Soviet Infantry Brigades + Corps Buildout Schedule (Full Version)

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hfarrish -> Soviet Infantry Brigades + Corps Buildout Schedule (8/24/2012 3:57:28 AM)

As with most of my questions, I preface this with the statement that I am sure guidance exists somewhere on the board...but given the difficulty of searching I ask the following:

What do Red Army players generally do with the horde of infantry brigades? My situation is as follows (its in the Pelton/hfarrish AAR): I have a massive Red Army during the blizzard (north of 6M)and thus really don't need infantry brigades in any meaningful sense to sustain the offensive - I have tons of strong divisions that are not even on the front but rather refitting.

What I am doing so far is simply using the brigades to preserve/build defensive lines in the rear as my divisions move forward; my thinking is that this will represent a good fall back line for the inevitable spring offensive. Is this viable? Not? Should I ditch the brigades by merging them into frontline units? Just curious what common Soviet practice is.



Seminole -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 4:21:25 AM)

In my experience inf bdes aren't much good for digging in and of themselves, but can keep the snow out of the trenches if you've already got fort lines you're moving forward from.

I like to use them (together with tank bdes) during blizzard to keep contact with the enemy for higher attrition, and because they lose a lot fewer men when bounced by a counter attack than a rifle division. This lets my rifle divisions get more replacements, supplies, and rest than if they had to maintain contact with the enemy each week during the blizzard.

I also use them exclusively with a pair of divisions to form corps.



bigbaba -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 4:46:37 AM)

i use them in refit modus (60%) in the rear to keep the fort levels up. this way they also can train and get a better moral&xp. in spring 42 i can merge them into relativly high moral divisions which can be used to:

1) replace more strong divisions at the front so the better divisions can rest in the rear area of become reserve troops.
2)keep them training to build rifle corps units with them.

or i just use the brigades in desperate situations to delay enemy advance.


depends on loses, how many good formations i have at the front and how much pressure the axis player generates.



hfarrish -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 5:00:30 AM)


My developing theory for 42 is that I will use brigades as a 1-2 line front with strong divisions forming the third line. I have a hard time seeing any panzer offensive breaking that wide open; I don't really see the advantage of eliminating counters unless you absolutely have to. In my current situation of course I am blessed with a massive army even in 41 - it would be different if I didn't have that to play with



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 6:10:06 AM)

I turn all of them into divisions in May of 42.

Don't merge them into existing units if you can possibly avoid it. This is a fairly desperate expedient that will ultimately result in a weaker Red Army. There's something like 75 rifle division equivalents here, and that's going to be your strategic reserve in 1942.

So far as the blizzard goes, I leave them in a depleted state and put none of them on refits until February. Shells will remain as shells. All replacements are focused on divisional units. When the blizzard winds down in February then you can start fleshing these out and probably will have to rush some of them forward to thicken the front lines and add depth to them.

They can also be used to prevent fort decay. They cannot be relied on to dig new forts in inclement weather without massive engineering support...not worth the bother.

So far as rifle corps go: use 3 divisions. There is no point in building a handful of weak rifle corps. You shouldn't build many of these in 1942, and the ones you do build should be made as strong as possible and overstrength. You shouldn't even have any brigades left by June.



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 6:12:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


My developing theory for 42 is that I will use brigades as a 1-2 line front with strong divisions forming the third line. I have a hard time seeing any panzer offensive breaking that wide open; I don't really see the advantage of eliminating counters unless you absolutely have to. In my current situation of course I am blessed with a massive army even in 41 - it would be different if I didn't have that to play with


That's just a chewy toy for the Germans I'm afraid.

Rifle brigades suck. They will not stop or even seriously slow down any real opposition. Their best use -- if you have to have them at all, and I get rid of all them ASAP -- is exactly the opposite of your proposed doctrine -- place them in the rear in reserve. They have a better chance to activate than divisions. But I say just replace them with divisions and be done with them. They're junk.



76mm -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 6:25:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
My developing theory for 42 is that I will use brigades as a 1-2 line front with strong divisions forming the third line. I have a hard time seeing any panzer offensive breaking that wide open;


I think you're in for a rude awakening if you're relying on something like that to stop the panzers, regardless of fort levels. By all means build such a line, but don't think it will stop the panzers or even slow them down that much, and keep strong reserves.



Seminole -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 6:55:29 AM)

quote:

So far as rifle corps go: use 3 divisions. There is no point in building a handful of weak rifle corps.


Ultimately the TOE is no different if you use 3 divs or 2 divs and 1 bde.
But I think your method (combining bdes to divs, then making corps from divs) creates a weaker army.

e.g. I have 372 divs and 114 bdes
If I combine the bdes to form divs I will have 429 divs, which can form 143 corps.
If I use the bdes to make corps I can ultimately form 162 corps from the same units. The AP cost for you to create the additional 19 rifle corps to 'catch up' is not insignificant.



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 7:37:06 AM)

The early TOE sucks, and using 3 rifle divisions allows you to exceed that.

Building rifle corps in 1942 is not AP efficient to begin with. If you have to build them, build them strong and make the expense count. You can get a double digit corps this way early on, not so much with a rifle brigade mixed in.

If I'm feeling cheap, I'm not going to dilute their strength with a brigade...I'll simply not build them at all. Rifle brigades mixed into rifle corps is a classic example of false economy imo. You either need them and hang the expense, or you don't.




Seminole -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 8:02:16 AM)

quote:

The early TOE sucks, and using 3 rifle divisions allows you to exceed that.
Building rifle corps in 1942 is not AP efficient to begin with.


I would only build Guards Rifle Corps in '42.
You can exceed the corps TOE with 2 divs and 1 bde as well, but that's not going to last long after contact with the enemy anyway. You don't get to keep the unit at 150% TOE forever just because you burned a division instead of a brigade to originally form the unit.

quote:

Rifle brigades mixed into rifle corps is a classic example of false economy imo. You either need them and hang the expense, or you don't.


To build the 19 rifle corps to 'catch up' in the example taken from my OOB it will cost you an extra 760 AP. That's 3 months worth...



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 8:14:55 AM)

Where are you getting this 760 AP figure?

Look. I build a half dozen or so rifle corps in 1942. It's a very limited and situational thing, mass builds don't work. By 1943 my rifle brigades are long gone. (They are indeed gone in May of 1942) I'm not going to hold on to them until 1943 in order to realize some spurious and theoretical AP savings. You need rifle divisions in 1942, and lots of them. They are the backbone of the Red Army at this point. You can get up 75 rifle divisions out of these rifle brigades or so. That's no joke and they are far more effective at digging, defending and attacking than a brigade.






76mm -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 10:57:01 AM)

While I understand that the 42 Rifle Corp TOE is kinda weak, I have a hard time understanding why people avoid building a fair number of them.

In 1942 the Sovs need something that can punch back against the panzers (from a reserve position), and rifle/cavalry corps, and a fair number of them at that, are the only things that can do that.

While there are many uses of APs in 42, there are a limited number of rifle or other divs that you can build for manpower/AP reasons, so why not build some rifle corps? Unless someone convinces me otherwise I plan to build a couple dozen.



Speedysteve -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 11:01:08 AM)

I also like to have at least 10 of the Blighters to use in the 'main sector'



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 12:34:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

While I understand that the 42 Rifle Corp TOE is kinda weak, I have a hard time understanding why people avoid building a fair number of them.

In 1942 the Sovs need something that can punch back against the panzers (from a reserve position), and rifle/cavalry corps, and a fair number of them at that, are the only things that can do that.

While there are many uses of APs in 42, there are a limited number of rifle or other divs that you can build for manpower/AP reasons, so why not build some rifle corps? Unless someone convinces me otherwise I plan to build a couple dozen.


They have a lot of problems in 1942.

They are too slow. They are too expensive. They are too weak. They cost a fortune to reassign. At 20 APs/corp, you're not getting value for your money. I can understand purchasing a limited number of them, say, to hold Moscow or some such thing. But the 150 Rifle Corps Red Army of your dreams has to wait until 1943.

I've seen what happens when people take the plunge with them too early: they get spanked. Rifle Corps just are not, by and large, a defensive tool of war. Indeed, building lots of them prematurely weakens your defense, because it will thin out your line too much and remove depth. And the lack of reassignment flexibility is bad for defense as well.

What I wonder is this: why do so many people buy so few tank corps? This is the real mystery. And when they do buy them, they misuse them. The Soviets need mobility badly. Defensive mobility is what's going to save you from the panzers, not rifle corps.

Rifle Corps on reserve mode have a poor chance of reacting, by the way. You are much much better off with their rifle division equivalents for this.



Speedysteve -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 1:14:18 PM)

Flav - agreed on Tk Cps. I try to get to my maximum war number of them in 42 if I can. I always keep them in reserve and behind the front lines to act as a fire fighting force.



76mm -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 2:46:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
They are too slow. They are too expensive. They are too weak. They cost a fortune to reassign. At 20 APs/corp, you're not getting value for your money. I can understand purchasing a limited number of them, say, to hold Moscow or some such thing. But the 150 Rifle Corps Red Army of your dreams has to wait until 1943.

Of course no one should build 150 in 1942, if nothing else you would denude your whole front of rifle divisions. But the flaws you mention are vs an ideal solution, whereas if you don't build rifle corps all you have are the pathetically weak rifle divs, which more likely than not will get chewed up by the panzers if you try to use them to stop a breakthrough. Like many of the choices for Sov players in this game, I would say that the only thing worse than building rifle corps in 1942 is...not building them. But I'm talking about a couple dozen, not 150!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I've seen what happens when people take the plunge with them too early: they get spanked. Rifle Corps just are not, by and large, a defensive tool of war. Indeed, building lots of them prematurely weakens your defense, because it will thin out your line too much and remove depth. And the lack of reassignment flexibility is bad for defense as well.

Agreed, they should be used solely in behind the front reserves or maybe to hold Moscow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
What I wonder is this: why do so many people buy so few tank corps? This is the real mystery. And when they do buy them, they misuse them. The Soviets need mobility badly. Defensive mobility is what's going to save you from the panzers, not rifle corps.

This is true, but tank corps alone are not enough in my view.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Rifle Corps on reserve mode have a poor chance of reacting, by the way. You are much much better off with their rifle division equivalents for this.

Sure, you don't keep them in reserve mode, but in reserve armies or fronts on key sectors of the front.

I don't understand your hate for the poor unappreciated rifle corps!



Seminole -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 2:48:50 PM)

quote:

Where are you getting this 760 AP figure?


With the OOB I mentioned earlier (what I should have by August of '42 in my current game) your method will provide me 19 fewer rifle corps (ultimately, not by August '42).
To 'recover' that missing 19 rifle corps (with your preferred 3 div build) you'd have to pay (3x10x19)+(10x19)=760.
You could choose to not pay it and have a 'weaker' army from the same OOB if you wanted.

quote:

They are too slow. They are too expensive. They are too weak. They cost a fortune to reassign.


I sit them behind my lines, and with 16MP they move well enough behind friendly lines to reach the point of battle and participate in a deliberate attack. I don't bother building regular corps in '42, but the guards corps (with an avg 50% better morale) hit much harder than tank corps (with the exp. hit they take) can in '42 when the Germans start rolling again.
I have typically assigned these guards rifle corps to Voronezh Front and use it as a strategic reserve. I don't re-assign the corps, too expensive. And that's really a separate discussion from making the best use of inf bde anyway.
The math is plain - your method builds a smaller Red Army. Some folks may be fine with that, we're simply presenting the options.



gingerbread -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 3:21:43 PM)

As it is now, Guard Corps (42 a & b kind) have a smaller TOE than the corresponding regular have. I don't understand where the 50% better morale comes from - it's NM 55 vs. NM 45 during '42 at least.

In any case, it is possible to stuff an Infantry Corps by breaking it down, have the component divisions grow to full strength and then recombine. They will take exp hits if the intake of men is large.

Infantry Brigades are best used as ½ division building blocks.



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 3:55:15 PM)

Seminole, my math is simple: it will build a 150 rifle corps Red Army. This is surely enough. I don't need to use brigades to achieve this. What I need is 450 rifle divisions. By flipping over the rifle brigades to divisions, I can achieve that target, and at the same I also get a useful unit in the interim (a rifle division) as opposed to silly ant (a rifle brigade.)

I do not hate rifle corps. I love them...in 1943 and after the 42c TOE, and paired with lots of artillery divisions, which cannot be built before October of 1942. 1942 is not their time and not their prime.




Seminole -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 4:01:06 PM)

quote:

As it is now, Guard Corps (42 a & b kind) have a smaller TOE than the corresponding regular have.


Guards Corps have roughly 20-25% smaller TOE (good or bad depending on your pool situation). I always leave them on refit and behind the line, so getting them to 'oversize' to 125% is common in my experience.

quote:

I don't understand where the 50% better morale comes from - it's NM 55 vs. NM 45 during '42 at least.


After the blizzard my units that have achieved Guards tend to be closer to 60 morale, and the average of those that have not closer to 40. When the blizzard winds down I put the Guards on digging duty in the rear (10+ hexes from the front line) to refit, train exp. and build morale (if possible).
The way that morale and exp. factor into combat power puts the Guards rifle corps at a distinct advantage, irrespective of official TOE, in my experience.

quote:

Infantry Brigades are best used as ½ division building blocks.


'Best' is entirely situational.
I'm merely giving the pros and cons of each approach. If you think it is always 'best' to have a smaller army, or pay hundreds more AP to have the same size army your definition of 'best' may differ from another player (particularly in another circumstance).



hfarrish -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 4:09:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


My developing theory for 42 is that I will use brigades as a 1-2 line front with strong divisions forming the third line. I have a hard time seeing any panzer offensive breaking that wide open; I don't really see the advantage of eliminating counters unless you absolutely have to. In my current situation of course I am blessed with a massive army even in 41 - it would be different if I didn't have that to play with


That's just a chewy toy for the Germans I'm afraid.

Rifle brigades suck. They will not stop or even seriously slow down any real opposition. Their best use -- if you have to have them at all, and I get rid of all them ASAP -- is exactly the opposite of your proposed doctrine -- place them in the rear in reserve. They have a better chance to activate than divisions. But I say just replace them with divisions and be done with them. They're junk.



Thanks - given that 95% of my games have ended by or during the blizzard, I probably need an intervention on some of my theories regarding '42 and beyond. Like the idea of simply merging all the Rifle Brigades into divisions. Less annoying counters to move around at a minimum. I'll use them to maintain the rear area forts until I can merge.



bigbaba -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 4:25:15 PM)

i go with flav here. you need rifle corps in 42 to hold extremly important areas OR to reopen pockets what is also important.

therefore make them as strong as possible to overcome their weakness in 42.



76mm -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 5:04:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
i go with flav here. you need rifle corps in 42 to hold extremly important areas OR to reopen pockets what is also important.


Well sure, I agree as well. But half a dozen rifle corps is hardly adequate for this.



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 5:17:08 PM)

A half dozen corps is enough to make Moscow a tough nut to crack. This is just about the only place on the map I feel compelled to use them for defensive purposes in 1942. (A good case can also be made for dropping them on Sevastopol and the Kerch Straights, but that only works so long as you hold Rostov. Once the Axis gets past that, you need to start looking at the Terek River and the mountains and will need divisions for this line, not corps.)

I'm not really sold on flipping over corps just to bust open a pocket. This strikes me as throwing good money after bad. (Rifle corps used in this fashion have a distressing tendency of winding up in pockets themselves after temporarily relieving them. They are like catnip for the German and a smart German player will contrive to herd them into a pocket as they can't fade back after being used for an attack most of the time. Not enough movement.)

And sometimes you just have to kiss a pocket goodbye, period and look to reestablish the defense in a more secure area further to the rear rather than sending more boys into a kessel.

I find that rifle divisions stiffened with cav and tank corps is enough to get the job done most of the time. Then your mobile units rush back to the rear at the end of your turn limiting their exposure to pocketing and making them available to bust pockets in turn.




gingerbread -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 5:20:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

As it is now, Guard Corps (42 a & b kind) have a smaller TOE than the corresponding regular have.


Guards Corps have roughly 20-25% smaller TOE (good or bad depending on your pool situation). I always leave them on refit and behind the line, so getting them to 'oversize' to 125% is common in my experience.

quote:

I don't understand where the 50% better morale comes from - it's NM 55 vs. NM 45 during '42 at least.


After the blizzard my units that have achieved Guards tend to be closer to 60 morale, and the average of those that have not closer to 40. When the blizzard winds down I put the Guards on digging duty in the rear (10+ hexes from the front line) to refit, train exp. and build morale (if possible).
The way that morale and exp. factor into combat power puts the Guards rifle corps at a distinct advantage, irrespective of official TOE, in my experience.

quote:

Infantry Brigades are best used as ½ division building blocks.


'Best' is entirely situational.
I'm merely giving the pros and cons of each approach. If you think it is always 'best' to have a smaller army, or pay hundreds more AP to have the same size army your definition of 'best' may differ from another player (particularly in another circumstance).


I think the Corps sizes are 5 brigades for regular and 4 for Guards.

I'd do the opposite: use the Guards and the divisions created by combining brigades to hold while the old regular divisions rotate back (not all at the same time) to get a morale of 50. They can train to 50 even if the NM is 45 and it's automatic up to 50 (10 hexes applies), while getting the 51+ morale Guards to increase will take a roll.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to have Guards but even at 60 they are not good enough to get special treatment. They might be the best there are for a particular job/assignment like holding some key hexes, but that's looking at it from the jobs side and not from the units. If fact I think it's a blessing that the Soviets do not have maximise the use of some elite panzer divisions equivalents - allows me to focus on the larger picture.

When it's time to build Corps, I don't mind using a brigade as one component, but I will not save them just to be able to. Not enough men to do that.





turtlefang -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 5:30:57 PM)

Regarding Infantry Bg: I usually assign 8 infantry divisions and 2 Inf Bg per Soviet army. I use the 2 bgs to relieve the divisions for short periods of time in the line to refit, sometimes add a little extra to the defense, and guard the HQ.

For unassigned BGs, petty much use them to maintain or improve forts, especially near cities. I will covert a few to divisions but prefer to wait unit 43 to covert 2 div+1 bg to corps.

42 corps - usually will covert all my gds divisions and one infantry bg to a corps. I transfer the divisions to a central army or front first, use this to act as a strategic reserve, build moral, and refit to gain strength. My first game taught me not to convert regular divisions to corps in 42 - big mistake on my part.

I did find out that I needed to create a LOT more tank corp in 42 that I did in my first game - and create some mot/mech bgs to convert to mech corp in 43. I now try and convert most of tank bgs to tank corps in 42 - this provides the mobility that the Soviets lack and a decent counter punch to the Germans if an opportunity comes up. The tank bgs that I don't convert I disband. This requires a balancing act between trucks, supplies, and admin points. But I have found its a better deal than making infantry corps in 42.



Seminole -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 5:57:22 PM)

quote:

I did find out that I needed to create a LOT more tank corp in 42 that I did in my first game - and create some mot/mech bgs to convert to mech corp in 43.


Flavius has expressed concerns about creating motor pool shortages by getting carried away creating tank/mech corps.
I just don't have sufficient late game experience to judge the sweet spot on this (and obviously it depends on the wear and tear you put on your motor pool with operations anyway).

How many trucks does a tank/mech corps cost compared to the existing 3 tank bde?



Flaviusx -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 6:34:32 PM)

There's enough trucks to build and maintain a couple of dozen tank corps in 42. The real crunch comes if you try to go beyond that and especially if you try to make mech corps. Mech corps are the real truck hogs, they need almost twice as many trucks as tank corps and they are frankly not twice as good. Those builds probably should be pushed to 1943.




hfarrish -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/24/2012 6:53:00 PM)


Since this has turned into a pretty great thread on both the subject of brigades and the rollout/buildout of corps, have retitled it to reflect the actual content.

Many thanks to everyone participating.



turtlefang -> RE: Sov Infantry Brigades (8/25/2012 1:00:46 AM)

I will take Flav word on it for how many trucks a mech corps takes versus a tank corps - I'm sure he's right and I just remember its a lot. I like to make six or so mech/mot bgs in Nov 42 or so that they have some time to gain experience and moral before 43 - then I can have a couple of decent mech corp when the truck situation improves in 43.

I've found I can build 24 to 30 tank corps in 42 and do ok BUT you have to watch the truck situation and adjust to that. If its going well, head to the top end, if poorly, then fewer. Trucks are the ban of my Soviet existence.

In January, 1943, I try to have 500 admin points. At that time, the cost to build infantry corps falls to 10 pts per corps and I want to build 50 of the things on first turn of January (ok, so its a hope and a plan). I usually try to have two divisions and a bg stack together in each spot of I want one built, adjust for new Gd divisions as I prefer Gd corps.

43 is the year to get artillery divisions - I used to target 15 or so but given the advice of this group have uped it to 30-40; and mech corps, plus whatever else I can squeeze in in regards to support units. 43 is a hard year on admin points even as trucks situation starts getting better.



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