Weapons repair confusion (Full Version)

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Chris21wen -> Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 10:18:01 AM)

Just come across something I've never previously had a problem with, as the Allies. I'm now playing Japan and the Yamashiro has damag 36cm/45 41YT guns so I moved her to Hong Kong a level 8 port 50 repair yard but the game is telling me it will not repair the guns.

OK so I checked the manual and this is were I'm confused, repair costs for guns is the 'Effect value of the gun' in this case 1485. Repair points are generated in repair yards at size x 20. For Hong Kong 50x20=1000 which is not enogh. Likewise Port weapin repair is port size x 25 so for HK 8 x 25 = 400 again not enough. OK so I'll move her to a size a repair yard min 80. More than enough.

This is the problem. How do you repair 18.1in/45 T94 or similar with 3219 effectiveness there arn't any repair yards big enough in Japan, Biggest being 100. Claification need because I think I'm missing something here.



pmelheck1 -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 10:36:27 AM)

If I remember right you add port support squads to the size for repair of weapons.



Puhis -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 11:00:24 AM)

You can also expand repair yard. I think it's a good idea to expand at least one repair yard in Japan anyway.



castor troy -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 11:17:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Just come across something I've never previously had a problem with, as the Allies. I'm now playing Japan and the Yamashiro has damag 36cm/45 41YT guns so I moved her to Hong Kong a level 8 port 50 repair yard but the game is telling me it will not repair the guns.

OK so I checked the manual and this is were I'm confused, repair costs for guns is the 'Effect value of the gun' in this case 1485. Repair points are generated in repair yards at size x 20. For Hong Kong 50x20=1000 which is not enogh. Likewise Port weapin repair is port size x 25 so for HK 8 x 25 = 400 again not enough. OK so I'll move her to a size a repair yard min 80. More than enough.

This is the problem. How do you repair 18.1in/45 T94 or similar with 3219 effectiveness there arn't any repair yards big enough in Japan, Biggest being 100. Claification need because I think I'm missing something here.




have never seen a ship not repairing something when it fits into a ship repair yard. [&:] No matter what BB, they were always able to repair any damage when they were fitting into the yard.



Sardaukar -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 12:35:48 PM)

I think there is something about weapon size (or could be a bug). You may have to send her to mainland Japan..which is actually historically correct.



Chris21wen -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 2:50:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

You can also expand repair yard. I think it's a good idea to expand at least one repair yard in Japan anyway.


Yes I agree, what I should have added is if the ship can be built why can't it be repaired.



Chris21wen -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 2:56:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Just come across something I've never previously had a problem with, as the Allies. I'm now playing Japan and the Yamashiro has damag 36cm/45 41YT guns so I moved her to Hong Kong a level 8 port 50 repair yard but the game is telling me it will not repair the guns.

OK so I checked the manual and this is were I'm confused, repair costs for guns is the 'Effect value of the gun' in this case 1485. Repair points are generated in repair yards at size x 20. For Hong Kong 50x20=1000 which is not enogh. Likewise Port weapin repair is port size x 25 so for HK 8 x 25 = 400 again not enough. OK so I'll move her to a size a repair yard min 80. More than enough.

This is the problem. How do you repair 18.1in/45 T94 or similar with 3219 effectiveness there arn't any repair yards big enough in Japan, Biggest being 100. Claification need because I think I'm missing something here.




have never seen a ship not repairing something when it fits into a ship repair yard. [&:] No matter what BB, they were always able to repair any damage when they were fitting into the yard.


I would have thought that too. She fits and no others in the repair yard I'm going to leave her and see what happens.

What about the real question I.e. the 18 inchers anybody.



dr.hal -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 3:15:45 PM)

The below is extracted from Alfred's fine Ship Repair 101 URL; http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2990845):

8. Weapon Repair Point Sources

WRP are generated by only three sources:

• Shipyards
• Tenders
• Ports

These WRP are generated at a different rate than IRP are generated. Hence it is possible for a ship to have all of its IR damage repaired but still have its weapons unrepaired because the IR were effected at a location which lacked suitable facilities for WR.

It is very important to realise that WRP do not accumulate over turns. There is no WRP stockpile. A weapon will not be repaired if the ship has been sent to a WRP source which each turn generates fewer WRP than the amount needed to repair the weapon.


Table B: WRP generated by shipyards, ports and tenders for weapon repairs

(Shipyard size x 20) [NB: there is a maximum cap of 300 on shipyard size]
(Tenders generate a fixed 250 WRP)
(Port size x 25)

Exemplar B: As seen in table A, the WRP cost to repair a single 16in/50 Mk 7 gun is 2700. Only a shipyard sized 135 will generate sufficient WRP in a turn to repair a single 16in/50 Mk 7 gun. If the damaged weapon were instead a torpedo which requires only 120 WRP, the repair could be effected at a shipyard sized 6 or alternatively by an appropriate tender for the type of vessel or alternatively at a port sized 5.

Note the WRP listed in table B are from undamaged facilities. A shipyard sized 10 which generates 200 WRP if undamaged, will only generate 100 WRP if the shipyard is 50% damaged. A port sized 4 which is 75% damaged will generate only 25 WRP instead of the 100 WRP it would generate if not damaged.

Thus the largest shipyard can be 300 and fix 6000 weapons points of damage. If the 18.1 has 3219 as it's effect, then any shipyard size 161 or higher will do the trick. I don't have the game in front of me so I don't know the size of yards. I am assuming that port WRPs and Tender WRPs can be counted thus diminishing the shipyard size needed accordingly.



Chris21wen -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 5:14:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

The below is extracted from Alfred's fine Ship Repair 101 URL; http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2990845):




More or less how I read it. This leads to a very important point, how can you build a ship and not fully repair it. E.g. The weapons ????????

I know you can increase the size of your repair yards but you don't build a ship in repair yards. If you can build ships with these massive guns, the Yamoto for instance, then why can't you repair them without resorting to a massive increase in at least one repair yard. Seems like some hole here in the game mechanics.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 5:42:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

The below is extracted from Alfred's fine Ship Repair 101 URL; http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2990845):




More or less how I read it. This leads to a very important point, how can you build a ship and not fully repair it. E.g. The weapons ????????

I know you can increase the size of your repair yards but you don't build a ship in repair yards. If you can build ships with these massive guns, the Yamoto for instance, then why can't you repair them without resorting to a massive increase in at least one repair yard. Seems like some hole here in the game mechanics.


Aren't the building yards full of ships, being, ya know, built? Do they have emtpy drydocks? Even if you halt the construction do you tow the unfinished hulls out into the channel to make room? Replacing a Yamato turret isn't a job for pierside, even if an appropriate crane were available.



Puhis -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 5:50:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

The below is extracted from Alfred's fine Ship Repair 101 URL; http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2990845):




More or less how I read it. This leads to a very important point, how can you build a ship and not fully repair it. E.g. The weapons ????????

I know you can increase the size of your repair yards but you don't build a ship in repair yards. If you can build ships with these massive guns, the Yamoto for instance, then why can't you repair them without resorting to a massive increase in at least one repair yard. Seems like some hole here in the game mechanics.


So it seems to be like Chitose/Chiyoda conversion, you can't do it without expanding Tokyo's repair yard.

But if you actually manage to get Yamato's main guns damaged, the ship is probably so badly damaged anyway that game lenght is not enough to repair her... So it doesn't matter... [;)]



dr.hal -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 5:58:38 PM)

What is the largest shipyard available to the Japanese??? I don't play them in the big game, at least not yet.... so I don't know off hand..



Puhis -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 6:01:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

What is the largest shipyard available to the Japanese??? I don't play them in the big game, at least not yet.... so I don't know off hand..


Largest repair yard is 100 (at least scenario 1)



dr.hal -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 6:53:34 PM)

Well that's no fun.... a long way away from the 161 needed!



btbw -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 7:18:06 PM)

Repair Yard 136 how i can calculate, a month of growing.
P.S. Port level 10 with AR parked here.



zuluhour -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 7:38:25 PM)


edited: already posted above



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 8:37:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Well that's no fun.... a long way away from the 161 needed!


Everyone knew the mighty Yamato would never need repairs. The Emperor would never allow it to he harmed. Right? Right?



Banzan -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 8:45:54 PM)

I may be wrong, but isn't at least one "Yard" set to be able to repair anything (Tokyo)? I remember that question comming up a long time ago, and i thought someone said that japan has one Repair-Yard that is able to repair any damage.



dr.hal -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/21/2012 9:24:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Banzan

I may be wrong, but isn't at least one "Yard" set to be able to repair anything (Tokyo)? I remember that question comming up a long time ago, and i thought someone said that japan has one Repair-Yard that is able to repair any damage.

I for one have never read that anywhere. No matter what the capability is, there still needs to be numbers to address how much repair can be done over what period of time and to what systems. So something has to be delineated.



jmalter -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/22/2012 5:19:09 AM)

what i recall was a post that some conversions could only take place at Tokyo.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/22/2012 5:52:08 AM)

Can any weapon on the game even penetrate the turret armor on the Yamato?


EDIT: I just looked and it looks like 14 in guns can are very very close in ranges and 16 in guns can at somewhat close in ranges.

But US ships would have to get extremely close in to crack that armor.



Chris21wen -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/22/2012 8:22:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Repair Yard 136 how i can calculate, a month of growing.
P.S. Port level 10 with AR parked here.



So weapon repair is a combined total of repair yard + port + AR. So the largest weapon that can initialy be repaird is 100x20+9x25+250 = 2475 at Hiroshima. I'm assuming that the AR wil be able to work on guns of that size. Anything initially in play can be repaired even without the AR.



Dili -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/22/2012 10:36:10 AM)

quote:

If you can build ships with these massive guns, the Yamoto for instance, then why can't you repair them without resorting to a massive increase in at least one repair yard. Seems like some hole here in the game mechanics.


Yeah doesn't make sense. There should be at least a shipyard able to do that. It must be said that the guns were build at Kure Naval arsenal then transported by Kashino and then mounted at shipyards but it is impossible to simulate that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_munition_ship_Kashino

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Kash_t.htm

Edit: actually it seems Kashino only transported the Musashi turret not Yamato. Yamato was build at Kure so it could get the turrets directly. So Hiroshima/Kure should be able to repair Yamato class turret/weapons from start.



dr.hal -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/22/2012 2:12:32 PM)

How many gun tubes at 18.1 inch did they build beyond the ones needed for the ships (replacement tubes)? I recall reading somewhere in one Leyte Gulf (Willmott's?)book that these guns didn't have a long life in terms of shots and thus they were used sparingly (and I'm not talking about the "AA" shells that they carried which where instructive to the tube).



msieving1 -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/22/2012 2:28:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

How many gun tubes at 18.1 inch did they build beyond the ones needed for the ships (replacement tubes)? I recall reading somewhere in one Leyte Gulf (Willmott's?)book that these guns didn't have a long life in terms of shots and thus they were used sparingly (and I'm not talking about the "AA" shells that they carried which where instructive to the tube).


According to navweaps.com: "A total of 27 guns were produced, with the first one being completed in March 1938 and tested at the Kamegakubi proving grounds. Eighteen of these guns were lost with Yamato and Musashi, two test guns at Kamegakubi were demolished in November 1945 in accordance with the general disarmament orders of the U.S. Army and the remaining seven were found in various stages of completion on the beach in a cove north of Kamegakubi. Five of these remaining guns were destroyed while the last two were taken to Dahlgren Proving Grounds in Virginia, USA, for testing. These were reportedly cut up for scrap sometime during the 1950s. Two partially completed turntables intended for Shinano were also captured and later destroyed."

Navweaps.com gives the approximate barrel life of the 18.1" gun as 150-250 rounds. The gun construction was so complex that relining the guns was considered to be impractical, and it was cheaper to completely replace the gun instead.



dr.hal -> RE: Weapons repair confusion (9/22/2012 2:37:41 PM)

Yes msieving1, that's what I recall, a low tube life. Thanks for the information. Hal



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