Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (Full Version)

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PKH -> Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/17/2012 11:11:16 AM)

From what I've heard, anti air units were used to attack ground targets all the time, and were very effective vs. entrenched forces. IMO, they should be able to be used offensively vs ground targets, and the switch button for 88's f.ex. should just be removed.



Josh -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/17/2012 2:03:08 PM)

+1
I wonder why that is too, maybe because they would become too powerful?



PKH -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/17/2012 2:16:14 PM)

I don't think they would be overpowered, since they are still much weaker than tanks with their low armor. IMO, they should be given a range of 1 vs ground targets, so they could be used in a standoff role against entrenched units which is how they were used.

Also, what is the idea about not allowing artillery and anti air to capture victory locations. It's just annoying and makes little sense to me.



Razz1 -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/18/2012 3:33:56 AM)

It was not common to use AA for ground attack.

Only certain types of units used this strategy during the war Like the 88mm



PKH -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/18/2012 9:22:00 AM)

It's not true that only the 88mm were used like that. I've seen film of 20mm anti air used against the allied landing in Anzio, and other fiml clips. If you see the 'guns of the wehrmacht' documentary on youtube, it says that 20mm was extensively used to support ground forces, and also shows footage of it's use in that role. Wikipedia also says about the 20mm flak that it was an effective weapon against ground targets, and about the 37mm it says "Having a flexible doctrine, the Germans used their anti-aircraft pieces in ground support roles as well. 37 mm caliber guns were no exception to that."



histgamer -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/18/2012 10:06:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PKH

It's not true that only the 88mm were used like that. I've seen film of 20mm anti air used against the allied landing in Anzio, and other fiml clips. If you see the 'guns of the wehrmacht' documentary on youtube, it says that 20mm was extensively used to support ground forces, and also shows footage of it's use in that role. Wikipedia also says about the 20mm flak that it was an effective weapon against ground targets, and about the 37mm it says "Having a flexible doctrine, the Germans used their anti-aircraft pieces in ground support roles as well. 37 mm caliber guns were no exception to that."



I'm not sure I would give any credence to Wikipedia when one considers what to include in a game or not... just saying.



PKH -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/18/2012 1:07:44 PM)

Believe what you like. The facts are that they were used in a ground support role, and having them as defensive only in the game is just a needless limitation. If you do a google search, you can find multiple independent sources for this, including extracts from US intelligence bulletins.



Dragoon. -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/18/2012 4:47:32 PM)

Panzer Corps is like Panzer General a game that gives an abstract view of the battlefield. A unit icon may represent a full platoon, company or battalion depending on the scenario and scale, thus it's more about overall strategy than tactics. If you start using an AA-regiment detachment offensively you're are probably in more deep **** than you realize.

This is completely different for example with the game Steel Panthers. Here each unit icon actually represent an individual unit (exceptions my be done for infantry units). It's all about tactics, so it's complete legit to tow a 2cm Flak gun into an elevated position to provide covering fire.
If you prefer squadron or platoon sized battles with individual units I strongly encourage you to browser the Matrix game catalog. There are quite a few gems to be found.
There is even a free version of Steel Panther World at War available.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1713246



Razz1 -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/18/2012 6:49:05 PM)

Re-read my post. I never said ONLY the 88mm.

I said like, that was an example.

Technically tanks can do indirect fire and become artillery. So what is your point?

Tanks were not used like that.

The equipment already takes care of ground support, no need to create a bunch of icons.





PKH -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/18/2012 10:14:31 PM)

Dragoon: I don't feel the scale of the units matter. It represents an AA unit in this game, and if I want to risk it in an offensive role, that should be my choice. I have played steel panthers iii quite a bit the last year in dosbox, and also have several other games from matrix.

Razz: True, you did say only units like the 88mm. My point is that it should be my choice, since the units are clearly capable of attacking ground targets, and it's easy to find sources which says and shows light aa units were used for that other than as a last resort. I don't see a need for a bunch new icons to do this.

I don't expect it will be added to the game, but I really don't see why anyone would resist having the choice.



wodin -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/19/2012 8:23:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PKH

It's not true that only the 88mm were used like that. I've seen film of 20mm anti air used against the allied landing in Anzio, and other fiml clips. If you see the 'guns of the wehrmacht' documentary on youtube, it says that 20mm was extensively used to support ground forces, and also shows footage of it's use in that role. Wikipedia also says about the 20mm flak that it was an effective weapon against ground targets, and about the 37mm it says "Having a flexible doctrine, the Germans used their anti-aircraft pieces in ground support roles as well. 37 mm caliber guns were no exception to that."




So it's being used in a defensive role...

As others have said due to it's abstract nature I presume thats why they went for defensive role only. Also that was probably it's main ground role in defense rather than in attack.



PKH -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/20/2012 8:26:21 AM)

quote:

So it's being used in a defensive role...


In that particular clip it was used in a defensive battle, but not in an emergency self defense role, which is the only way it can be used vs ground forces in the game. I can't be bothered arguing about this anymore, but information which backs my position is easily available to anyone who cares to look for it.



fuelli -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/22/2012 11:38:29 AM)

Maybe you have to distinguish between a unit and a certain weapon. While an AA weapon may have been used for attack this may not count for an AA unit that is using that particular AA weapon. And that is what is depicted in PC. The use of certain units and not certain weapons.



demyansk -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (11/22/2012 11:49:04 AM)

I used to play the Steel Panthers game all the time. I just wish the graphics could be updated to our new screens. I am able to play now if I wanted to but the graphics are not crisp. Yes, the part about artillery not capturing a flag is a pain but one of the rules, oh well, playing the 1944 campaign and its hopeless!!!!



The_Drill_SGT -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (12/16/2012 10:39:10 PM)

By 44, The US Army had air superiority, if not supremacy. At that point, many of the towed or SP (HT) Quad 50 cal units were detached from their normal assignments in support of Artillery in an AA role and used as direct fire support.

I wasn't there in '44, but trust me, in Vietnam, the quad 50 and the twin 40mm duster were awesome suppressive direct fire weapons.




Richie61 -> RE: Why are anti air only defensive vs ground ? (1/4/2013 3:26:15 PM)

The German Army did use the 3.7 cm Flak against ground targets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48zE-hRAYEA



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