Stopping the Juggernaut (Full Version)

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vaspasian -> Stopping the Juggernaut (8/22/2012 12:15:24 PM)

I (allied) have just been completely whooped by my brother (IJ). Several things hapened and I wondered if anybody had some hints/comments...

1. China went very badly - True, I didn't pay enough attention in the crucial first couple of months of the war but does anyone know how to help hold up the onslaught - as it seems to be the primary objective in the early part of the war of my Brother's Strategy? The Chinese seem to just run around setting themselves on fire...

2. Is it in the allies interest to engage very early on with KB?

3. If IJ decide that they must gain as much ground in China and India before the US get their act together - how can the British hold onto thousands of miles of coastline?

4. Stacking limits - what do people think to being able to have 56 units in one hex?

5. Is there anyway the allies can affect production?

6. Torpedoes - I agree with having unreliable torps for the allies 'on' - but it had me chewing the carpet when a sub expends ALL of it's torps without success in one engagement - Is it true they had a 80% dud rate? It seems very harsh and surely you would have some discrepancy within batches?? Anyway to help counteract his in the early part of the war?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.



Lokasenna -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/22/2012 4:34:46 PM)

I'll answer what I can...

1) Where was he pushing you back/what were his objectives? Was he using restricted units from Manchukuo or Korea without purchasing them? I mean, I imagine the IJA in the right hands probably can accomplish a lot in China, even if you have a house rule that says units must be purchased before marching over borders, but after taking the coastal areas I also imagine that it's exceedingly difficult to get Changsha and beyond without shipping in units from the Home Islands. Especially if your destroyed Chinese units have respawned already.

3) One option may be to evacuate the unrestricted forces from Singapore early on, if you can, and send them to the Burma/India area. If your opponent has decided on a Burma/India focus early on, you can send the USN CVs over to help - keep them close to the coast and you should have LBA cover if KB shows up, especially if you successfully saved the RAF units from Singapore (and don't have them in Java).

4) A 23-mile radius is a pretty large area. As long as the supplies and support are around the units, it's physically possible to fit a lot of people and equipment in that space. Most mid-sized US cities, for example, are 10-20 miles across, and contain hundreds of thousands of people. I am sure that if you browse some AARs, people will have implemented stacking limits or something similar.

5) No - you can basically just turn industries on or off (except light, which is always on). Although I am told, for the few on map aircraft production facilities that you do have, that if you don't have enough Heavy Industry points then the factories won't produce. I always turn off the HI in Australia, for example, so that it doesn't eat up my fuel, but leave everything else alone.

6) While I don't think the historical dud rate was 80%, it was pretty high (I haven't been able to find any research on the subject). I remember reading Dick O'Kane's book on Wahoo when I was younger and he seemed infuriated by the number of torpedoes that struck their targets but failed to explode. I also remember mention of the magnetic exploder simply not working as well.

EDIT: Just found this - http://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo-troubles-during-world-war-ii.htm, which says "at least 70% unreliable", however I'm not sure that's a rate of failure or a percentage of the equipment that just didn't work properly. The details of how/why the torpedoes failed are there as well.


What was the date/score of the game, out of curiosity?



Alfred -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/22/2012 6:18:49 PM)

Read this thread for some guidance.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2785344&mpage=1&key=allied%2Cstrategy�

Alfred



vaspasian -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/24/2012 12:03:58 AM)

Lokasenna, Alfred - Thankyou.

All makes a lot of sense. Ta.



vaspasian -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/24/2012 12:15:18 AM)

Lokasenna,

I conceded. Partly ignorance, partly stupidity - partly having 300 days of being hit over the head with a wet fish plus my adversary is of imperial class.



RogerJNeilson -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/24/2012 8:14:30 AM)

There are lots of little flea bites that you can stick the Empire with from early on. None of these even approach the kicking you will get from the nasties.... They do however slow and disrupt the juggernaut and with luck you can hinder the momentum.

My own view is that i roll in a ball and wait for the kicking to end, which it will. I console myself to the fact that at some stage I'll be the one doing the kicking, will inflict much greater damage when its my turn, and there is always the possibility that the Empire is so busy trying to kick you very very hard indeed they leave themselves unguarded and you can land a nasty blow or two.

Any damage to any shipping is good, any damage to the jap CAs is a real source of joy.

Its about a mindset. Don't get disheartened. Think of the expansion as being like a balloon, the more it inflates the more it becomes vulnerable to a puncture and collapse.


Encourage them to think they can invade everywhere, inject them with 'victory disease' and wait you turn to really show what a kicking feels like.

Roger



Empire101 -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/24/2012 8:58:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What was the date/score of the game, out of curiosity?


This was the final score:-

[image]local://upfiles/29250/AF74129D47E64C9E852373BEF3E46281.jpg[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Nielson 3
There are lots of little flea bites that you can stick the Empire with from early on. None of these even approach the kicking you will get from the nasties.... They do however slow and disrupt the juggernaut and with luck you can hinder the momentum.

My own view is that i roll in a ball and wait for the kicking to end, which it will. I console myself to the fact that at some stage I'll be the one doing the kicking, will inflict much greater damage when its my turn, and there is always the possibility that the Empire is so busy trying to kick you very very hard indeed they leave themselves unguarded and you can land a nasty blow or two.

Any damage to any shipping is good, any damage to the jap CAs is a real source of joy.

Its about a mindset. Don't get disheartened. Think of the expansion as being like a balloon, the more it inflates the more it becomes vulnerable to a puncture and collapse.


Encourage them to think they can invade everywhere, inject them with 'victory disease' and wait you turn to really show what a kicking feels like.

Roger


Very sound advice Roger!![:)]



vaspasian -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/25/2012 12:40:05 AM)

I'd like to say the date/time score doesn't quite tell the whole picture. With my brother admitting that a major victory was likely to happen in early '43. Yes, I'm crap and yes, I will get my coat, thank you and goodnight![sm=character0077.gif]



Lokasenna -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/25/2012 5:18:27 PM)

Perhaps, but if you could've held on until you had some Essex class, and the Hellcats at least...



Chickenboy -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/25/2012 5:22:42 PM)

Your brother did what he had to do to demoralize you and make you want to quit the game. Hats off to him for his effort. It's very hard to do this against an Allied opponent that is willing to take a few rough months, knowing that they will prevail in the end. In most circumstances, this (getting the Allies demoralized and making them quit) is the only way that the Japanese can 'win' the game.



Justus2 -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/25/2012 5:49:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Your brother did what he had to do to demoralize you and make you want to quit the game. Hats off to him for his effort. It's very hard to do this against an Allied opponent that is willing to take a few rough months, knowing that they will prevail in the end. In most circumstances, this (getting the Allies demoralized and making them quit) is the only way that the Japanese can 'win' the game.


Well, that's pretty realistic, the only hope the IJ had IRL was to get the American people demoralized and make them 'quit the game' - unfortunately PH gave the population a -95% modifier to their 'quit' chance...



Empire101 -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/25/2012 6:23:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Your brother did what he had to do to demoralize you and make you want to quit the game. Hats off to him for his effort. It's very hard to do this against an Allied opponent that is willing to take a few rough months, knowing that they will prevail in the end. In most circumstances, this (getting the Allies demoralized and making them quit) is the only way that the Japanese can 'win' the game.


A very sad end to a great game [:(]
I was suprised that my brother caved in, as the balloon ( as Roger so eloquently put it ), was ripe for bursting, and he had played so well against the onslaught.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.
I suppose I'll have to look for a new opponent soon.
Just the thought of that first turn......'the horror,the horror..'[:(][:(]


A rare victory for the Imperial Japanese Empire!!


[image]local://upfiles/29250/D903415903644E91838154714593E09B.jpg[/image]



BBfanboy -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/25/2012 8:21:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaspasian

Lokasenna,

I conceded. Partly ignorance, partly stupidity - partly having 300 days of being hit over the head with a wet fish plus my adversary is of imperial class.

Are you sure it was the head he was hitting with the fish?? [sm=00000030.gif]
Or was it more like ...[sm=fighting0056.gif] [:D]
Seriously, I agree with those who say you conceded too soon. You were only behind by 400 aircraft and you were almost at Jan. 43 when your torps go to 50% reliable [90% in July 43]. Your rookie pilots will mostly have perished and what you have left are reasonably good ones.
You are just getting some new CVLs in early 1943 and CVEs start arriving in December 42 or so. You may not be able to challenge his main fleet yet but you could push back here and there, with something bigger than flea bites.
And the biggest reason not to quit - you have learned a lot from the school of hard knocks, so you now know what risks you can take and which to avoid. Sounds like your brother already had that knowledge and used it against you when you weren't careful. You WILL do better next time!



vaspasian -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/26/2012 5:05:18 PM)

All,

Perhaps not a wet fish, BBFanboy, but a frozen one

Yes, I may have conceded too early but Ceylon had gone, China had pretty much gone and I had nothing to counter a full blown invasion of India which, I believe, would have triggered an automatic victory. And with half a million troops flooding out of China into the Pacific, I felt it was a position that was too depressng to comprehend.

BBFanboy - I think you are spot-on wth your analysis (as are all of your comments! - Including my Brother - Emperor101) - I have learnt a massive amount about the game and will definately listen to all your wse words - My complacency in the first two months of the game ment I was at a massive disadvantage against an elite, nay, imperious opponent!

Thanks guys!

A humble vaspasian with a small 'v'



vaspasian -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/26/2012 5:37:42 PM)

All,

I must admit that after reading all of your comments - feel much better about the prospects in Early '43. Maybe, I shouldn't have conceded...



LoBaron -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/27/2012 6:59:48 AM)

Good job Empire101! Which scenario was it you were playing?

But, vaspasian: Never give in!

This game provides the player with joy over success as well as frustration over failure. And it is long enough that you are bound to experience both situations a lot of times.
The best learning experiences often are when players beat down frustration over a defeat and move on to plan their future victories, remote as they may seem.





JocMeister -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/27/2012 3:03:42 PM)

vaspasian,

Playing the allies arnīt much fun early on! And almost everyone loses China these days. You have to try and find enjoyment in the little things. Sinking a TK, getting a 1:1 ratio vs the Tojo, sinking a sub. Small things!

Your fun time was just about to start. In April the Hellcat comes online, July 43 the allies really start cranking out Army fighters with about 200 per month. The Essex start arriving! Also in February you start to get more 4Es. I think you should try and resume your game. Lots of fun stuff starting to arrive in 43. And donīt play for victory points. Play for fun? [:)]



Lokasenna -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/27/2012 7:24:45 PM)

Trouble is that auto victory would occur at a 3:1 IJ over Allies VP ratio. Current ratio is 2.961:1... Add 453 VP to the current IJ total and it's auto victory on 1/1/43?



aztez -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/27/2012 7:39:22 PM)

I feel the pain. If the dice rolls are not in your favour than the first year can be real painful.

I have to admit have had sinking feelings quite often but you take it and move on...

Things become a brighter in mid 1943 onwards... not easy as many say but brighter.

As for china.. oh my it is awful.. but terrain, terrain and organize troops to take advantage of it.

I never completerly lost it (most likely could have happened vs erstad) but it is an mess.

I have updated nor written about but had one hell of series of battles in the south there when katsuragi launchend massive assault there.

Horrific losses but when dust settled japanese were out of steam also... and luckily have more fronts to think about now.

I would suggest you two start an rematch.. nothing sweeter than revenge I say.

Also forget about the points.. the game is not about it but an journey.

Good luck with the game... and don't feel too bad about it. Consider it as your test run.



Empire101 -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/27/2012 8:13:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Good job Empire101! Which scenario was it you were playing?

But, vaspasian: Never give in!

This game provides the player with joy over success as well as frustration over failure. And it is long enough that you are bound to experience both situations a lot of times.
The best learning experiences often are when players beat down frustration over a defeat and move on to plan their future victories, remote as they may seem.



It was Scenario 1....
And thanks for the compliment. The score does'nt reflect how tough it all was
[8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Trouble is that auto victory would occur at a 3:1 IJ over Allies VP ratio. Current ratio is 2.961:1... Add 453 VP to the current IJ total and it's auto victory on 1/1/43?


Chungking was just coming under attack, so I think the auto victory was a distinct ( but not 100% ) possibility.[sm=comp16.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aztez
I feel the pain. If the dice rolls are not in your favour than the first year can be real painful.

I have to admit have had sinking feelings quite often but you take it and move on...

Things become a brighter in mid 1943 onwards... not easy as many say but brighter.

As for china.. oh my it is awful.. but terrain, terrain and organize troops to take advantage of it.

I never completerly lost it (most likely could have happened vs erstad) but it is an mess.

I have updated nor written about but had one hell of series of battles in the south there when katsuragi launchend massive assault there.

Horrific losses but when dust settled japanese were out of steam also... and luckily have more fronts to think about now.

I would suggest you two start an rematch.. nothing sweeter than revenge I say.

Also forget about the points.. the game is not about it but an journey.

Good luck with the game... and don't feel too bad about it. Consider it as your test run.


Wise words indeed, thankyou Aztez.[:)]



vaspasian -> RE: Stopping the Juggernaut (8/28/2012 12:17:58 PM)

LoBaron, aztez, Jocmeister -

I understand the game much better now but do feel an Auto victory was on the cards, what with India at his mercy and China I got wrong from the start.

Lokasenna, Empire 101 - Exactly - not far to go and much too long to go before the '43 'joy'



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