So, how is Afrika Korps? (Full Version)

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Grotius -> So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/7/2012 5:42:53 PM)

Anyone have any first impressions to share?



Field83 -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/7/2012 9:48:35 PM)

I have played a few scenarios so far in the campaign and having a blast so far! Love those flammpanzers [:D]
I usually don't post in the forums even though i am an avid follower. But for this new addition and the PC in general I really wan´t to say thanks for the fantastic work done so far with the panzer corps series! Great work team! Keep up the good work. Well now back to the desert, there is a fort called Tobruk that needs to be taken! [;)]



jjdenver -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/8/2012 4:39:37 AM)

I got disenchanted with this franchise after it seemed like they started making the scenarios more and more unrealistic. I want the game to be a semi-realistic situation with objectives to achieve and forces to use. But it seems that they make the scenarios more and more difficult with endless hordes of enemy units. I think there could be some balance struck to make it more like a real battle than a space invaders video game with endless hordes of enemies to defeat. That's how it felt to me anyway.

So is this version more balanced? That'd be the only way I'd want to buy it.

Thanks



Lord Zimoa -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/8/2012 11:14:58 AM)

quote:

So is this version more balanced? That'd be the only way I'd want to buy it.


I think you will like it a lot!

This is the scenario list and I guess you will like the semi-realistic path we offer in AK:

quote:

Reconnaissance in Force, Ras el Mdauuar, Brevity, Battleaxe, Dash to the Wire, Second offensive, Gazala Line, Malta, Alam Halfa, Suez Canal, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Basra, Iran, Caucasus, Arabia, East Africa, On Road to India, British India, El Alamein, Kasserine Pass, Mareth Line, Tunisian Bridgehead


On top the biggest two changes are that the AI is seriously updated and the scenarios are now dynamic, so you can get new orders or changed orders within a certain scenario, see here for a full list of changes:

http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com/site/2012/08/patch-for-panzer-corps-in-preparation-for-the-upcoming-release-of-afrika-korps/




rodney727 -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/8/2012 1:29:32 PM)

Just want to add my two cents. I have no idea what JJdenver is talking about. DCLs from 1939-1945 are well balanced and fun to play. I have played three scn so far and really like it, can't wait to go back and start 1939 again with the new units. Great job Lord, keep up the good work!



Dragoon. -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/8/2012 3:18:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Just want to add my two cents. I have no idea what JJdenver is talking about. DCLs from 1939-1945 are well balanced and fun to play. I have played three scn so far and really like it, can't wait to go back and start 1939 again with the new units. Great job Lord, keep up the good work!


I was irradiated by jjdenver post too. As someone how owns and played all 5 star Generals series including Fantasy General, Star General (yikes) and Panzer General Forever I found the Grand Campaign DLC one if not the best designed scenarios I played. I loved that they moved away from the time race of the past and how they added new innovative objectives than the same old, same old capture all victory hexes. Now you can fully enjoy a scenario without having to rush through a scenarios cutting the fun short.

The experience they made with the Grand Campaign went into Africa Corps which pushed it with new dynamic victory goals. Also Africa Korps features again voiced briefings unlike the DLC's previously.
I like the details that went into the making these scenarios. You don't have just this bunch of generic units, but many units have historical unit names.
Be ready to engage the 1st Tower Hamlets Rifles, backed by the 1st Royal Horse Artllery with your MG Bataillon 8 after you shelled them with the 55th Reggimento di Artigleria, bombed them with the fighter bombers from the X Fligerkoprs and flanking support from 27th Brescia.


BTW. I would love to see a sequel to Fantasy General including the wonderful narrated stories at the beginning of each continent/campaign.

Maloch is rabid devotee of evil and every bit as malignant as his master, the Shadowlord. Maloch's Knights, seeking the council with maniacal vengeance, commit unspeakable atrocities as they rage across Pothia, while Maloch himself impales one hundred villagers everyday the council escapes his wrath.

If your fight to destroy the Shadowlord is to have any hope, this abscess on the world must be lanced with the keen blade of righteousness before he can blight the land any further.



Lord Zimoa -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/9/2012 8:39:56 AM)

Some more first impressions of Afrika Korps at Slitherine:

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=36488



Texican -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/9/2012 4:51:36 PM)

Would be nice had it integrated into the full basic campaign game, '39 to '45. PG1 did this. Am a bit disappointed.



Lord Zimoa -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/9/2012 5:39:41 PM)

It gave us much more freedom in designing the AK campaign and give it a more unique feel, play with the map sizes, the AI, etc... so I`me very glad we did not integrate it, as AK plays now as we wanted to do in this theatre, I don`t think we could have done this at all integrating it completely with the original game.

We really wanted to give all the fronts special attention, in the first Grand Campaigns DLC`s we used bigger corps, larger maps, more onslaught focusing on the East. For Afrika we wanted to create that specific desert warfare with open flanks, supply problems, the harsh elements and weather playing a part, you need a whole different corps layout compared to battling in Mother Russia... For the Allied we will go for smaller corps, smaller maps, more diverse units, more air elements, hence the reason why the next Western branched of the Grand Campaign are done only now...

The Grand Campaigns follow more on a historical path, in every big expansions, as in AK, we added more alternative history scenarios. So a good mix.

In other words; splitting it all up a bit more was one the main features we think make the Panzer Corps series more versatile and dynamic.



Rudankort -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/9/2012 7:17:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican

Would be nice had it integrated into the full basic campaign game, '39 to '45. PG1 did this. Am a bit disappointed.


I don't think it is fair to compare PG1 Africa path (which in case of major victories consisted of 2 desert scens - North Africa and Middle East) with AK campaign, which is almost ten times longer than that.



Texican -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/9/2012 10:26:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort


quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican

Would be nice had it integrated into the full basic campaign game, '39 to '45. PG1 did this. Am a bit disappointed.


I don't think it is fair to compare PG1 Africa path (which in case of major victories consisted of 2 desert scens - North Africa and Middle East) with AK campaign, which is almost ten times longer than that.


Wasn't the issue.

In PG1, my units from '39 could take Poland, France, the early blitzkriegs, then choose to go to Africa (or Russia), then pop back into the mainland European campaign afterwards and get in the full war.

In this expansion, I can do the Afrika Korps expansion (which, by the way, is playing out like a very linear story, from my perspective), but that's that. No pre-Afrika or post-Afrika participation for my units, from what I can tell.

This expansion, IMO, leans more towards PG2 than PG1 in design. Lots of "smaller picture" scenarios in sequence rather than the sweep and scope (and options) of PG1.

Some will love this expansion. Personally, I see it as an entertaining once-through sort of experience and cannot see playing through it twice.

However, I do look forward to what Slitherine can do with an "Allied Corps" type game, and hope they keep the focus a bit more strategic and make it a '39 - '45 experience ('42 - '45 for Americans, of course.)



Rudankort -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/9/2012 11:16:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican
Wasn't the issue.

In PG1, my units from '39 could take Poland, France, the early blitzkriegs, then choose to go to Africa (or Russia), then pop back into the mainland European campaign afterwards and get in the full war.

In this expansion, I can do the Afrika Korps expansion (which, by the way, is playing out like a very linear story, from my perspective), but that's that. No pre-Afrika or post-Afrika participation for my units, from what I can tell.

This expansion, IMO, leans more towards PG2 than PG1 in design. Lots of "smaller picture" scenarios in sequence rather than the sweep and scope (and options) of PG1.

Some will love this expansion. Personally, I see it as an entertaining once-through sort of experience and cannot see playing through it twice.

However, I do look forward to what Slitherine can do with an "Allied Corps" type game, and hope they keep the focus a bit more strategic and make it a '39 - '45 experience ('42 - '45 for Americans, of course.)


Playing Africa as part of a bigger thing is cool, but at the same time you miss some interesting opportunities, like using italians as proper members of your core. I agree that it is a question of taste, but for us it was not an option to release AK expansion as a couple of scenarios extending the main campaign. From an expansion like this people expect to get a lot of hours of gameplay, which only a big campaign can provide. And no, it is not closer to PG2, simply because the scale is still PG1-ish. Many AK scenarios cover entire countries, culminating in India. It is still a grand scale campaign. As for branches, PzC experience has proved that they do not improve replayability of the game for 90% of players. They just play the primary victory branch. You are free to disagree, but it is a fact. Hence our decision to concentrate on this primary branch in AK. However, it still includes alternative branches for people who like to make choices, or take an occasional defeat in order to go down the historical branch, ending in german defeat.

We might think about extending main campaign with a few Africa scens in a free patch, or when we get to Gold version of PzC, but this is a thing for the future.



Texican -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/10/2012 12:29:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort


quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican
Wasn't the issue.

In PG1, my units from '39 could take Poland, France, the early blitzkriegs, then choose to go to Africa (or Russia), then pop back into the mainland European campaign afterwards and get in the full war.

In this expansion, I can do the Afrika Korps expansion (which, by the way, is playing out like a very linear story, from my perspective), but that's that. No pre-Afrika or post-Afrika participation for my units, from what I can tell.

This expansion, IMO, leans more towards PG2 than PG1 in design. Lots of "smaller picture" scenarios in sequence rather than the sweep and scope (and options) of PG1.

Some will love this expansion. Personally, I see it as an entertaining once-through sort of experience and cannot see playing through it twice.

However, I do look forward to what Slitherine can do with an "Allied Corps" type game, and hope they keep the focus a bit more strategic and make it a '39 - '45 experience ('42 - '45 for Americans, of course.)



We might think about extending main campaign with a few Africa scens in a free patch, or when we get to Gold version of PzC, but this is a thing for the future.


That would be great; please do that. The big draw for me to the Panzer General (Corps) types of games is persistence; going form PZ I's to III's to Panthers to Tigers to experimental stuff. I like a long campaign.

Played some more. Overall, a good expansion, very standalone, but captures the unpredicatibility and chaos of the early North African battles.



terje439 -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/10/2012 4:04:45 PM)

Just a few questions about Africa Corps;
-Am I doomed to lose the war?
(just finished the -45 dlc, and thought it somewhat "funny" that although I won at Stalingrad, won again at Stalingrad, won at Kursk etc etc I was still ending up loosing the war. I see why it was done, but still...)
-Will I face hordes and hordes of somewhat uber-units in the end? (14 strength guards...)
-Is there an end game summary? Missed this in the going east DLCs. Would be nice to have a score sheet at the end, stating you lost this ammount of the various units while killing this ammount etc)
-Will I be jumped by "hey we just appeared out of thin air"-units here as well?

Do not get me wrong, love the game and the DLCs (well apart from a few scns), just want to make sure wether or not this is something I need NOW or down the line.


Terje



Lord Zimoa -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/10/2012 4:33:05 PM)

To be honest most of your questions you will find lurking to all the updates we implemented:

Panzer Corps: Afrika Korps update list

In Afrika Korps, you can play through 24 new scenarios and if you choose the a-historical path be able to invade Britain's crown jewel: India, so winning is possible.

The most important difference with the DLC is the introducing of dynamic campaigns, you will have a far greater amount of different objectives and within the scenarios you will get text messages updating you with news, giving you new orders, hinting you about upcoming events, giving you new objectives, etc.... There is a new button in the main UI, so you can re-read your orders and it makes all the ssenario much more organic and dynamic.

The scale of the battles, the size of the corps and the AI are more adapted to fighting in your new environment, sandstorms, narrow passages, well defended spear-points as Tobruk, oil fields, minefields supply depots, secret agents to be rescued... give it a shot I`me very sure you will feel the difference.



Texican -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/10/2012 4:34:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Just a few questions about Africa Corps;
-Am I doomed to lose the war?
(just finished the -45 dlc, and thought it somewhat "funny" that although I won at Stalingrad, won again at Stalingrad, won at Kursk etc etc I was still ending up loosing the war. I see why it was done, but still...)
-Will I face hordes and hordes of somewhat uber-units in the end? (14 strength guards...)
-Is there an end game summary? Missed this in the going east DLCs. Would be nice to have a score sheet at the end, stating you lost this ammount of the various units while killing this ammount etc)
-Will I be jumped by "hey we just appeared out of thin air"-units here as well?

Do not get me wrong, love the game and the DLCs (well apart from a few scns), just want to make sure wether or not this is something I need NOW or down the line.


Terje


I've not played, yet, to the end, but I can answer a few of these. Yes, the campaign track shows you can end up in India (so this is Victory).

Early on, I have not faced hordes of uber units, but this could very well be in the end Tunisian Bridgehead scenario. I do find the A.I. more capable, and the early battles play out like the chaotic, to and fro, historical battles, where you take initiative, get caught off balance, have to react on the fly, etc...

Overall, I would say it plays better than Panzer Corps and is more historically accurate in terms of feel. It does not, however, appear to be part of Panzer Corps, but more of a peer game, an Afrika Korps version of Panzer Corps. Disappointed me at first, but now I am warming up to the game.

Panzer Corps is beer and pretzels gaming, where Afrika Korps approaches more historical realism, almost outside the beer and pretzels gaming category.

(Oh, and don't spend all your prestige points pumping up your units at the start of a scenario. There will be times when you have zero points and the battles go on and on and on. Maybe you know better than to do this, but I found myself with depleted units many a time.)



PzB74 -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/17/2012 12:31:55 PM)

As an old PG hand I had to have a look at Afrika Korps!
- Must say I like it [:)]

I immediately put it on "General" as I found the default settings in the previous games to easy.
Right, I never got to the Nile... Was duped into chasing supply dumps and my core units were picked off one by one without ever getting a chance to replace them! Well done :p)

The realisation that killing enemy units does not grant you prestige was sobering!.)
The cost of upgrading a 3 star PzIIIN to a much needed PzIVG equals the cost of buying a new one.

Good to have the voice over back in the briefings as well, but I still miss the original voice!
"An earrrlier completion however, will make even more resources available for you!" That horrible German accented voice is epic [8D]

New units are kewl, also the addition of more rewards and skills - and also having italian core units!

On the down side: I still struggle to properly understand the victory objectives.
Those small green dots with circles around them..I attacked the wrong hexes and misunderstood quite a few times.

The AI is also loaded with troops; even in Kasserine the "Green" Allies had 13-14 sized uber strength units and numerous high quality tank destroyers and AT units that historically were not available to them. Did not enjoy lvl8 entrenched units there, had 1 enemy strength point left in Tebessa and had just reached the northern objective when the 18 turns were up.

I realised that in some scenarios, like Kasserine, it´s better to sit back and preserver your forces, cause wearing em down for a marginal win or a loss will not gain you anything. The Mareth line and Tunis Bridgeheads were awful - with 19 core units including PzIIIs and Me109s I was completely overrun by the dozens of allied tank and air units. I had a Tiger and a Ju188 left when I got to Tunis...

So I still consider whether to try again on "General" or turn it down a notch [;)]

A side note: Back in 1997 we ran a War Gaming club called the Generals Guild; we had 3 ladders.
Panzer General, Fantasy General and Steel Panthers. We received sponsorship in the way or prizes from SSI (games, gadgets etc) for the PBEM tournaments we arranged. From 32 to 128 players. Those were the golden days of pbm! [8D]




Josh -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/17/2012 1:22:54 PM)

Must say I like it too, and that's interesting because since the original PG I moved on to the more grognard wargames. So even for the more hardcore wargamer this game can be fun.
The fact that you don't get Prestige when killing enemy units... is a bit sobering indeed, sometimes I'm desperately low on Prestige and killing enemy units doesn't bring any relief. [X(]
Love the addition of "reward" units and captured units, a well thought out idea IMO.

@PzB; "Good to have the voice over back in the briefings as well, but I still miss the original voice!
"An earrrlier completion however, will make even more resources available for you!" That horrible German accented voice is epic [8D]"

You're right, that was classic, even now I can hear that somewhat hysterical Keitel voice [:D]

"A side note: Back in 1997 we ran a War Gaming club called the Generals Guild; we had 3 ladders.
Panzer General, Fantasy General and Steel Panthers"
yeah and guess which one is the most wanted now /sigh [:(] 
Up next are some Western DLC's for the PC game, heck who knows even a Fantasy General remake... dunno about that one though because if my memory serves me right that one didn't sell that well.
A remake of Steel Panthers on the other hand...



PzB74 -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/17/2012 7:16:23 PM)

Yeah, I have to start over saving 500 prestige before each battle to have enough for repairs.
AI got so many tanks that when my 4-5 elite tanks have been reduced to low strength they way 2 often gets killed because I can't provide replacements.
- Problem is that after fixing units and bringing up to strength (no fix after battles anymore) there are is not enough prestige to buy new units or upgrade obsolescent ones.

Finding this balance is really a challenge!

Anyone here that got tips for how to win at General or higher difficulty setting?
I refuse to back down [:'(]



Josh -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (8/17/2012 7:55:46 PM)

Tips? No more than "combined arms" and "recon", usually that takes time and time you sometimes you don't have, so then it boils down to try and error, and then retry again.
There are cheats too... not fond of cheats as they usually ruin a game, but there's one that is helpful, and should be implemented in the game as an option IMHO, and that is "reform units". When activated before the scenario, your killed core units reappear in the "reserve" list with 0 points so they are still there and not lost... meaning you still have their Exp, maybe heroes too I don't know, never used it myself.
Slitherine's forum is a bit more active concerning tips and so forth, maybe check out there.
And indeed gamebalance is very hard to find, and the problem lies in the fact that a player really can't afford any core losses at all! A 4-5 star unit is irreplaceable. So that's where the "reform units" come in handy.



Texican -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (9/20/2012 1:49:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Yeah, I have to start over saving 500 prestige before each battle to have enough for repairs.
AI got so many tanks that when my 4-5 elite tanks have been reduced to low strength they way 2 often gets killed because I can't provide replacements.
- Problem is that after fixing units and bringing up to strength (no fix after battles anymore) there are is not enough prestige to buy new units or upgrade obsolescent ones.

Finding this balance is really a challenge!

Anyone here that got tips for how to win at General or higher difficulty setting?
I refuse to back down [:'(]


Basically, don't play like you're Rommel (or Patton), but be more the tactician/strategist Montgomery was. The former (especially Rommel) squandered his troops just to gain another mile he couldn't hold anyway. Keep your units healthly, alive, and avoid losing strength points unnecessarily. I find that moving units next to the enemy will find them attacking me. And if I have backed my units up with mobile artillery, they take the hits that would have cost me strength points to inflict, were I attacking. (Frankly, I think they ought to patch this and make entrenched infantry almost never counterattack, especially ones sitting on victory hexes.)



jwduquette1 -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (9/20/2012 3:29:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican


quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Yeah, I have to start over saving 500 prestige before each battle to have enough for repairs.
AI got so many tanks that when my 4-5 elite tanks have been reduced to low strength they way 2 often gets killed because I can't provide replacements.
- Problem is that after fixing units and bringing up to strength (no fix after battles anymore) there are is not enough prestige to buy new units or upgrade obsolescent ones.

Finding this balance is really a challenge!

Anyone here that got tips for how to win at General or higher difficulty setting?
I refuse to back down [:'(]


Basically, don't play like you're Rommel (or Patton), but be more the tactician/strategist Montgomery was. The former (especially Rommel) squandered his troops just to gain another mile he couldn't hold anyway. Keep your units healthly, alive, and avoid losing strength points unnecessarily. I find that moving units next to the enemy will find them attacking me. And if I have backed my units up with mobile artillery, they take the hits that would have cost me strength points to inflict, were I attacking. (Frankly, I think they ought to patch this and make entrenched infantry almost never counterattack, especially ones sitting on victory hexes.)


I Agree. Self-propelled artillery is a pretty crucial commodity for the Afrika Korps. Back up your front line units with an artillery unit in hexes directly behind them. If you have a friendly arty unit next to a friendly unit that’s being attacked, the arty unit\units get a priority defensive fire before the attacker gets to shot. This helps blunt British attacks and really reduces your own casualties (maybe too much). I've gotten into the habit of forming "boxes" around a self-propelled artillery unit. Flanks are less crucial when playing an AI. Defensive arty fire is way more important than flanks.

I also feel like steadily building up your corps Luftwaffe units is pretty crucial to winning scenarios. The RAF gets stronger and bigger with each scenario. From trial and error, I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to focus my air unit prestige expenditures on buying Bf109s and maybe one Stuka unit. One or two mobile flak units amongst your corps units isn’t a bad idea. I feel like I need to wrestle the sky away from the AI as quickly as possible in each scenario. If you lose control of the air, the AI will grind your ground units up with incessant air to ground attacks.





dsawan -> RE: So, how is Afrika Korps? (10/21/2012 4:57:15 AM)

El Agheilaaaaaaaaa!

88's in action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFFWhHlqnGU




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