RE: B-17 & B-24 (Full Version)

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Dili -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (9/25/2012 2:40:48 PM)

quote:

My immediate observation is that cutting the bomb load in half gets you an extra 1 hex of mission radius?? That's counter-intuitive.



Maybe 1732 gallons is the maximum internal fuel possible(internal means no bomb bay tanks). But maybe treespider can put 6 bombs instead of 4 or the game just automatically reduces the load to half?



treespider -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (9/25/2012 2:48:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

My immediate observation is that cutting the bomb load in half gets you an extra 1 hex of mission radius?? That's counter-intuitive.



Maybe 1732 gallons is the maximum internal fuel possible(internal means no bomb bay tanks). But maybe treespider can put 6 bombs instead of 4 or the game just automatically reduces the load to half?




1732 gallons is the maximum internal fuel without the use of wing tanks or bomb bay tanks.

Extended Range load is established by the scenario designer in the editor.

In the case of the B-17 I believe the "standard" bomb bay tank load was with four bombs. I read at least one account where a B-17 setting out on patrol was lost when (paraphrasing) "the bomb bay tank and 1 of 4 bombs exploded."



US87891 -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (9/25/2012 8:15:23 PM)

Hello. Back. Thanks to those of you who knew why I was gone and sent me those supportive emails. They were nice to read. I'll not forget you.
quote:


Hi Spidey.
Had the same issue with fuel/endurance things for ships. Had relay good data for the USN, but what to do with the IJN, Brits, Dutch, French, oh … my!!

Did a gazillion curves and graphs and charts and math and finally got things lined up. Took me two days to translate the raw data for the USN, but 2 weeks to dial up that stuff for other folks who didn’t publish their actuals and had to go onto a math scale.

The same thing holds true for planes. Don’t care what you found for B-17/24s, thing is they have to reside within a system. You can do what you wish with B-17/24s, but unless your new numbers (and philosophy) plays with every other level bomber in the game, you are grasping at straws. The game principle is unification across ALL units.

Respectfully, John



inqistor -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (9/29/2012 10:31:50 AM)

How do you calculate maximum range WITHOUT drop-tanks?

I am pretty sure, that you can not click it, if there is not enough supply in base, so that put some restrains on transfer through small islands.




Also, game engine draws direct lines, but that does not mean, that planes fly in straight, so you could cut some range for extra navigational/safety paths.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

In the case of the B-17 I believe the "standard" bomb bay tank load was with four bombs. I read at least one account where a B-17 setting out on patrol was lost when (paraphrasing) "the bomb bay tank and 1 of 4 bombs exploded."

Bradley mentions, that British bombers could not be equipped with smaller bombs for St. Lo attack, but American could (he wanted no craters for ground assault), so this is more about available space, not sheer number.



Dili -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (9/29/2012 4:59:56 PM)

quote:

How do you calculate maximum range WITHOUT drop-tanks?


If it is with same all up weight and the tanks are internal (means not aerodynamic effect) is just enough to discover the specific fuel consumption km per kg of fuel or the equivalent imperial measure. It is also the best way to check if the range of an aircraft is off if there isn't a manual available.




el cid again -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (10/16/2012 1:22:26 AM)

The real problem is none of these ranges come with loads. The very same plane has different ranges
according to the load. For most of WWII, most of the time, the "normal range" of a USAAF heavy
bomber was defined with a 5,000 pound bomb load. [One B-17 however for some reason was defined
with 6,000 pounds]

There are really three ranges that matter re bombers: no-load (transfer or ferry) range;
normal load range and maximum load range. The same aircraft also could operate over a longer
range with less than normal range. In game terms, this is complicated because we do not get so
many options. Ferry range is easiest - the actual range of the aircraft without bombs = game
transfer range. If that is chosen to define the range of the aircraft, use 57% of that for "extended
range" and 48% for "normal range" - for internal load horizontal bombers. These are rules of thumb,
but work remarkably well. Define the max load field with the real max load for the bomber, but
put the normal load in the first page of weapons and the reduced load in the second page for weapons.
In general, bomber ranges and loads are understated vs real operations. Even using the actual ranges
does not permit all real operations due to map projection issues, but it permits most of them.



jwilkerson -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (10/16/2012 4:00:13 PM)

While an airplane range can be "hard and fast" when it comes to running out of fuel and crash landing or ditching ... we tend to try to make ranges much more "hard and fast" than they were. The idea that there is ONE RIGHT RANGE for each airplane - seems to be stuck "hard and fast" in our heads.

One group of missions which will illustrate the point are the missions from the Biak/Nemfor area in Sept/Oct 1944 against Balikpapan. These were multi-group raids which got outside the box in terms of B-24 range. The USAAF wanted to bomb Balikpapan - and they worked with what they had to make it possible. It is variables like this which push back against the idea of "one number for all occasions" as regards range.




Dili -> RE: B-17 & B-24 (10/16/2012 8:04:01 PM)

Make a version/small number for extreme ranges, but don't the pool gets cleaned if no airplane at units?



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