WWII Campaign?? Not in my history books???? (Full Version)

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Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> WWII Campaign?? Not in my history books???? (1/26/2001 1:03:00 AM)

ERRRRRRRRR I am not impressed. I mean reeeeally not impressed. How can this game be so good and so bad simultaneously. Its fun to play right up till you realise the game hasnt any idea of what happened during WWII. I played the WWII campaign as Germany. 1939, Poland, and it looks like the Poles invented armoured warfare damnit! Wiped out more Polish armour then they even had built let alone deployed in one place. Move to France I get attacked by wave after wave of a single type of armour (might not be so bad if there was variety). In a fashion that was not even remotely similar to the inept manner the French used theirs in 1940 (I dont want a dumb AI but historical accuracy might not hurt) I get to watch as my line of carefully deployed, fully dug in armour is picked off by rapidly moving lame excuse French armour. I get less than a 20% return rate on shots from 88's which is ludicrous. 4 turns into the current battle and I am not even remotely interested in playing this any further. Lost 1/3 of my armour against maybe 4 out of 80 attacking Sumoas, nah I dont think so. Am I missing something? This campaign hasnt been a fluke. The game aaaalways deploys idiotically large volumes of armour that just never occurred in the real thing. In a totally unrelated thread. Why?, just why does the games software allow units to seemingly pile up on top of each other. I can see maybe two vehicles coming into close proximity but when you see the computer cram 6-10 vehicles in the same spot like a deck of cards, the visual appeal of the games dies big time. This isnt unique to Steel Panthers though. But I would like it if Steel Panthers deserved all the praise it got. Is the software just not up to spatial realism? I would really like to hear a loud bang if three or more vehicles try to occupy the same spot. In real life you sure can bet that you would hear that loud bang. ------------------ Winning all the time is as boring as losing all the time




Hauptmann6 -> (1/26/2001 1:16:00 AM)

Well, you are not going to get realism by the AI in just about any game. And for teh stacking, each hex is 50 meters across, you can fit quite a few vehicles in a space like that withought a problem... Relax and try the campains that came with the game, Utah to the Rhine is very good... Haupt




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (1/26/2001 1:21:00 AM)

hmmm how odd replying to my own post but just read a lengthy post that essentially deals with this a bit. I might have commented there, but the length of the thread had me wondering if anyone would scroll down that far. So my further comment here is this Why should I have to tweak this control and adjust that setting. Cant the game be configured to play correctly in the first place. I mean do we all have to play a wretched game several times before its obvious it was in need of fixing in the first place. Most games out there come with difficlty settings. Standard means standard, easy means you have an edge, and hard means the computer is going the thrash you if you dont watch what you are doing. ------------------ Winning all the time is as boring as losing all the time




AmmoSgt -> (1/26/2001 1:28:00 AM)

Les trust me on this point ..the minute a bunch of gamers are willing to buy computers that can handle the detailed modeling of WW2 on a 1 tank is 1 tank 1 squad is 1 squad basis somebody will write the program i figure an army surplus Cray 1 with two servers and a DVD should be able to handle that just fine ...in fact i think i saw one of those online just the other day .... minimum bid was less than $500,000 .. get two so we can both play




orc4hire -> (1/26/2001 1:39:00 AM)

Les, I understand your frustration; I've been there. But the thing to remember in the generated campaigns is that they're random; they're not supposed to be representative of any particular battle. If you want realistic situations, you have to go to the scenarios and the hand crafted campaigns. Now, it would be nice if the AI had a database of higher echelon units to pick its force from (battalion level, say), which would make things a little more balanced and realistic, but the Matrix team was limited to the structure of the original SP game, and only has so many database slots and such to work with. As for the preferences, unfortunately if you ask 3 gamers how something should work, you'll get 5 different opinions. The best the designers can do is try and make the most people they can happy with the default settings, and give the others the option of tweakings to their taste. It's not perfect, but it's not a perfect world....




Drake -> (1/26/2001 1:43:00 AM)

Agree with you their AmmoSgt [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] As it is I wound not wount them to go historic in the long campaign anyway. With the AI being so bad its just to easy to bet the computer in the long compaign even when it has 10 to 1 odds on you. In the last long campaign game I played I had like 1000+ armour kills with only like 10 of my own armour units lost. I stick mostly to the user made compaigns new becouse they at list prove to be somewhat of a chanllage.




Gurney Halleck -> (1/26/2001 2:01:00 AM)

In my opinion a free game is a great game [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]




rfox -> (1/26/2001 4:01:00 AM)

Les: I've been playing a German campaign starting in '39 against the Poles. I've only done two missions, but already I've almost depleted what would have been the entire 7-tp. tank reserve for Poland when the war started in '39. We're only in October. Is this historical? No way. However, I sort of like the idea that the campaign I'm playing is "my" campaign and in a sense, I'm re-writing history with my little Panzer battalion. There are historical elements in the long campaign that help to keep it within a historical framework. The equipment you encounter is historical. The squad/platoon sizes the computer chooses are historical (although I've heard that some significant OOB changes are coming in version 4.6). The terrain is "historical" and the weather is "historical". No, the AI is not the sharpest knife in the drawer but what game do you know of that has a superb unbeatable AI? The great thing about SP:WAW is that you can modify almost every piece of data the computer uses. In your individual campaign, if you think the Poles or the French had relatively weak forces (which obviously they did), then reduce the number of points the AI has to work with. When you reach Russia, give the AI more points to work with. I would like to make one suggestion to the developers, though. I'm not sure if this has come up or not. Would it be possible to add within the OOB for any given nation a percentage for each type of equipment that refers to the relative rarity vs. ubiquity of that piece of equipment? For example, in '39 Pz. IIs and Pz. IIIs would have a high potential for being a part of any given battle group for the Germans while the 7-tp. with the dual 8mm guns would be relatively rare for the Polish. So, when the AI chooses it's TO&E for any given long campaign scenario, it checks the table for the availability percentage in that time period and picks accordingly. It might be nice to have a toggle which could voluntarily limit the human player as well. So, for instance, if the human player is adding a high percentage of a relatively rare piece of equipment to his TO&E, he would be limited. Also, give the AI the tendency to choose the best equipment available to it so that it's TO&E is not a homogenous grouping of the worst equipment it has available. Perhaps equipment could be rated on a scale from 1-100 for the time period it is in. I'm not a programmer, so I'm not sure how hard that would be to implement but it would seem to go a long way in making the random scenarios for the long campaign a little more historical, equipment-wise. I hope that made sense. ------------------ ------------- Rob




Larry Holt -> (1/26/2001 4:16:00 AM)

Les, Hang in there it gets better. The way the AIP buys its armor is unrealistic for the Polish and French battles but once you go on to the eastern front or north africa, it gets realistic. If you want to start your long campaign after the fall of France. Or you can save the battle before you start playing it, open it in Fred's editor (link on Matrix's link page) and edit the AIP's units down somewhat. Alternately, change the values in preferences to make the AIPs tanks pop like ballons. Finally you can buy mines and let the AIP impale itself on them. While the game is not perfect, it is THE MOST player friendly one around with all the tweaking one can do to make it be as you like. While you have a valid point in asking why do you have to tweak it? Its because different players have different desires. What would be prefect to you would cause someone else to complain. Take it, learn it, tweak it, enjoy it. Welcome to the SPWAW community! ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.




Alexandra -> (1/26/2001 9:25:00 AM)

On a side note, we shouldn't beat up on the AIP all that much. After all, a lot of *humans* don't go out of thier way to buy realistic forces, either, and, unlike the AIP they don't have the excuse of 'Well, that's how I'm programmed [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]'




orc4hire -> (1/26/2001 9:41:00 AM)

A lot of human commanders haven't done much better than the AI on the battlefield either, come to that....




Jeff Norton -> (1/26/2001 9:43:00 AM)

Amen... Europe is full of reminders that will atest to that fact... -Jeff 1 more to go...




Belaja smert -> (1/26/2001 3:42:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alexandra: On a side note, we shouldn't beat up on the AIP all that much. After all, a lot of *humans* don't go out of thier way to buy realistic forces, either, and, unlike the AIP they don't have the excuse of 'Well, that's how I'm programmed [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]'
Well said [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] ------------------ Belaja smert




MindSpy -> (2/1/2001 4:14:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1: [B]ERRRRRRRRR QUOTE [img]http://208.185.88.171/ubb/frown.gif[/img]edited) I mean reeeeally not impressed. How can this game be so good and so bad simultaneously.Its fun to play right up till you realise the game hasnt any idea of what happened during WWII.Am I missing something? This campaign hasnt been a fluke. ------------------ MindSpy: Hey, hello there. WAW is the superior version of all the SP games without a doubt. The game continues to improve and that can`t convey the whole thing at all but ... I read your post and felt that you should get some good responses on the nature of the beast. I will try to go point by point from your posting. Actually no game should be able to duplicate the Second World War. Particularly a game that was altered/skewed towards playability contrary to the designer`s wishes as SP1 was. SP is not a statistical board game where you can easily control game mechanics to reflect similar and significantly varying battles fought on the same patch! In fact finding historians to agree on WW2 history is an art in itself forget a FUN game. Even today, we still have many military specialists who have not understood the main lessons of WW2 operationally. Not that that was the only way to fight, just that there were many methods that required proper application or else ... Essentially, though I understand your point about realsim. If ya wants realsim then enlist otherwise you are playing a game. At no point is your life in jeopardy while playing WAW nor are your war strained emotions determining your wanting to see another sunset heck meal even!!! let alone whether or not you will allow your commander to do so as well. However, the game is replete both on the web and in the game files pointing out the limitations of the AI. Enough said everywhere, it is a starting place. Baisically, the best of the game is found in specific campaigns/scenarios/pbem and the Campaign generator with restrictions if you are sufficiently experienced. As well, if you select the campaign mode make certain that you can select the start and end date of the campaign. Baisically, the other generator is the dinosaur component given back to the players by request! Campaign! is severely limited! because you do not adjust the preferences to make the game tougher for yourself (experienced players-novice=different requirements:::and then there is mood-I want to knock out tanks like in the early Barbarossa years!) does not automatically mean that you have grasped the nuances of the game! and it`s reach. i.e. give yourself fewer points, and choose fewer armour units, play against a Flag that has superior armour! even. Don`t refit your unit every turn, only when you have won xx times or retreated from battle! Lastly. Warning, if you load up on armour guess what the comp.`s AI will do as well!!! I don`t recall games nor movies being required to be realistic. I believe you have confused realism with entertainment. If you do not know that the game beyond the limited exposure you have given yourself to it then you can be excused for feeling that it is a bad rub and that the Gin(genie) well she is a no good. But really. Out of all the game CD`s I have only SP series games allows me to create varied battles that I will enjoy. Resulting in my playing the game well after it ceased to be produced. Yet these updated versions of the game, unlike the vast majority of simulations puts more control of unit variables and capabilities and terrain at my finger tips than I can list in several hours of documenting. This clearly is not a weakness. Take your time. If the game shows you something you do not like find a way to edit it to what you do enjoy then post it and wait for your following to show up. If it is a good change many a player will post you back. However, regardless of what you do expect some comments on the contrary, such is life. In fact you are not even required to respond to them!!! Fortunately we do not have to relive this very tough period in history for many Nations just to quibble over how fast I can kill you by being with such and so and this much perfect a shot and whoops see what i mean everyone can see that your point is correct. But so were the atrocities, by all sides and I haven`t asked for them to be simulated! Play with it and adjust it to give you what you want. That`s what all those settings are there for, to boot play it vs someone who would feel that not shooting 50 tanks in one sitting would be unrealistic ... that is versatility. And not!!! Hope you stick with it, you might feel rewarded over time. MindSpy




Wild Bill -> (2/1/2001 5:22:00 AM)

Okay 9-1! Let me offer you an alternative. We have a number of good campaigns based on actions in WW2, both East and West Front. You might particularly enjoy the long campaign, "Utah to the Rhine." Coming up still is "Gold," "Stalingrad," and "Arras"...and more to come from folks outside the Matrix team who are designing them. Some of these you already have in the game. Others can be found on the support sites or perhaps (if it is working) the Matrix Game Depot. I think you will find these to reflect the actions of the times much more accurately. I hope you will give them a try. AS to your comments about units "banging," you should remember each hex represents 50 yards (more or less) or half the length of a football field from one side to another. The appearance of the vehicle filling the hex is deceptive but is done to aid your eyes. Actually there would be space for all those vehicles to enter the hex with some room to spare. Generated battles or campaigns will never have the "realism" flavor of edited and designed ones. You should try these before you close the door completely. Again, I hope you will. I'd be interested in your comments about them. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games




skukko -> (2/1/2001 5:47:00 AM)

Aah [img]http://208.185.88.171/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Finally I can breed again...don't close the site anymore, my lungs ain't that good [img]http://208.185.88.171/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Ok I've been reading this topic offline now about four weeks and done some research of few german tankcompanies. It is quite easy to get what is needed, if there is enough time. How about doing campaign of some named battlegroup, company or what you prefer? Not just a front or series of battles without history. In that way you'll be able to go around the world more realistical. You could take for example first company off the 'Das Reich' and fight with it, get new tanks only after three months when your tankcrews have became excellent recons with smg:s and light infantry equipment. Some of them have died, but that is why there is crews in schools. Travel with them from Eastern Front to Normandie. Does it sound good? I think it's great idea, -but Maps have to be done and some more research. And lots of time. (Again.) Leaving idea to you dear gamers mosh




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