RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (Full Version)

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bryanhbell -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/27/2012 10:23:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

If you don't have any facts or figures, how can you discuss an opinion; much less a business one?

Also, I think Erik knows his job well enough to judge for himself whether or not Steam distribution is worthwhile. Respecting his decision is a "strong view" I do hold to.


I think you're expecting more rigorous analysis than is appropriate for a forum such as this.

Granted, opinions supported by facts and figures are more likely to be accepted, and deservedly so. But facts and figures don't always factor in to discussions of opinion. It doesn't seem right to attempt to shut down conversation on a topic just because people aren't citing statistics to support their opinions. People should feel free to express their opinions here. Take, for example, your opinion that we should respect Erik's business decisions. You didn't (and probably couldn't) cite any figures to support this assertion. Instead, you probably have what you consider to be good reasons for your view. In a discussion of this opinion on this forum, citing your reasons would be enough.

You might be conflating knowledge with opinion. Knowledge is the result of positive analysis (what is demonstrably true) while opinion is the result of normative analysis (what ought to be true). I don't think the participants here are claiming certain knowledge about Matrix Games' business decisions. They're only expressing their opinion about what they'd like Matrix Games to do.



Satosky -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/27/2012 10:39:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Igor


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Youtube Codeforce needs to update its tags on the videos

gangnam style [:D]
Just have them add some cute baby animals such as kittens to one of the videos and it will probably have 1 million views by the end of day 1. [;)]



TheJian -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/28/2012 12:09:52 PM)

Well said.. what makes a game better IMO, is being able to come to a forum and give your opinion, and the old gamers not act like you cant say what you feel.. this forum is like most, it turns most people away..IMO
quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

If you don't have any facts or figures, how can you discuss an opinion; much less a business one?

Also, I think Erik knows his job well enough to judge for himself whether or not Steam distribution is worthwhile. Respecting his decision is a "strong view" I do hold to.


I think you're expecting more rigorous analysis than is appropriate for a forum such as this.

Granted, opinions supported by facts and figures are more likely to be accepted, and deservedly so. But facts and figures don't always factor in to discussions of opinion. It doesn't seem right to attempt to shut down conversation on a topic just because people aren't citing statistics to support their opinions. People should feel free to express their opinions here. Take, for example, your opinion that we should respect Erik's business decisions. You didn't (and probably couldn't) cite any figures to support this assertion. Instead, you probably have what you consider to be good reasons for your view. In a discussion of this opinion on this forum, citing your reasons would be enough.

You might be conflating knowledge with opinion. Knowledge is the result of positive analysis (what is demonstrably true) while opinion is the result of normative analysis (what ought to be true). I don't think the participants here are claiming certain knowledge about Matrix Games' business decisions. They're only expressing their opinion about what they'd like Matrix Games to do.




bryanhbell -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/28/2012 12:50:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheJian
Well said.. what makes a game better IMO, is being able to come to a forum and give your opinion, and the old gamers not act like you cant say what you feel.. this forum is like most, it turns most people away..IMO


Thank you, though I must say that when I first came here, I personally found the "old timers" to be quite welcoming. I think this is a pretty nice community here.



TheJian -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/28/2012 1:13:00 PM)

I was not really talking about this game in particular .. just most forums..I have found most of the new people here have a more open mind, but you will always have the fan boys and the people who mod the game feeling what they say and feel is important and has more weight.. if you think you can come online and agree with most people you are delusional..That is what is so amazing about the internet, you can meet people with different viewpoints.. Most of us attack people simply because they have a different point of view.... people like this need to stay off computer till they grow up IMO...
quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheJian
Well said.. what makes a game better IMO, is being able to come to a forum and give your opinion, and the old gamers not act like you cant say what you feel.. this forum is like most, it turns most people away..IMO


Thank you, though I must say that when I first came here, I personally found the "old timers" to be quite welcoming. I think this is a pretty nice community here.



Shark7 -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/28/2012 4:04:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheJian

Most of us attack people simply because they have a different point of view.... people like this need to stay off computer till they grow up IMO...




That would reduce the internet population by a minimum of 99%. [:D]

But it is also important not to confuse a lively debate with an attack. You are never going to get everyone to agree with you...and quite frankly I'd be frightened if that ever did happen. We need the diversity, not to become a monolithic society. Without diversity we stagnate.



TheJian -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/28/2012 4:48:51 PM)

Absolutely Shark7.. I'm just from the opinion that some individuals believe debate is actually making personal assumptions about an individual or making personal attacks.. you can a attack someone's conclusion about a particular subject without attacking them personally.

I've always understood the most effective way of doing this was asking questions..anything else is just intellectual masturbation...aka(lively debate)

Anyway when you have a game with a high price point.. I believe the community has a direct impact on its growth.. 1 of the most effective ways to increase a community IMO, is how people interact with each other on the forums.. as with most games people watch the forums from the sidelines... so when you have the people who are very opinionated and very obnoxious .. it stops people from the sideline from joining..people are attracted by numbers... the more actively participating the better, and let's face it the price point of the game makes it very difficult to grow an audience.. little activity on a forums also makes people assume the game is not worth getting.... plus unfortunately when you have such a small fan base the update will be geared towards them.. this also will decrease the appeal to the majority.


As with all games I've ever played.. you always have the people who have modded the game think that their input and use on a game supercede everyone else.. this is a very unique point about this game because it is not that difficult to mod.. all the things you can mod are very superficial.. it puts everybody on a very equal playing field.. on 1 hand I'm quite surprised that the game has not grown much.. but on the other I am NOT.. I personally watch these forums a year before I even join them... The game is good if you compare to what is out.. just like people often bring up other games here i have never seen this game talked about on other game site i go 2. you want the game to grow, go talk about it..



wozza -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 6:55:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The only thing I can add to this discussion is this: If the game had been offered on Steam and not here at Matrix, I wouldn't be playing it.

My point being...there is always some group of potential customers you will miss despite which sales model you use. You've got people that have never heard of Matrix, and you have people like me that refuse to use Steam, etc etc etc. Basically its almost impossible to reach every potential customer...even with TV, Radio and internet advertising. Some will always fall through the cracks and be missed.

Multiple avenues can be better, but only if it helps the company, not costs it more than its worth.

I still yet to understand how some customers would miss out on this business model DRM free and no Steam. I know there are people who want Steam but you can still play it with out it. Is it because the people who want Steam want to store it in the library and don't want any discs.



bryanhbell -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 10:20:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza
I still yet to understand how some customers would miss out on this business model DRM free and no Steam. I know there are people who want Steam but you can still play it with out it. Is it because the people who want Steam want to store it in the library and don't want any discs.


I believe the thinking is that without making Distant Worlds available through multiple distribution channels such as Steam or GOG that many people who might buy the game don't even know it exists. Whatever your feelings about Steam, it does provide games with pretty significant exposure (nearly 5.5 million potential customers currently). Steam (and most of the other online retailers) offer multiple avenues for gamers to communicate about the games on their service (user recommendations, games other users are playing, user screenshots and videos, discussion boards, etc.). If, like many publishers on Steam, Matrix Games offered Distant Worlds direct and DRM-free on their own site in addition to Steam, then gamers could choose whichever purchase model they preferred, but at least many more gamers would find out about the game.



wozza -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 11:01:29 AM)

It is available at Paradox Gamersgate though.



bryanhbell -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 11:43:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza
It is available at Paradox Gamersgate though.


Whoa! I didn't know that. That's cool. Seems appropriate since Paradox is known for strategy games. Too bad only the base game is available there. GamersGate probably doesn't provide the degree of exposure that Steam could though.



Shark7 -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 5:32:28 PM)

Yeah, I'd never even heard of gamersgate until it was mentioned here.



Velihopea -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 6:58:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza
It is available at Paradox Gamersgate though.


Paradox doesn't own Gamersgate anymore, although GG started as digital distributor of Paradox games. Paradox has also stated that after they started selling their games in Steam (as of HOI3) 90% of their sales come from there.

Thats a huge increase in sales.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 7:19:00 PM)

Hi guys,

We welcome debate here - don't let the occasional negative poster get you down.

We are very open-minded and share the mission expressed here to make Distant Worlds as well-known and popular as possible. We have not been sitting on our hands in this regard. A lot has been accomplished and attempted as far as marketing and raising awareness, including retail and other distribution deals. We will keep working to make Distant Worlds as successful as possible, but unfortunately as with many things, there's no "get rich quick" method or easy fix or single solution. It just takes a lot of continuing hard work to open as many doors as possible.

Regards,

- Erik



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 8:18:36 PM)

The Unity of Command developer was very happy when his game appeared on Steam.It is nuts not to have DistantWorlds on steam.Elliot should not be a lone wolf developer with a game like this after 2 years.



Satosky -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 9:57:17 PM)

Could always do an ama(ask me anything) or go to r/gaming on Reddit and advertise/introduce the game there as they are usually very open towards new and largely unknown games such as this one.

Plenty of youtube game reviewers(notably the AngryJoeShow since he is a big fan of 4X with 200k subscribers) you could ask as well.

Steam is great for those that love having their game in one place but its not for everyone.(drm and all that fun stuff) ^^ I don't mind either way.




wozza -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/29/2012 10:28:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea

quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza
It is available at Paradox Gamersgate though.


Paradox doesn't own Gamersgate anymore, although GG started as digital distributor of Paradox games. Paradox has also stated that after they started selling their games in Steam (as of HOI3) 90% of their sales come from there.

Thats a huge increase in sales.


I still have the feeling that Paradox still own some shares in it because GG is very closely linked to Paradox.



bryanhbell -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/30/2012 6:30:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi guys,

We welcome debate here - don't let the occasional negative poster get you down.

We are very open-minded and share the mission expressed here to make Distant Worlds as well-known and popular as possible. We have not been sitting on our hands in this regard. A lot has been accomplished and attempted as far as marketing and raising awareness, including retail and other distribution deals. We will keep working to make Distant Worlds as successful as possible, but unfortunately as with many things, there's no "get rich quick" method or easy fix or single solution. It just takes a lot of continuing hard work to open as many doors as possible.

Regards,

- Erik



Yeah, it's pretty easy for us customers to be armchair quarterbacking Matrix Games' business decisions, but it's another thing entirely to be on the field executing the actual plays. I think for the most part we get that and know we're only expressing our desires as players of Distant Worlds. Anyway, we all essentially want to see the same thing: widespread success for Distant Worlds! [:)]



ehsumrell1 -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/30/2012 7:08:06 AM)

Well said Bryanhbell! [sm=happy0065.gif]



Velihopea -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/30/2012 7:40:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wozza
I still have the feeling that Paradox still own some shares in it because GG is very closely linked to Paradox.


True, at least Johan owns part of GG. Paradox as a company doesn't, but they still have close relations though. I believe their offices are on the same building still.

But to the original point: GG is clearly a small vendor compared to steam. And even quite niche strategy developer like Paradox have had great success after steam distribution. (They used to have one team making games, I believe now they have 4 teams)

"Anyway, we all essentially want to see the same thing: widespread success for Distant Worlds!"
Agree, DW is quite unique in this time when scifi 4x is populated with many MoO'alikes (don't get me wrong, I like ES). And I do appreciate the efforts that Matrix is putting for the game. Thanks Erik for commenting on the issue.



Satosky -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/30/2012 8:03:17 PM)

I'll just start uploading and narrating some interesting after action reports and see where that takes me. [8D]



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/30/2012 10:05:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell


Yeah, it's pretty easy for us customers to be armchair quarterbacking Matrix Games' business decisions, but it's another thing entirely to be on the field executing the actual plays. I think for the most part we get that and know we're only expressing our desires as players of Distant Worlds. Anyway, we all essentially want to see the same thing: widespread success for Distant Worlds! [:)]


Name one publisher that does not have their games on steam apart from Matrix? It is pretty clear nobody in the games industry seems to agree with this policy.



bryanhbell -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/30/2012 11:21:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
Name one publisher that does not have their games on steam apart from Matrix? It is pretty clear nobody in the games industry seems to agree with this policy.


Here's a couple:

Disney Interactive Studios
Blizzard Entertainment



Kayoz -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/31/2012 4:38:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell
Granted, opinions supported by facts and figures are more likely to be accepted, and deservedly so.


I'm not sure how a discussion without any facts has any value. You might as well discuss the merits of pink over yellow as to which is the "better" colour. As it has no value, I don't see why it's space on the forum database is merited.

Perhaps it's your goal that is different - as you indicate from your statement - your goal is to have your argument accepted. Me, I'm less interested in proselytizing my point of view and far more interested in finding out new things. You want to spread your opinion, I want to learn.

So I guess that's why we have differing opinions on the value of a discussion similar to the blind men around the elephant - except that in your case, the men are put into sensory deprivation tanks and asked their opinion about what's in the building down the block.



Velihopea -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/31/2012 7:38:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I'm not sure how a discussion without any facts has any value. You might as well discuss the merits of pink over yellow as to which is the "better" colour. As it has no value, I don't see why it's space on the forum database is merited.


1) Digital distribution is beneficial for small developers = fact
2) Steam is the largest digital distributor of games = fact
3) Steam has millions of users = fact
4) Niche games have succeeded huge on steam = fact
5) Space 4x games have succeeded major on steam = fact
6) Matrix is small on digital distribution = fact
7) People are having trouble "finding" DW = fact

Also forecasting economic success and giving opinions about economic decisions are based on some facts, but their outcome is up to debate and can never be fact.

8) DW would be huge success on steam = probability is higher than 50% with high deviation around the expected value.

Are you saying that discussing issue number 8 is meaningless? Because facts we do have in basis of the discussion.



Kayoz -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/31/2012 8:21:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
1) Digital distribution is beneficial for small developers = fact

No, that is supposition. You have nothing to compare it against. No data, no FACTS to support that statement; it's supposition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
2) Steam is the largest digital distributor of games = fact
3) Steam has millions of users = fact


Cite your source for #2. Is there actually an independent publication which makes that statement? I believe Farmville alone had over 80 million as of 2010, which would make Facebook a larger distributor of games. How many games are played each and every day through Facebook, compared to Steam? The accuracy of #2 is entirely dependent on your definition of "distribution" and "game". Cite your source.

But there's a more important issue here - increased sales does not equal increased profit.
Since Erik didn't sign a contract with Steam, the only logical reason is that Steam distribution is not beneficial to Matrix and Code Force.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
4) Niche games have succeeded huge on steam = fact
5) Space 4x games have succeeded major on steam = fact

Cite your source.
Huge? Major? With such well defined parameters for "success", I'm paralyzed with the sheer number of sarcastic responses I could insert here. My apologies - use your imagination.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
6) Matrix is small on digital distribution = fact

Cite your source. You have numbers on Matrix sales figures?
Small compared to WHAT? As for the statement "small on digital distribution", I assume you're asserting that Matrix distributes more games physically than digitally (small digitally, large physical)? Your statement sounds patently absurd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
7) People are having trouble "finding" DW = fact

How is this relevant to maximizing the profits of Matrix and Code Force? Granted, it would be appealing to have DW marketing reach a wider audience, but Erik has quite specifically stated that Matrix is not a "mass market appeal" company.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
8) DW would be huge success on steam = probability is higher than 50% with high deviation around the expected value.


Cite your source. You've performed a business case study for Matrix? You've examined the proposed contract between Matrix and Steam?

You're specifying probability of increased profitability gain of (at least) 50% What's your source? As far as I know, the division of profits from Steam sales is confidential, and nobody releases any precise figures. You might as well say that your dangly bits will increased in size by 50% by using a (limited time offer) hand pump system.

Cite the source for #8. Please keep in mind that your rectal sphincter is not a "reliable source".

Like I said - no facts. All of the above is supposition and conjecture. You have stated NOTHING that would even meet the lowest standards of evidence in Wikipedia. And you have the gall to call these wild and unsubstantiated statements, "facts"?



bryanhbell -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/31/2012 9:10:08 AM)

Velihopea, I don't think further attempts to discuss this topic with Kayoz will be particularly fruitful. My advice is to leave it alone.



Kayoz -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/31/2012 9:35:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell

Velihopea, I don't think further attempts to discuss this topic with Kayoz will be particularly fruitful. My advice is to leave it alone.

If he actually brings any "facts" that don't originate from his rectum, we can have a lively discussion.

However, all but one of his above statements (I have not disputed #3) - or "facts" or so he claims - I have challenged.

All I have asked, thus far, is that he provide proof to their reliability. What, for example, is the basis of his claim that it's more than 50% likely that DW would be a "huge success on Steam"? Why 50? Why not 70, or 80 or 90%? Or am I correct in assuming that his "50%" figure first saw the light of day as it emerged from between his butt cheeks?

Do I ask for too much? Well, by your standards, Bryan, that seems to be the case. See deprivation tank statement above. Apparently you think that discussion of issues we know nothing about and have no facts, is somehow not a complete waste of time.

Let's have a discussion about the weather conditions at a randomly selected location - which neither of us is told. Facts, in your opinion, aren't a requirement for a discussion.



Velihopea -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/31/2012 9:49:44 AM)

Kayoz: You do understand you are nitpicking? Digging up all the possible sources would take time that I will not be using my time on. I just say that those facts have been presented on relevant forums and if you don't believe me then I understand what you are calling me.

1) Many independent niche developers have stated this; Paradox for one.
2) Facebook is hardly a possible vendor for DW, so you are just arguing to win an argument on irrelevant detail.
3) Absolute fact
4-5) Paradox and Amplitude have revealed sales figures (not exact) on steam
6) So you are really trying to say that MAtrix is anywhere as big as steam on digital distribution? If exact figures are not available (as they seldom are), use your common sense, man. When it's raining a lot outside, I can say "It's raining a lot outside" as a fact. You could nitpick that I cannot possibly have the exact number of raindrops calculated. But that doesn't mean that it's sunshine out there for god's sake.
7) Check point #4

8) Again. Nobody will have exact figures to calculate #8. It's always a quess based on underlying facts (or close estimates of real figures). Nobody would do any business at all, if all the facts you require would have to be available.

For example projected income from steam: PRICE * PERCENTAGE_TO_STEAM * VOLUME_OF_SALES

You can only questimate VOLUME_OF_SALES here, which is the most determining factor.

"Since Erik didn't sign a contract with Steam, the only logical reason is that Steam distribution is not beneficial to Matrix and Code Force."
No. You don't understand business at all if you say so. Other logical explanation is that Developer of DW has questimated the VOLUME_OF_SALES figure here so that they have decided that income from Steam are not worthwhile (does not exceed costs). And my point is: Steam volume of sales can be large for DW to be huge success (based on facts given above)

So I have more facts (or close estimates of true values if you start again nitpicking) than you will ever have. You just lack all the facts or even estimates of true values and by irrelevant argumentation try to make this sound some purely opinion based discussion. Which it is not.



Velihopea -> RE: Where have you been hiding this game? (10/31/2012 10:03:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bryanhbell
Velihopea, I don't think further attempts to discuss this topic with Kayoz will be particularly fruitful. My advice is to leave it alone.


True. Kayoz clearly has his mind set and he will do his best to nullify these discussions. Usually with these types of discussions where argumentation always shifts to the irrelevant details it's always an endless road. No one can give 100% proof with relevant links to every detail. And when one fails to do so, for lack of time or sources, the "digger" will self-declare his case won. It's either 0 or 1. And the rounding goes so that 0,9 is rounded to 0.



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