Cleric 'sowed seeds of Australian Islamic state'

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Kraut -> Cleric 'sowed seeds of Australian Islamic state' (12/10/2002 8:14:57 AM)
Cleric 'sowed seeds of Australian Islamic state' By Linda Morris December 10 2002 The suspected spiritual leader of Jemaah Islamiah, Abu Bakar Bashir, preached of establishing an Islamic state in Australia in his sermons to Sydney Muslims. In an audio-recording believed to feature his voice, and obtained by the Herald, the hardline cleric gives his broad support to jihad - the term for struggle - to bring Islamic law to the world, particularly Indonesia. He backs conflict and war in defence of the faith and says it is an "abasement" for Muslims to live in a "non-believing nation": http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/09/1039379788932.html

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (12/10/2002 7:49:26 PM)
Hmmm I hope they like the outback eh. Australia has the world's largest concentration of poisonous snakes 75% of species eh. They have all manner of nasty bugs there too. Then there is the desert hmm wonderfous place to try and hide. Oh the swamps, nice way to keep the crocs happy eating dumb terrorists. And of course the aborigines, I am sure they are willing to give up their land claim for the muslim cause. Outback Australia is the only place on earth I can think of that is nastier than northern Canada or northern Russia (and still worth considering). The depths of the Amazon or the interior of new Gunea are not what I would call practical locations eh.

Big Bill -> (12/11/2002 8:24:28 AM)
I wonder what it will take for the rest of the world to wake up and step up to this latest threat to civilization. And I really wonder where the " moderate peaceful Muslim's" are??? If your not with the terrorests than why aren't you speaking out??!!Where are you??!! I live in New York and work in manhatten, I'm with every kind of ethnic person you can think of and have no ill feelings to any of them but i'm really getting uncomfortable with how the local Muslim population keeps silent on all of this murdering of innocent people in the name of Allah. Really make's me wonder.................

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (12/11/2002 8:40:47 AM)
Ok put it like this. You are christian, and a christian looney has just flown two planes into the towers. Now what would make you want to be "noticed" as a "christian" while surrounded by muslims that want christians to explain themselves for this barbarity? What makes me uncomfortable, is how it's not just muslim loonies, its christian loonies, hindu loonies, new age loonies, and in general religious loonies. We all have them people, your group their group my group. We are surrounded by loonies. The civilized world is far from "civilized" but we sure have some cool technology.

Twotribes -> (12/11/2002 5:48:26 PM)
There IS a difference between christian and muslim teachings. While it is true christians had a violent past, it is in the past. The Majority of all christian leaders expouse peacful co exsistance with all other religions. They call for missionaries to convert the non believers, not wars and murder. And no state is RUN by a specific religious christian leader. The muslim faith has ZERO leaders calling for an end to terror or killing. It has a goodly number of leaders calling FOR Jihad. The best you get from the so called moderates is silence. Until the religion is willing to join the rest of the world in calling for an end to terrorism and murder, then I wont classify it has a religion of Peace.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (12/11/2002 9:19:15 PM)
Hmmm, I know where this is going, but i don't reall care to some extent. Christians are just as nasty as the rest, just as fanatical as the rest, just as capable as the rest. The key weakness in your statement was "majority". The majority of the muslim world is as horrified by the Bin Ladden version of Islamic teachings, as I and the christian world are disgusted with the KKK, Neo Nazis, and other right wing militias (of which you can find plenty if you but look). Your brand of intolerance is exactly what I am talking about by the way. It is also why I told the christian world (I was born one) to get stuffed. I am not an aetheist, I believe in god. I have zero interst though, in being a "religious person". Religion teaches indifference, intolerence, and hate (like you do towards the muslim people). Two Tribes, you are an excellent reason why I don't wish to be a christian. Administrator please move this thread to Art of War, it's stinking up the General forum.

Twotribes -> (12/12/2002 4:30:51 AM)
Explain how it is a majority when NONE speak up. Where is the outrage about the planes, as I recall the majority of the coverage was muslim ( granted the extremests) shooting and dancing in the street. But it also was across the whole area. People that are outraged, SAY something. All we have gotten from the leaders of the Muslim religion is at best silence. They still have leaders calling for confrontation and still calling for muslims NOT to live in non muslim states. And I dont mean JUST the so called terrorists either. When you get a so called apology or a statement that it might have been wrong, it is ALWAYS accompanied by a BUT......followed by why it was ok to do it.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (12/12/2002 4:47:33 AM)
The muslims faith doesn't owe you squat Two Tribes. Bin Ladden owes you, owes the world. He is not teaching Islam.

Big Bill -> (12/12/2002 5:08:56 AM)
Sorry Sarge, but you sound as prejiticed against orginized religion as the radical Muslims are in miss guided defense of their " faith " Two Tribes ask's a ligitiment question that I have asked many times " Where is the moderate Muslim outrage against this killing of innocents???!!! " I'm also a non practiceing Christian but it appeares you are obveiously harboring some past terrible miss deeds done to you in the past to come out like that on Mr. Two Tribes. I'm just a little suprised at you Sarge, I've read your post's for over a year with interest and enjoyment, some times strong views but thats ok, Give the same credit and respect to Two Tribes opinions please. I finally saw my first Muslim artical today in NY Newsday written by King Abdullah of Jordan speaking out against radical Muslims, we need to see more of it.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (12/12/2002 6:20:29 AM)
No I harbour no past misdeeds directed at me personally. Well aside from being forced to live on a planet that is knee deep in people who are "right" and the rest are going to hell for being "wrong". I would not say I was "prejudiced" though, I have no favour for any of them. I am uniformly and equally disgusted with all of them. Bin Ladden is a muslims personal shame. There is plenty of catholic priests out there doing catholicsm grave harm. No shortage of anglicans doing their best to keep up with catholic priests. Then there is the people such as say our reform Party in Canada's Mr Stockwell Day, a man who is just to plain scary to ever expect to get elected to anything of importance. The oh so righteous persons on tv each sunday morning so convinced no one but they could possibly have the answers. People being killed by the 3 digit sums in India because they "ain't one of us". People being killed because they make the mistake of being associated with a poorly thought out statement by another of their community (some people take Mohammed to seriously). No I am not going to fret if the Muslim community doesn't start immediately making a fuss. I would rather like to see the world's religions start becoming about freedom to think how a person wants to, without fear of being killed for not following the party line. I am NOT a non practicing Christian. I am not a quasi christian. I was born one, and in the course of time, have decided being one has no value in my life. I am not non denominational. I have no connection with any religious group whatsover. I do not go to any church and mouth words out of a book of highly questionable material. In short, I believe in "God" simply because I think God exists. But he is not any variant of God you will hear of in anyone's church. No I don't own, the truth, I don't have all the truth. I am not convinced I am right so much so you could not possible be right. But I am not a supporter of the party line. I make my own decisions about what constitutes "good".

Big Bill -> (12/12/2002 8:29:20 AM)
Maybe we should all keep to our hobbie and leave politics and religeon to another forum ;)

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (12/12/2002 9:27:10 AM)
Works for me Big Bill, I don't get much out of talking politics or religion. Wargaming is much more satisfying.

Big Bill -> (12/12/2002 10:14:11 AM)
:) :)

retkit -> (12/12/2002 6:23:00 PM)
as a Muslim , I am bound to say that there is a lot of misunderstading about the use of 'Islamic' terrorists. I am turkish, and we are the only democracy in the world ( checkout a historical source ), women can vote since 1925, abortion is legal since 1930s, and I dont know what else makes a country democractic. I am sure there will be challenges to this argument but at least we can select a socialist party and a muslim democrat party to power out of 8 others and noone raises a second thought for the political will of the people. All those acts of terrorism under the name of Allah are committed by Arabs and Arab financed sources. Please note this huge difference, and know that there are 'peacefull' people in the islamic domain. Before u do anything read a book please. However other side must doa bit of soul searching as well whether they are ready hear those calls. What kind of a peace is called for. ps. about the australian islamic state , please guys do not waste your time by listening and debating such bs as the guys who speaks about it. be serious please.

Fred98 -> (12/13/2002 4:19:28 AM)
To us Australians, the most important question about Islam � how many holidays do we get :)

troopie -> (12/13/2002 4:29:38 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98 [B]To us Australians, the most important question about Islam � how many holidays do we get :) [/B][/QUOTE] Beer is forbidden. Do the holidays really matter? troopie

retkit -> (12/13/2002 4:11:09 PM)
actually quite a lot ... �slamic holidays are plenty - maybe another reason for the backwardness of these countries. but it kool to go skiing in the winter for a full 9 days 7+2, actually compared to other religions we get upto 4x more holidays is australia cheap for holidaying ? I want to come there for a week or two - the only populated continent I havent been to ...

retkit -> (12/13/2002 4:13:07 PM)
who says beer is forbidden ! I drink a lot of beer and I am a good Muslim.... Actually some of the Turkish dark beers are quite good ( well not as good as Guinnes but well... )

Cap Mandrake -> (12/14/2002 5:18:12 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by retkit [B] All those acts of terrorism under the name of Allah are committed by Arabs and Arab financed sources. Please note this huge difference, and know that there are 'peacefull' people in the islamic domain. Before u do anything read a book please. [/B][/QUOTE]

Cap Mandrake -> (12/14/2002 5:38:19 AM)
Blast... I hit submit to early. Retkit...all islamic terrorists are arab or arab-financed??? What about the Iranians, Chechens, Pakistanis, Malaysians, Indonesians or Phillipino-muslims who espouse terrorism as a means to establish Islamic states? None of these groups consider themselves Arabs. Do you really think this all started with Saudi oil money? It is PRECISELY the fundamentalist Islamic notion of a "pure" Islamic state under Sharia (Islamic law) and free of "infidels" that fuels these 11th century nut-cases. It doesn't help that were it not for oil money, all the Islamic states would be economic basket cases instead of just 80 %. With these extremists, Turkey does not count as an Islamic state...in fact if they succeed, more of these friendly chaps will be heading Turkey's way. Just once I would like to see an Islamic spokesperson or Imam state simply that "the killing of the innocent in the name of Islam is a sin" AND JUST STOP THERE.. Inevitably, however, there is the following clause "but the West must understand the level of anger in the Muslim world about the.....(choose your cause..Palestinians, Kashmir, the Shah, infidel soldiers in the land of the Prophet etc etc) BTW Bill.....if there is a future Islamic State of Australia....you can take the entire month of Ramadan off if you work in a fast food restaurant ;)

retkit -> (12/16/2002 2:57:22 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cap Mandrake [B]Blast... I hit submit to early. Retkit...all islamic terrorists are arab or arab-financed??? What about the Iranians, Chechens, Pakistanis, Malaysians, Indonesians or Phillipino-muslims who espouse terrorism as a means to establish Islamic states? None of these groups consider themselves Arabs. Do you really think this all started with Saudi oil money? It is PRECISELY the fundamentalist Islamic notion of a "pure" Islamic state under Sharia (Islamic law) and free of "infidels" that fuels these 11th century nut-cases. It doesn't help that were it not for oil money, all the Islamic states would be economic basket cases instead of just 80 %. With these extremists, Turkey does not count as an Islamic state...in fact if they succeed, more of these friendly chaps will be heading Turkey's way. Just once I would like to see an Islamic spokesperson or Imam state simply that "the killing of the innocent in the name of Islam is a sin" AND JUST STOP THERE.. Inevitably, however, there is the following clause "but the West must understand the level of anger in the Muslim world about the.....(choose your cause..Palestinians, Kashmir, the Shah, infidel soldiers in the land of the Prophet etc etc) BTW Bill.....if there is a future Islamic State of Australia....you can take the entire month of Ramadan off if you work in a fast food restaurant ;) [/B][/QUOTE] Actually, YES. Saudi backed terror goes a long way. I would have added Iranian efforts but they are another case as well as Chechens. But I still stand on the same ground , Arabs are to blame for the mess. Each civilization has its unique way of fighting a war , and theirs is the terrorism. It i s very much like the V2, doesnt kill that much but demoralizes out of its physical proportion. I agree about Turkey being the next target. With those European 'friends', at our back, we do need some strong support. In fact Bin Laden counted us with the Israel claiming that we have to be 'rehabilitated'. ( actually, given a free hand turks will be happy to re-educate their arabs once more , apparently they sort of forgot their past - I mean about democratic ways of government - they just never grasped the idea of a centralized government) Actually, this is all British mistake. arabs got their freedom from a lottery , they never deserved it and they probably never will. In fact, going like this they will simply become extinct because of the social evolution. :rolleyes: bw. noone takes the Ramadan off even if they work ina restaurant, we just eat later.... the cool thing is the ramadan festivities, 4.5 days of vacation followed by another 5 days 2 months later for Abraham's sacrifice ( or whatever it is called )

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (12/16/2002 8:00:44 PM)
How about this for a comment. Islam Judaism and Christianity all come from the same roots essentially. Now when you consider the much bandied accuracy of the Bible, when you stop to realise that genuine verifiable historical accounts are unable to even verify Abraham even existed (half of the people IN the Bible don't appear to exist OUTSIDE of the Bible). What we have is a world, that is largely obsessed with killing each other, over interpretations of a religion, created by people that never existed in some cases. As such, I could care less if you say it's the fault of Arabs, world wide Muslim extremists, Christian loonies, Catholics, or Zionists (I left some variations out, but you get the point. These people all hate each other with a passion. They all KNOW the other groups are heathens. And every last one of them, are following fairy tales to destruction. I think we should outlaw the whole lot of them until they can practice their beliefs in a manner that says they understand the core of their religion in the first place. God never wanted anyone to kill anyone.

Culiacan Mexico -> (12/16/2002 9:48:42 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by retkit [B]I agree about Turkey being the next target. With those European 'friends', at our back, we do need some strong support. [/B][/QUOTE]:D [QUOTE][B] In fact Bin Laden counted us with the Israel claiming that we have to be 'rehabilitated'. ( actually, given a free hand turks will be happy to re-educate their arabs once more , apparently they sort of forgot their past�[/B][/QUOTE]:D That WW1, sure made a mess of things.

Cap Mandrake -> (12/16/2002 11:03:06 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by retkit [B] Actually, this is all British mistake. arabs got their freedom from a lottery , they never deserved it and they probably never will. In fact, going like this they will simply become extinct because of the social evolution. :rolleyes: bw. noone takes the Ramadan off even if they work ina restaurant, we just eat later.... [/B][/QUOTE] retkit...apparently the political correctness wave hasn't reached Turkey ;) And if you are still ticked off about the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire...you need to get over it....what do you expect when you name a whole empire after a footstool. But what we really want to know is are you guys gonna let us use Incirlik to attack Iraq? And I was joking about the Ramadan/restaurant thing.

retkit -> (12/17/2002 2:18:08 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cap Mandrake [B]retkit...apparently the political correctness wave hasn't reached Turkey ;) And if you are still ticked off about the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire...you need to get over it....what do you expect when you name a whole empire after a footstool. But what we really want to know is are you guys gonna let us use Incirlik to attack Iraq? And I was joking about the Ramadan/restaurant thing. [/B][/QUOTE] stool was named after the empire and it was a coffee table essentially. besides I am not ticked off. it was kaputt anyway. but I guess even when they were going they mide a fine job of it, some of the battles in the west and east are actually quite interesting.

retkit -> (12/17/2002 2:48:14 PM)
interested in a game ? please reply to [email]oaltinyay@cyberpark.com.tr[/email]

Noodleboy -> My two noodles' worth (12/18/2002 2:42:43 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Twotribes [B]Explain how it is a majority when NONE speak up. Where is the outrage about the planes, as I recall the majority of the coverage was muslim ( granted the extremests) shooting and dancing in the street. But it also was across the whole area... [/B][/QUOTE] Sorry for going back a bit but (yes, i know you mention the 'but' later on!) don't forget that in Gaza and the West Bank, 600 Palestiniand went to give blood as a result of watching 11 September on TV. They wouldn't show that on CNN though... :rolleyes:

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