Understanding Cargo/Your resources (Full Version)

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twinkypillow -> Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 4:03:17 AM)

Hi,

I am struggling to understand 2 things with Cargo/Resources..

1. How much cargo is truly needed for bases/ports/ etc..

right now I have a large base with 13000 cargo capacity.. enough??


2. What is the difference between the Colonies screen (F2) "Cargo"

and

the Expansion Planner (F3) "your stock column" ??


It would be great if the game had a way of telling you in the build menu if you had all the resources at your base to build whatever you are about to build.. I know you can manually click each individual component and see the cargo required.. I know you can even click the summary and look at all the numbers required.. but then you have to switch back and forth looking up every single individual number of each individual resources you have in the cargo of the (F2) colonies screen.. right?


3. what is the little flags in the colonies screen (F2) in the cargo tab?? that means your empire has that cargo? and why then is there other flags of different races for some of the cargo? Your frieghters go them to get that resource?? having trouble understanding this one as well..

Thanks!






boxleitnerb -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 5:59:00 AM)

2. I would assume that stock is everything you have in the cargo holds on ships, stations, colonies etc. Well, maybe just colonies and spaceports as cargo in transit from resource locations and on the mining stations themselves is not really ready for distribution and usage. Anyway, it means everything you have (ready). The cargo in the colonies screen is just for that particular colony, what is stored there.



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 9:24:59 AM)

Space ports (at colonies) don't need much storage. They share cargo area with the colony, and storage is unlimited.

For other bases, I suggest you go with the defaults. Start by modifying an AI design, and keep the amount of storage. Auto designs work. Sort of.



Nedrear -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 2:18:53 PM)

Bingeling is right. The colony itself takes down the resource (per lift?) to the surface and stores it there. The spaceport is simple hte gateway. You need storage in dark knot point. It can help your industry if you make them proper central crossroads storages through darkspace to refuel and distribute. That way they don't have to make much way.



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 2:31:47 PM)

Have you ever seen the AI use stops to store stuff?

I think a space port reserves some materials depending on size. Whether it is small/medium/large or some other measure like construction yards or docking bays deciding. Would a star base reserve materials? At least I think I have seen this, and it appeared to work to promote my "frontier large colony" to a large space port to have it collect strategical materials more quickly. I wanted it to build/retrofit ships for the fleets fighting in the area.

What I have always missed is signs of a "grand plan" of moving resources. Or rather, not so grand, a plan. When I track a rare resource, there seems to be some surplus some places, but mostly it seems that every colony books some 200 spice for itself (or whatever its reserve is). Spice planets by nature tends to start out at the edges of the empire, and it would be nice to see large, full (if available spice) freighters shifting cargo towards the center, and other freighters picking it up there.

Korabbia (koribbia?) has 8000 spice, 453 reserved. And almost no colony got any of it. How about lifting 8k of it in a large freighter to a large space port in general direction of the capital?



Gargoil -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 3:29:24 PM)

I'm no expert, but...

Starports use the (infinite) cargo space of the colony it is built on.
Reserve cargo is either for already scheduled construction, or if flagged for another race, then they are picking that cargo up as it was sold to them by the private sector.
Plants build components, construction yard put the components together to make ships.
The expansion planner demand column will give you an idea of what your using vs what you have.



feelotraveller -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 5:05:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Have you ever seen the AI use stops to store stuff?



Yep. Like twice in umpteen games. [:D]

Hm, I've heard that logistics idea of yours before (personally I like the idea lots) ... do you think the developers will ever bite? [:'(]



Tampa_Gamer -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 5:15:23 PM)

I mentioned this another thread, but it bears on this topic. I think one way the game could provide much needed feedback in this area is to:

GENERATE A LOW LEVEL MESSAGE IF CONSTRUCTION YARD IS STALLED FOR A PARTICULAR RESOURCE

Currently, there are no notifications of any stoppage. If you are lucky enough to realize something is stalled you then have to punch up the construction summary to see what resources the item needs, then you need to punch up the cargo amount of the construction yard to see if any amounts are 0/X reserved. Then you can scan out to see if any freighters are inbound with the material, then you can perhaps build an appropriate mine nearby if necessary. A lot of needlelss time could be avoided by simply generating a low level message to the player that the construction yard on XXXX is stalled due to a shortage of YYYYYY. If a player does not want to see those messages, it could be a toggle in the options screen along with the other message options.

Since the program already "knows" XXX and YYY (and hopefully called for freighter shipments) it should be fairly easily to generate the scrolling message along with all the others we get. Then at least we would have feedback.



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 5:22:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Have you ever seen the AI use stops to store stuff?



Yep. Like twice in umpteen games. [:D]

Hm, I've heard that logistics idea of yours before (personally I like the idea lots) ... do you think the developers will ever bite? [:'(]

I think I have written a longer version in a whishlist thread once, yes :)

I have no high expectations in that direction. I have noticed at least freighters with quite a lot in their cargo (in general), so something good has happened.



feelotraveller -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 6:35:11 PM)

Freighters are better. 

After my last game starting in the core of a spiral galaxy I would have said a lot.  After (the start of) my current game from the edge of an irregular galaxy I would say somewhat.

I think sparser galaxies and quicker expansion rates mess with the algorithm quite a lot. 

In my current game I have only 40 freighters active but 13 of them are going to collect Terallion Down.  5 from my own mine 2 sectors away, 7 from an independent 4 sectors away, and the most recently built freighter going 5 sectors to an alien empire.  As far as I can tell the only colony demanding Terallion Down is my homeworld.  This would not be too bad but I have 11 colonies, 9 trying to build spaceports and only one of them has ever received any supplies needed (a load of silicon).  A couple of them have been waiting for 2 years now.  I have over 16k of steel in stock, 20k demanded and no freighter carrying any.  Expecting a Galactic Financial Crisis any day now.  [sm=innocent0009.gif]



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 7:17:52 PM)

Maybe I should start to pay attention to them.

I have noticed scouting freighters around my rather fresh, spaceport building, colony myself, hoping for some construction material and seeing mostly some luxury. It seems to take quite some time to get around to transporting materials.

That being said. I never watch that date, and I have no clue how long time 2 years is in the game. I figure a freighter trip may take quite a lot of time if you consider 3 sectors and two docking procedures.



Pipewrench -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/13/2012 10:29:00 PM)

quote:

Expecting a Galactic Financial Crisis any day now.


seen that done that.
The private sector needs to make money and hauling steel around constantly is not good for the bottom line. Luxuries have that and are a priority with new colonies.

Bingeling,

Try sending a constructor down before you send the colony ship. Build a fuel source and 5-6 strategic resources mines as fast as possible and as close a possible to the new colony. If you plan it right you can speed the build up of the colony spaceport by half.



feelotraveller -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 12:23:04 AM)

I'm sure we've all seen and done that.  [:D]  (Actually I tend to see it every game, although in the galactic core it was actually controllable.  I don't mind since everyone else cops it too and I know its coming... poor buggers.)

In fact most of my spaceport construction material ends up being hauled by independent freighters.  Being on the edge of an irregular map means there are less of them around compared to a dense galactic core.

Pipewrench, that would probably work.  Given that my three constructors have been flat out (on the one preload) building all game and are only on to their 4th or 5th bases can I say that it is not very practical.  It would be working for my second colony, just a tad too slow I'm afraid - and it would mean no fuel just about everywhere.  (BTW the first colony got its spaceport built in record time since, as fortune would have it, I had a bunch of freighters idling away when my troops were singing their victory song.)

However the freighter algorithm is, well, not set up to move your construction material around.  A goodly proportion of my freighters are hauling unneeded resources back from conquered independents - oh great you've brought another 1000 osalia to add to my stock of 12000, and there are two more shipments of osalia on their way from that colony alone (and aculon and emeros as well in similar quantities) excuse me if I don't jump for joy.  [:'(]



Apheirox -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 12:43:18 AM)

#3: The flags mean who has reserved the resource in question. It lets you see who you are trading with, what you are trading and how much.



twinkypillow -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 1:05:28 AM)

Thanks for all the comments guys.



I do want to drive this back to the original point though and ask : What do the (Empire) flags on the far left of each resource in the Expansion Planner AND the colony Screen (Cargo tab) mean???

(Is this where the freighters have to pick up the resources? Please explain that clearly if you know. Thanks)


And What would be the optimal or suggested Cargo space for ports etc? I think my current custom base design has 12000 cargo space good? BAd? and 12000 means what? cause there is a lot more than 12000 of resources that needed to be held lets say at a far away deep space base right?


Also : If you can, please give me an example of how to When building a big ship/base that requires a lot of resources, what is the process of determining if you can build it right away? (example- 1. build a custom a design base.. 2. click construction summary, then sort by amount/size, 3. go to ?colony Cargo? (F2), then look for those resources that they are in the "ammount" or "Reserved" columns? (which one should i look at?) ))

Again thank you for all the comments so far. I can't stop playing this game.. no joke I have played it straight through sometimes for 5+ hours.. its too good.. (also I always start with High setting on Home colony when you start a game.. so my resources are a lot in the beginning of the game.. I want to get into understanding how to get my resources in control because I want to set that down to low soon!)

P.s. -Speaking of which; can someone answer the never answered question - What does the "control restricted resources priority" do?? (set to low? high? ?)
Is there any reason to ever uncheck "trade with others" and "tourism" type settings in the Empire Policy Screens?? Why would you ever want to uncheck those Trading options in the Empire Policy screen?



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 10:19:59 AM)

The empire policy screen is for guiding the AI. Restricted resources are probably the spice, fruit, and fluids of the world...

As said, for cargo space, follow the suggestions by the AI designs (look at an old one if in doubt). Space ports don't need storage while at a colony (and it is hard to build them anywhere else).

Reserved items are items booked by someone else. It can be freighters that will move them away, and the flag indicates which empire has reserved the item. I also think that build orders reserve the materials needed (so they will not be used for anything else).

If you want to build and item and know if there are enough materials on the station, you need to:

1: Get the resources listing from the design screen.
2: Verify that the resources needed are available (not reserved) on the station in question.



twinkypillow -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 11:57:03 AM)

Thanks for the answer.

Also I want to have a way to repair my fleets when they go far away from my homebase.. how to do that?? I have deployed a resupply ship on some gas etc.. but they cant' repair ships.. I agree its difficult to build a port anywhere else so what to do to repair them far away? (besides a constructor ship..)

thanks.



Pipewrench -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 1:10:35 PM)

Your learning about logistics that every empire has faced since the dawn of man.

That is what makes this game different. You have no control of the private sector who moves the material via normal trade routes.

The best answer is the closest colony with a spaceport and strategic resources within close, easy reach (mining stations/gas mining stations). The colony will have a normal draw for these strategic resources and a built up reserve.

If you need to use a star base create your own military quasi freighters by designing a ship class that has all the parts and fuel you think you might need for repairs. Build it and send it to your star base and then retire it to the base. Now you are paying much more then a freighter run but you can direct what is inside that base. Otherwise any repair, retrofit or refuel at that base will force a freighter on one of the existing trade routes to bring supplies. This can create massive bottlenecks if distance and many different materials are needed.



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 1:29:46 PM)

You seem to know a fair bit about manual resources, 'wrench.

Am I correct when I have a hunch that the AI overbuilds mines to a high degree? Ignoring fuel, my automated Constructors have about 17 sources for each of the core ship building ones. That is with some 50 colonies along a 12-3 o'clock sections of the ring in a ring galaxy.

I would think criteria for getting another mine for a resource is:

1: I want spare resources, not demand. Small demands on an otherwise well stocked resource probably won't matter and will resolve themselves.
2: Even if no demand, I want a spare. 2-3 sources never hurt no matter how little is actually used.
3: I want "common" resource sources scattered around my empire. Not every source in short travel around my capital. More areas have close supplies, and a war on a front won't suddenly wipe all my sources.

Typically, if I want a "district" away from the core worlds to be able to build a decent amount of ships, I probably want a medium+ space port in the area (I think they will hug more spare resources), and a source for each of the ship resources in that area. And of course, probably more than one source for the high demand ones.

Also it seems a good idea to try keep resources near each other. That makes them easier to defend. The good thing about the AI overbuilding them and spreading them around a bit is that it keeps pirates away, since they need an empty system with a fuel source...

I also have a hunch that you don't actually need many construction ships at all. At least if you don't have debris fields (I hate those, so never enable the original storyline). In my current (stale) game, It think I had a single AI run constructor until 20+ colonies.

Also. When there is a mix of stores and demand. Is there a simple way to figure out where the demand is? Scanning the cargo of all colonies and bases is not simple...



Pipewrench -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 3:10:07 PM)

Bingeling,

I profess to know nothing in fact but base most of my observations dealing with 3 different race types with very hard settings put in place. I hope the disclaimer is adequate.[8D]

That sounds like a good strategy to me. The AI does a good job in building mines and trying to keep the budget a profitable as possible if left on. It has no real idea of your actual strategy so it will build a mixture that can suit most needs. If you have all your needs met it will repair derelict ships and build resorts/research stations. Your needs will increase over time with colony growth bringing on more demand. This will force a call for more mines and more freighter routes if need be.

A small story,

I had an early game once where there was no silicon to be had except in another empires influence. Three sectors away I finally found a source that was free to mine. Up till then I was forced into a trading relationship where I had to pay the other empire for shipments. I grabbed a close constructor and immediately told it to stop what it was doing and set up a mine for my freighters. I then put it back on automatic so that when finished it could resume what the empire wanted to build. I then found the closest colony to that mine and insured that at least one strategic resource for each type had a mine built as close as possible to that colony unless it had a very poor extraction percentage. When all the other colonies had finally received the silicon they needed the trade with the other empire stopped because demand was met. Now any new military builds were manually made at the spaceport which had the silicon nearby.

I then prepared for war and as you might guess....It was over silicon.[;)]





Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/14/2012 5:45:33 PM)

My problem in the game is that I am not aggressive enough. I like to be attacked :) The other problem is that I tend to do quite well in a war. Which means that they attack only once. One problem with legends is the border system, which makes the AI less annoying (planting a colony in the mining system next to my capital was a good way to put me in war mode). I guess I will try be the scourge of the galaxy and happily pay attention to my war cabinet (AI). Boskara in a galaxy with no other insects...

I think I will try run the constructors on manual to get a better feel for resources. The AI does a good job, and that makes it easy to not pay much attention. You notice the problem only when it is glaringly obvious that the ship you are waiting on never finishes, or you notice a 30 ship construction queue when you want to build 2 more troop transports...

Starting with 1 colony and basic tech level is the point where I have done manual constructors as a survival mode. This because in that phase, pirates are a real annoyance. Ships have poor weapons, and long jump time, and mines tend to die before anyone can get there. This makes it beneficial to pick the mining systems carefully. A 40% steel source along side 2 other mines can be better than a 80% source half a sector away.

That being said, the pirate struggles on a 1 colony start with basic tech is so mighty fun that I am pretty sure I will start on "young" from now on.



Deomrve -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 2:21:11 AM)

This seems like a good place to ask this question. Let's say you build a defensive base over a colony and it has the capability to build ships. Does a base, not port, share cargo with the colony?



twinkypillow -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 7:58:50 AM)

Unfortunately because of this games "amazing manual" I am just going to guess that yes it does.. but then again the only way to know for sure is to start the "Game Editor" and make 2 custom star bases.. one with cargo.. one without cargo..

I guess test the base without cargo holds first and see whats in the cargo and see what you can do with it.. thats my best guess right now because the "amazing manual" of this game.. haha.




Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 9:59:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deomrve

This seems like a good place to ask this question. Let's say you build a defensive base over a colony and it has the capability to build ships. Does a base, not port, share cargo with the colony?

Why would you build a defensive base with the ability to build ships? [&:]

I would be very surprised if it stores at the colony. The easy test is to look at the defensive base, space port, and colony, and see if they got the same cargo.



Pipewrench -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 2:40:46 PM)

anything that can be built on a colony can share in the colony's resources.

pumkinfacer22,

What most new players have to understand is that building anything in this game relies on the private sector who has a limited infrastructure.

With this in mind

if you modify mining bases into armed uber bases you will need more freighter runs to cover the increased supply that the colony gave to the constructors.
if you create larger designs for ships and military bases it again will require more freighter runs to build up the lost resources.
if you colonize too far out fuel and time will become factors when building anything.

Build bases one at a time so that freighters can concentrate on moving luxuries and building that base. Cut back on all other construction if possible so the private sector can catch up and manually direct constructors to build specific strategic resources close to new developments for the next build.

concentrate research in extraction , speed , cargo capacity and docking to speed things up.

There is nothing wrong with modifying anything, just keep in mind without increasing the response of your private sector can create backlogs.



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 2:43:50 PM)

Hm. So when a ship refuels at a defensive base, it is mostly a matter of finding a docking port to the colony resources?



Deomrve -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 4:15:58 PM)

Thanks for the answers, I'll have to test it out unless some other energetic individual beats me to it. My theory was that bases and ports were given different roles. Space ports are designed to be the commerce centers for colonies and would share with the colony. Starbases were for other purposes and self contained like ships and because bases could be built anywhere and that's why I figured bases don't share with colonies. I know that if you build a Starbase over a gas giant with gas extractors and try to make it become a major refueling station for my ships in fringe areas the construction ships don't recognize this as a gas mining station and want to build a gas mining station on the same planet. The ships seem to recognize it a a place to refuel, but will go to the gas station first then to the starbase. At least that's been my observation. So I create 2 gas station designs one large and one normal size.



Pipewrench -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 4:57:47 PM)

yes but the defensive base is without a commerce center.

There is no tax man now at that base and you can miss revenues if you build this design.

If you build it with a commerce center and a gas extractor you will have now ....drumroll....a uber gas mining station, but the cargo storage capacity will only be able to fill up small and medium stock freighter designs to full capacity. Add storage to feed more freighters.

Create two designs if you want. One for gas and one for mines and then manually build them in important areas if necessary. This way the private sector is not saddled with the maintenance cost and constructors will not auto build the new design and go broke.



Bingeling -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 5:11:46 PM)

I have not tested a lot, but I figure that the labels are not critical to functionality, but to what I think they are. Space ports could be special, though.

In my head:

A space port is the trading hub and construction yard above a planet. And where civilians goes to have "fun in space", because the coolest restaurant is at the very edge...

A defensive base is a gun platform around a space port. It is only there for protection.

A star base is for special needs. I use them as military supply points with a construction yard and extra defenses, a long range scanner, more docks, larger storage, lots of gas extractors for fuel. And more defenses than a gas mine. If I want some over the top gas mines, I prefer them to be state owned and pay for them myself. But they also have a commercial center to enable the civilians to pick up resources if they want to. I could build them if an area is really short on fuel sources, but typically I end up build them in gas clouds where pirates pop, and I get tired of having the pirate busters travel a long way back and forth for the kill.



Pipewrench -> RE: Understanding Cargo/Your resources (9/15/2012 5:20:25 PM)

yes , it is a matter of semantics.
*edit labels are important with regards to autobuilding


Just like escort , frigate and destroyer. The AI can auto build due to role involved and if you add more functionality the AI still regards the old role as primary because you cannot remove the original default components.
*edit
to add: certain designs have limitations imposed so you can run into restrictions when you modify.



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