RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (Full Version)

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Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/9/2012 12:03:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

So, converting 109s to italian fighters is a good idea?
and why do they need X2 Fiat engines?? They are single engined fighters and do not use unreliable jet engines....


The requirement for 2 engines is supposed to reflect the numerous problems that were encountered in manufacturing certain Italian engines and its effect in delaying overall production.

Converting 109's to Italian types.......Well a few things to consider:

1)Although the Italian types have a firepower advantage over the bf-109, the Messerschmitt is still superior to early model Spits and the P-40s which make up the early allied air forces in the Mediterranean. By the time the Allies upgrade you will be able to upgrade to later models of the 109.

2) Production of Italian types is limited to a few factories in Italy. Is the loss of production caused by switching out German factories worth it considering for the same disruptions you could be building FW-190's, researching Ta-152's and latter model 109's, etc?
(ie a slight advantage early in the game at the cost of development later).

3) Against the AI anything is fair, but in a PBEM your opponent has the ability to "respond in kind". So if you start equipping your German squadrons with Italian fighters you cant really complain if he starts filling out RAF squadrons with P-47's and B-17's.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/9/2012 12:27:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey


quote:

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

So, converting 109s to italian fighters is a good idea?
and why do they need X2 Fiat engines?? They are single engined fighters and do not use unreliable jet engines....


The requirement for 2 engines is supposed to reflect the numerous problems that were encountered in manufacturing certain Italian engines and its effect in delaying overall production.

Converting 109's to Italian types.......Well a few things to consider:

1)Although the Italian types have a firepower advantage over the bf-109, the Messerschmitt is still superior to early model Spits and the P-40s which make up the early allied air forces in the Mediterranean. By the time the Allies upgrade you will be able to upgrade to later models of the 109.

2) Production of Italian types is limited to a few factories in Italy. Is the loss of production caused by switching out German factories worth it considering for the same disruptions you could be building FW-190's, researching Ta-152's and latter model 109's, etc?
(ie a slight advantage early in the game at the cost of development later).

3) Against the AI anything is fair, but in a PBEM your opponent has the ability to "respond in kind". So if you start equipping your German squadrons with Italian fighters you cant really complain if he starts filling out RAF squadrons with P-47's and B-17's.


1) That's true!

2) I do not plan to expand production too much. on 31st of August I plan to downgrade all italian squadrons to worthless planes and move all Veltros, Sagittarios and Centauros to pool. And then I'll reequip only few luftwaffe gruppen in Italy with them.

3) I play against AI. And I don't try to recreate historical income. I find testing alternate strategies and researching some planes more challenging and fun.

4) Pips Priller finally got few kills after I equipped his Schippol based Stab with Re.2005s [:)] That is fun to me.



Dobey455 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (10/9/2012 4:25:56 PM)

Best of Luck.

Let me know if you see a major difference between those German units equipt with the 109 when compared to those with the decent Italian planes.



Paraminator -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (11/1/2012 10:11:50 AM)

I make a test.
Only for research. [;)]
310 Rounds in four weeks.
I get my first T152H in January 1944.
Bulid 50 planes in any day.
And this plane is a really beast. [&o]
Fast. Very good range. And very deadly against P47 & P51.
An attack with 63 B26 and many escort-fighter, ends with 63 B26 in the ground. Any many of the escortfighters go down with small losses.
My losses with the T152H are by my own FLAK or when the airfield is under attack.

[image]local://upfiles/43069/18A20BC534184045827215A1388B9A12.jpg[/image



[image]local://upfiles/43069/18A20BC534184045827215A1388B9A12.jpg[/image]



CV Zuikaku -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (11/7/2012 9:40:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Best of Luck.

Let me know if you see a major difference between those German units equipt with the 109 when compared to those with the decent Italian planes.


G55s tends to get lots of kills but with horrible losses of their own. Re2005s are fast and lethal. Much better than G6s. Real fighter killers. Mc205 Veltros are good. Better than G6s ,not lethal as Re2005s but tend to take much lesser losses.



yubari -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (11/7/2012 11:32:54 PM)

quote:


310 Rounds in four weeks.


Wowsers, that is fast play, congratulations! I have only reached turn 235 from a game I started in 2009.

As I said earlier in this thread, I thought that this tactic would lead to serious game balance problems and it does appear to be so, the allies just don't have a chance if 50 Ta152s are being made a day in January 1944.



kaleun -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (7/27/2013 5:09:01 PM)

The need for 2 fiat engines is to represent the difficulty Fiat had in building the licensed DB engine (They needed parts from Germany that DB was not sending in enough numbers)



HRL58 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (6/16/2017 7:37:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Strv103C

I'm in the 43GC as german and in mid december 43 the P-51B seems unstoppable. Is there any recommended tactic against those P-51 escorted raids?


Ok, this is a tip from the old Talon soft game, but I'll guess its useful in this matrix version

Never ever directly intercept escorted raids. Instead form concentrated patrols and continually bounce their escorts with G-14s and FW 190D from high altitude. Always attack the highest escort first, and concentrate on the late arrivals (those are the guys with the most fuel). Let your bomber detroyers shadow the raid until the escorts begin to thin out and turn home ...then the bomber massacre can begin.

Another tip, use refuelled fighters to harras the P51 on their return flights, you can down a lot of them this way. And don't miss the bomber stragglers, your units can rack up a lot of kills picking those down.



RichardL58 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (1/9/2021 3:24:25 PM)

The trick is to overwelm the escorts with your best and most experienced units.

Form patrols in packs of 5-6 Gruppen at high level for engaging every escorting element before you commit the bomber destroyers. Also form a bunch of patrols consisting of swarms of 4 planes (or 12), to shadow the raid at close distance during combat, for engaging those escort groups that split in two and try to chew up your heavy Fw:s or twin engines.

You should also first check the raiders real altitude (the radar doesn't always give the corret altitude). Do a "banzai" intercept with a swarm right in the middle of the raid group, and recall it at once when it made contact.



mark dolby -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (1/9/2021 6:58:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RichardL58



You should also first check the raiders real altitude (the radar doesn't always give the corret altitude). Do a "banzai" intercept with a swarm right in the middle of the raid group, and recall it at once when it made contact.

Actually make that schwarm equipped with G55 at the start of the game and 109G5AS when you have them at max altitude. You will be 10k above any escorts who won't touch you, you will see the exact composition, speed and height of all components and you can stay with the raid if you want without risk. Also if one of those bombers drops out you can bounce it by already being in the air.



RichardL58 -> RE: How to defeat P-51 escorts? (2/1/2021 5:12:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mark dolby


quote:

ORIGINAL: RichardL58



You should also first check the raiders real altitude (the radar doesn't always give the corret altitude). Do a "banzai" intercept with a swarm right in the middle of the raid group, and recall it at once when it made contact.

Actually make that schwarm equipped with G55 at the start of the game and 109G5AS when you have them at max altitude. You will be 10k above any escorts who won't touch you, you will see the exact composition, speed and height of all components and you can stay with the raid if you want without risk. Also if one of those bombers drops out you can bounce it by already being in the air.


For historical reasons I don't equip german units with italian planes, but I equip the hungarian and romainians with them ...so I have a hungarian G55 staffel for "high level" duty in France :-)



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