of us buying wargames to cover the costs for what the latest and greatest available tech might provide. Matrix would have to probably charge us double or triple what they charge now.

Jim



pmelheck1 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 9:59:42 PM)

Something else to consider. Remember that these DD sites are in the business to make money for themselves only and if their payments to developers cause the said developer to go broke what do they care there are always more developers with more copies of medal of honor clones down the road. They are also only concerned with the bottom line but only THEIR bottom line. We may not like to admit it but ours is a VERY small segment of the gaming world. Think of Wal-Mart If out of 1000 people 995 to 999 like steak X and only 1 likes steak Y Wal-Mart will sell steak X but will not even stock steak Y when room (even virtual room) is always at a premium. This is where those small mom and pop stores have stayed around selling those things that a few folks want and Wal-Mart wont stock because of sales not generating enough revenue. Matrix is one of those small mom and pop type stores. If it wasn't for them I'm sure most of these titles would have never have been developed. Just imagine telling a financial staff we need a large pile of money to make this game and when asked for what level of return they can expect being told well we hope it brakes even or if it sell very well maybe even a modest profit. Steam and all the other DD sites are not out there to make gamers happy they are in the business of making money period. If they can make gamers happy well so much the better but, when push comes to shove money will always trump idealism - as it should, they owe it to their investors. Idealistic companies generally make very good but expensive products but have very short lives. Matrix seems to try to strike a balance between idealism and profits and good on them for at least trying to make something only a very small segment want.

Some of us want to continue to play war games. Some want the cheapest possible product (understandable in today's economy for most of us) but the race to the bargain bin that some here want destroys companies.

as far as plimus is concerned well sometimes you take the good with the bad... I only to have to download my games once, if it takes 2 hours vs. 30 minutes the world will not end for me - maybe for others but not for me.



Valhuen -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 10:29:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

It’s all about profit margins and staying in business. Like it or not most Matrix games do not have mass market appeal no matter how much we diehard fans think everyone should love these kinds of games. So in the end small publisher’s like Matrix are forced to make hard decisions when it comes to profit margins because they aren’t going to be selling hundreds of thousands of units like a lot of other game genre’s do.

Sure they’d probably love to provide their customers with 1 Gig+ download rates, but then they’d be paying a high premium on a per unit sale to the download provider and would lose a lot of profit margin. In the end it might force them to go under like Talonsoft did.

Talonsoft tried to play in the big leagues and it forced them to do a lot of cheesy things like re-packaging games and selling them as new content, all in the name of trying to drive up unit sales to cover their impossibly high operating costs. Trust me their customers were a lot less happy than Matrix’s customers are because of what they had to do to try and stay in business. And in the end they failed and went under.

It’s one thing to demand top line service from our hobby providers. It’s another thing to be willing to pay for it. There just aren’t enough of us buying wargames to cover the costs for what the latest and greatest available tech might provide. Matrix would have to probably charge us double or triple what they charge now.

Jim



Actually, this is a fallacy, and a common straw-man put up in these debates. The reason market penetration is limited has nothing to do with the genre, but everything to do with the developer & publisher. Again I go back to my Paradox example, while many here may shun them, they do put out a number of detailed & involved titles such as Crusader Kings II, HOI III, EU III, etc. These games have a surprisingly large saturation given what can be seen as their "limited" appeal. All these games have learning curves more advanced than any Matrix title I have played (with the exception of WitP AE & maybe TOAWIII).

Yet because Paradox has ingratiated themselves with many DD providers, and because their games do frequently go on sale, people that would otherwise never try a turn-based historical wargame take a chance on a purchase, and many end up wanting more. This is the key here for longevity in the hobby, if games published by Matrix were more widely available (and some of the titles they carry are sold elsewhere like GamersGate usually at a more competitive price) and included a competitive pricing model, I think we would see a lot of new blood that would have otherwise been intimidated due to pricing and complexity take the chance on buying a game in which they would normally pass.



wodin -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 11:19:43 PM)

Sorry but 200 is nothing to really complain about. Maybe anything under 100 but 200 no. Mountain out of a molehill I'm afraid to say.

Infact it's laughable people are so impatient these days that 200 seems enough to warrant making a fuss over. Why don't you do something else for abit while it downloads.

I really can't take th OP seriously. Also if people on other forums moan about four times that speed we have created a generation with ADHD or something. this instant gratification is getting out of had. Maybe they are all premature due to the quest for instant gratification, who knows. aswell. I used to have wait nearly 30 mins for a tape to finish loading a game, it wasn't the end of the world you know (apart from the odd loading error 20 mins in).The saying they don't realise how good they've got it hasn't never applied more than this day and age.

Look come back and moan if your getting download rates around the 50 mark. 200, the I suggest you shut up and wait and maybe read, or draw or play something else or even watch the tellybox. Or listen to music. Lots of things out there to do you know.



Lützow -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 11:25:41 PM)

Actually, that's a weak excuse. GoG started in 2009 with a few $5,- titles, and certainly didn't sell more units than Matrix back then. Nevertheless, they had a decent shop and download speed from the beginning. I usually get 4mb - 6mb per second there. For some reason Matrix simply don't bother with building a new backend.

200k/s means 1-2mbit and is what we had like 10 years ago. Today's standard are 50-100 mbit cable/dsl lines, or even faster when you live in Asia.



Bison36 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 11:35:53 PM)

I don't know that being a small company has anything to do with it, but also don't know the cost of server/download space. However I've downloaded from John TIller Software and Battlefront's sites and I don't recall them having the same limitations.

I enjoyed going to the store to buy games also, but those days are long gone. I can still remember purchasing Talonsofts Western Front with Sea Lion expansion. Great find in the bargain bin. I paid $5. However, I don't think Matrix ever really had a box store sale aspect. So if you major sales marketing is DL then the service should be top notch.

Honestly the biggest issue I have now with the way the download service works is that the 2 dozen games I bought over the years are not availible through a normal download in the member area. I get I can save it to a disc. I have. I get I can request a new download. However the adding of downloads to my registered games was one of the selling points that was originally pushed when the new store front opened. That has never materialized.

Also I don't see an issue with a reasonable discussion on aspects members would like to see changed in the customer service area. I'm as big a fan of Matrix games as anyone, but it doesn't mean I or other customers cannot reasonably criticize them. I think especially given the premium price we regularly pay for matrix games. A price I have no issue paying to help keep developers here in business. That money spent gives me the priviledge to ask Matrix and Slitherine to look into something that would better their service.



wodin -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (7/31/2012 11:53:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Actually, that's a weak excuse. GoG started in 2009 with a few $5,- titles, and certainly didn't sell more units than Matrix back then. Nevertheless, they had a decent shop and download speed from the beginning. I usually get 4mb - 6mb per second there. For some reason Matrix simply don't bother with building a new backend.

200k/s means 1-2mbit and is what we had like 10 years ago. Today's standard are 50-100 mbit cable/dsl lines, or even faster when you live in Asia.




Hmmm.depends where you live..five years ago I had 2 mbit dsl. Now I have what really is the average Uk I think with is 10 mbit. I don't see 200 as being so slow it's worth moaning about.Also lets remember no one reaches the speed these service provider say they deliver. there have been numerous article in the papers about this and how the companies exaggerate their speeds.



planner 3 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 5:05:01 AM)

I thought going from 10mb download speed would improve when I went to 20Mb, never happened, at least not double. Seems that speed is only good when you DL from the ISP only, and you have a real fast CPU, Browser speed effects DL, the ISP is not busy and MOM and the kinder are not usng the ISP also, and don't forget the neighbor down the road, he uses it also. All these excuses are from my ISP, so I grin and bear it.[sm=comp16.gif][sm=sign0063.gif]



Jim D Burns -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 6:13:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Valhuen
Actually, this is a fallacy, and a common straw-man put up in these debates. The reason market penetration is limited has nothing to do with the genre, but everything to do with the developer & publisher. Again I go back to my Paradox example, while many here may shun them, they do put out a number of detailed & involved titles such as Crusader Kings II, HOI III, EU III, etc. These games have a surprisingly large saturation given what can be seen as their "limited" appeal. All these games have learning curves more advanced than any Matrix title I have played (with the exception of WitP AE & maybe TOAWIII).

Yet because Paradox has ingratiated themselves with many DD providers, and because their games do frequently go on sale, people that would otherwise never try a turn-based historical wargame take a chance on a purchase, and many end up wanting more. This is the key here for longevity in the hobby, if games published by Matrix were more widely available (and some of the titles they carry are sold elsewhere like GamersGate usually at a more competitive price) and included a competitive pricing model, I think we would see a lot of new blood that would have otherwise been intimidated due to pricing and complexity take the chance on buying a game in which they would normally pass.


Heh, by bringing up Paradox you prove my point. While I wouldn’t say their games are nearly as complex as most Matrix titles, they do sell to a limited genre and their business practices over the years simply proves my point. They continually release crap unfinished games and refuse to patch them more than once or twice before bundling the next patch into an “expansion” and charging us for the privilege of trying to fix their broken garbage.

Now I don’t think Paradox sets out to sell crap games out of the box, but realities of big business force their hand. They have to meet deadlines, budgets and payrolls and the company has made it a policy of selling the games on time and budget even though 90%+ of their titles aren’t ready and are full of bugs upon release.

With only one or two official patches allowed per title, games like HOI3 are left in pretty much an unplayable state, but they still sell it even after several expansions still failed to fix its issues. Fans keep paying for it hoping some day the realities of the business world will allow the game to get fixed. Of course the fact is unless the fans themselves do the work, everyone who paid for the game basically got screwed out of their money, and Paradox is happy to stick to their business plan for every game they release.

Now you may be happy with Paradox’s business model, but I far prefer Matrix and their dedicated approach to supporting their games many years after release. I’ve never heard of a hard limit placed on allowed patches for any Matrix game.

Were market penetration a truly game changing event in the business world for small genre game companies like Matrix and Paradox, then Paradox wouldn’t have such a draconian time and budget schedule and there would be more room to get things right with their games. But their track record proves it, they simply can’t afford to stretch their schedules even by a month or two. So it’s usually left up to the fans to finish their games for them.

Jim



rjh1971 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 6:13:13 AM)

Guys try installing DAP, download accelerator plus, it really speed up things, I purchased the 42,43, 44 & 45 pzcorps campaigns yesterday (before vat rises in september[:@]) and my download speed was 1,2 Mb maximum I get with my 20 Mb DSL line.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 6:14:08 AM)

I am blessed to live in one of the few areas of the southeast US who has invested heavily into fiber optics.



Valhuen -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 6:29:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Valhuen
Actually, this is a fallacy, and a common straw-man put up in these debates. The reason market penetration is limited has nothing to do with the genre, but everything to do with the developer & publisher. Again I go back to my Paradox example, while many here may shun them, they do put out a number of detailed & involved titles such as Crusader Kings II, HOI III, EU III, etc. These games have a surprisingly large saturation given what can be seen as their "limited" appeal. All these games have learning curves more advanced than any Matrix title I have played (with the exception of WitP AE & maybe TOAWIII).

Yet because Paradox has ingratiated themselves with many DD providers, and because their games do frequently go on sale, people that would otherwise never try a turn-based historical wargame take a chance on a purchase, and many end up wanting more. This is the key here for longevity in the hobby, if games published by Matrix were more widely available (and some of the titles they carry are sold elsewhere like GamersGate usually at a more competitive price) and included a competitive pricing model, I think we would see a lot of new blood that would have otherwise been intimidated due to pricing and complexity take the chance on buying a game in which they would normally pass.


Heh, by bringing up Paradox you prove my point. While I wouldn’t say their games are nearly as complex as most Matrix titles, they do sell to a limited genre and their business practices over the years simply proves my point. They continually release crap unfinished games and refuse to patch them more than once or twice before bundling the next patch into an “expansion” and charging us for the privilege of trying to fix their broken garbage.



Wow...and Matrix doesn't? Please....looking at you Crown of Glory & WWI (just off the top of my head). To say that Matrix is above reproach when it comes to quality control is being a bit disingenuous. There are few companies out there these days that regularly release polished games on day one for the PC marketplace.



Valhuen -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 6:42:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
200, the I suggest you shut up and wait and maybe read, or draw or play something else or even watch the tellybox. Or listen to music. Lots of things out there to do you know.


Transitioning to personal attacks now are we? Definitely the way to reinforce your argument......[8|]

And again.....I don't think complaining about 120kbs download rates (the average I had for today) in 2012 is a sign of "entitlement mentality", thankfully I was only downloading 2gb total (4 hours to complete). Looking at several forum threads, people attempting large downloads had their DL links suspended by Plimus because they DL's were taking over 24 hours to complete (Plimus suspends DL links after 24 hours, ironic considering that is likely how long you will be downloading a large game).

That some people find this acceptable, well reeks of the internet equivalent of "Back in my day we only got 10kbs, and you know what.....WE LIKED IT!!! Now get off my lawn!"



Aurelian -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 8:44:07 AM)

Eh, while down loading software, if it takes awhile I'll go do something else.



terje439 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 9:06:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Eh, while down loading software, if it takes awhile I'll go do something else.


Really I just play one of the allready DL'ed games, so many titles here that I have pbem games running in, so takes some time to go through them all every day.

At OP, yes, the speed could be better, but it is not awful either, and if waiting 1-2 hours for a DL to finnish is the price I have to pay to play matrixgames games, I am very happy about that. But to each his own, and by opening up this thread, you might catch the companys eye, and they will reply to it. THAT is one thing noone can say anything against, the support you get here is far and above what you get other places.


Terje



IainMcNeil -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 9:46:04 AM)

Hi guys,

we use the Amazon Cloud to host all files which is very reliable and obviously one of the biggest and best. For people having issues where are you located? Are you able to see where the bottleneck in the connection is? It may be the issue is in a link in the chain as the servers should be able to cope with the demand, but if we get more info we can look in to it and see if there is anything that can be done.

Thanks



z1812 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 1:30:42 PM)

Use a download optimizer.



parusski -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 2:25:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Use a download optimizer.


Or just exercise a LITTLE patience.

But I think Matrix is working on a new delivery system that is faster than the speed of light. Once this is in place games will be available on your computer before they are even released.



Bison36 -> RE: Plimus.....Really Matrix? (8/1/2012 3:04:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Hi guys,

we use the Amazon Cloud to host all files which is very reliable and obviously one of the biggest and best. For people having issues where are you located? Are you able to see where the bottleneck in the connection is? It may be the issue is in a link in the chain as the servers should be able to cope with the demand, but if we get more info we can look in to it and see if there is anything that can be done.

Thanks


Does the Amazon Cloud also handle the patches? I'll often have patching that will drop down to kbs and the connection will break causing an error. This is does not seem to be location dependents as its happened in several different States.




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