RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (Full Version)

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WoT -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/22/2012 8:00:10 AM)

see, each is different

[image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HXx0e6I2Kk4/SDz3s6cPzEI/AAAAAAAAAyM/NtGnGQdyVRc/s1600/1Ds06109_Baumreihe_Feldrand.jpg[/image]



MikeGER -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/22/2012 8:21:56 AM)

sure !
but its still a Close Combat sim, not a Close Gardening sim. [;)]

its not a problem to generate trees that are different with special software routines build in , even on the fly every new game,
but would you have liked to pay 400$ instead of 40$ to get that level of detail ?
...
as a work-around the map (overlay) is just a 'picture' and can be modded
(but the overlay should still fit to the underlaying grid of 'object types' of course)



WoT -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/22/2012 8:30:01 AM)

It's called immersion... cookie cutters take away the immersion.




Same with tanks not travelling where they should, but a bigger problem than cookie cutter trees.



MikeGER -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/22/2012 8:43:20 AM)

sure thing!

i hope Matrix had put most of the 'unseen' effort in AI routines, then in graphics, ...well, we are here to find that out[:)]
(i prefer a non-immersion-killing behavoir of pixel troops, over a few graphic slack-offs)



Stwa -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/22/2012 12:04:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire


quote:

ORIGINAL: PKH

The problem I have with reverse, is that after it is done and the tank has come to a stop, it will usually turn around 180 degrees unless given a defend/ambush order.


Can you give me an example of the sort of order you're giving that's causing the vehicles to turn around at the end?



I see it in CCMT some times. When a vehicle (tanks included), finish their move (any move). Sometimes they feel the need to face in a direction that I assume the vehicle commander feels is important. (could be up to 180 degrees)

Most of the time, it is not the facing I would prefer for the vehicle, so it requires that I re-position it with a defend or ambush order as PKH mentioned.

I use this alot so a tank doesn't get shot in its rear or side.

And yes, players should use Move Fast and Move Covert (CCMT commands), for short distance moves forward and backward that usually ALWAYS follow the blue line to the waypoint.



Stwa -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/22/2012 12:08:46 PM)

Is it possible for any player or maybe even Matrix to start a screenshot thread for this game?

I would like to see more pics than what is persented on the product page.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/22/2012 7:18:01 PM)

Yep... that's basically what I'd figured.

Back to AP and DCCB :)



MikeGER -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/23/2012 8:43:36 AM)

in the mean time i had found time to run some more 'Sherman driving tests' on that La Roche map area (my screenshot)

Sorry, its NOT a reaction to threats!

immersion speak on*

...it looks like there is some disturbance in the soil on that dirt road (not visible from so far above) that the Tankers think it could be a hastily buried AT mine. They play it save, and so they decide to circumvent that piece of road

immersion speak off*



Rosseau -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/23/2012 10:31:12 PM)

My brain and eye functions have deteriorated significantly since the intro of CoI [;)]

So I barely notice these pathing issues. I do notice PitF has come a loooong way from CoI. Good job.



xe5 -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/24/2012 12:57:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
For example, when on defense, is AI prone to put squads in the middle of open terrain when there are buildings nearby? When on attack, does he just rush his units towards objectives via shortest (and possibly deadleist) route or it is paying more attention to cover, flanks etc.?

The AI makes better use of cover and concealment (bldgs & hedges) prior to and during battle. If caught in the open it will seek to go into Ambush mode where its soldier sprites are replaced by a unit icon which then gradually fades from view, much like CC1's 'ghost soldiers'. Firing at enemy icons is treated as area fire rather than targeted fire and is consideraby less effective.

It doesnt recognize and avoid kill zones but also doesnt always attack via the most direct approach. It is actually most effective when it rushes an attack. AI troops sometimes seem to have a Fast+ speed similar to fleeing crews. Much preferable to the old crawl-of-death.

The AI is noticeably fatser at spotting and suppressing enemy units using targeted (red dot) fire. US players will quickly come to loathe the sound of MG42s as it means some team is getting chewed up.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/24/2012 2:41:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
For example, when on defense, is AI prone to put squads in the middle of open terrain when there are buildings nearby? When on attack, does he just rush his units towards objectives via shortest (and possibly deadleist) route or it is paying more attention to cover, flanks etc.?

The AI makes better use of cover and concealment (bldgs & hedges) prior to and during battle. If caught in the open it will seek to go into Ambush mode where its soldier sprites are replaced by a unit icon which then gradually fades from view, much like CC1's 'ghost soldiers'. Firing at enemy icons is treated as area fire rather than targeted fire and is consideraby less effective.

It doesnt recognize and avoid kill zones but also doesnt always attack via the most direct approach. It is actually most effective when it rushes an attack. AI troops sometimes seem to have a Fast+ speed similar to fleeing crews. Much preferable to the old crawl-of-death.

The AI is noticeably fatser at spotting and suppressing enemy units using targeted (red dot) fire. US players will quickly come to loathe the sound of MG42s as it means some team is getting chewed up.


OK... with the mix of good and bad comments I guess I need to come off the fence and play the game myself. Purchasing it now.



Tejszd -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/24/2012 4:55:01 PM)

redmarkus4 probably is best. Reality is usually between the more extreme examples and or views expressed. It will be CC you are buying so some of the same old quirks, some small tweaks and a couple big changes (in PiTF I would say these are the big changes; the new explosions/maps at 32bit, max. 21 teams/vehicles per side in battle, carrying men and towing guns, and the mortar changes.)



Beag -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/30/2012 3:12:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

OK... with the mix of good and bad comments I guess I need to come off the fence and play the game myself. Purchasing it now.


By all means please post your feedback on the AI, information from veterans is certainly greatly appreciated by privates considering to buy such games.



blazej -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/30/2012 7:13:51 PM)

Hi,

In my opinion, the offensive AI is as bad as ever. As soon as I started playing, I remembered why I found a human opponent the last time around - the AI is incapable of mounting an efficient attack, even with far superior firepower :)

In the scenario I was playing, Allies had several tanks (Germans had none to speak of) and infantry squads, and yet failed to make any significant gains even though many of my units were deployed towards the rear. The tanks were driving aimlessly, and infantry didn't try to secure important locations (such as buildings). I regretted having deployed so many units in the rear because I believe I had a shot at pushing the Allies off the map entirely. Without armor, mind you :)

Now I will have to pick an operation where I will be attacking. It should make for a more entertaining play :) (because the defensive AI is actually very good in CC).

On the strategic level, the AI also does weird things. I selected one of the operations (again, I was playing as Germany), and the first thing the Allied AI did was to move away from the Hill 314 map... This seemed so bizarre to me that I immediately went back and selected a different operation :)

Best,
Michal



Southernland -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/30/2012 9:57:28 PM)

I've just fought a battle in the GC with a depleted german recce unit vz a US armoured unit. The US took half the map in a 15 minute battle loosing a wolverine and an HMC and a few infantry units while I lost two A/Cs, three squads and a Pak40, the AI brought down artillary strike on one of my positions so it is able to do some things right.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (11/30/2012 10:28:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

OK... with the mix of good and bad comments I guess I need to come off the fence and play the game myself. Purchasing it now.


By all means please post your feedback on the AI, information from veterans is certainly greatly appreciated by privates considering to buy such games.


:) Well, 'Veteran' just means I post here a lot, not that I'm any good with the games themselves!

Anyway, it's been a while since I played CC and this title has been fun so far. Sure, the AI isn't perfect and you can probably take advantage of it big time, if you want to, but the game is solid, graphically appealing and has many good features.

If you like CC, or any game of this type, I am sure you won't regret buying this new release. I also expect it to become the foundation for future mods, which would be a good thing.



BigKev -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/3/2012 6:53:27 AM)

I have played ~ 30 battles (German and American), and I have seen several instances where tanks will not follows the straight line movement commanded by way point(s). They seem to veer off at least slightly, about 30% of the time, usually for no apparent reason (not under attack). This Does not ofent lead to unit loss due to enamy fire - but it often leads to America, armor becoming "tracked" (immobile). I would say on any given battle, 30% to 50% of my American armor wanders off into the hedges and becomes immobile. Very frustrating.

Is there any way for the devs to fix this?

P.S. If you really baby sit a unit, sometimes this wondering can be avoided... But this becomes tedious - and there are 20 other units to watch over...




SteveMcClaire -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/3/2012 7:05:22 AM)

The path finding is something I am looking at for a pending update, yes.  There are some issues with how the underlying terrain is represented in the game which make narrow 'corridors', like roads lined with hedgerows or trees, a problem for the path finder.



blazej -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/3/2012 3:01:24 PM)

OK, I'll give it another shot, then :)

Best,
Michal



JiminyJickers -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/3/2012 9:37:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

The path finding is something I am looking at for a pending update, yes.  There are some issues with how the underlying terrain is represented in the game which make narrow 'corridors', like roads lined with hedgerows or trees, a problem for the path finder.



That is good to hear. I'm waiting for this to be sorted before I'm willing to take the plunge.



Beag -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/3/2012 10:59:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blazej

Hi,

In my opinion, the offensive AI is as bad as ever. As soon as I started playing, I remembered why I found a human opponent the last time around - the AI is incapable of mounting an efficient attack, even with far superior firepower :)



If you think CC games have bad AI, I have three words for you:

Empire Total War [sm=dizzy.gif]



Southernland -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/4/2012 4:17:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JiminyJickers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

The path finding is something I am looking at for a pending update, yes.  There are some issues with how the underlying terrain is represented in the game which make narrow 'corridors', like roads lined with hedgerows or trees, a problem for the path finder.



That is good to hear. I'm waiting for this to be sorted before I'm willing to take the plunge.



Do it before the kiwi dollar drops[:D]



JiminyJickers -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/4/2012 8:55:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Southern_land
Do it before the kiwi dollar drops[:D]


Haha, you may be right.



oldbaldwargamer -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/4/2012 9:59:06 PM)

Hello,

I bought this as I played CC years and years ago.

I played the scenario GER. Played first as the Alies and had no problem taking victory points and scoring a minor victory. Played then as the Germans and figured the Allies would come at me at least a little bit like I had but they did not...I took mostly the same victory hexes without much opposition and won that with a major victory. It was a very boring scenario as the enemy didnt do much, especially as the allies, when I expected a lot more.

Is there a recomendation for a scenario(s) which will be a lot harder against the AI? I'm assuming where the AI will be on the defensive. I really need some decent opposition and that scenario was not really too exciting.

Thanks!



Reboot -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/4/2012 11:27:42 PM)

Some ways I create challenge against the ai:

Mission settings - ai as recruit player as elite, full realism, and battle ends when morale gets too low
Deployment - play my units as they are deployed by the computer, no taking cover and better positions before I hit Begin
Reduce my number of units



oldbaldwargamer -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/5/2012 6:46:58 AM)

Well, I played Hill 314 as the axis. Took out victory hexes with no problems. Made the Allies Elite and mine average. It was just a slow plodding boring game. Minor axis victory.

I remember playing CC and there were tense hard fought battles with lots of armor and men and really working on placements and having a fun time but sometimes a tough time of it. This seems totally different from what I remember....maybe I'd be better off buying one of the remakes of the older ones.....just not very fun yet.



Pvt_Grunt -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/5/2012 7:25:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldbaldwargamer

Well, I played Hill 314 as the axis. Took out victory hexes with no problems. Made the Allies Elite and mine average. It was just a slow plodding boring game. Minor axis victory.

If you are Germans you need to make Allies RECRUIT to give them more / better units. If you make them ELITE they get less units.
Also as Reboot says make yourself ELITE to have less units / higher difficulty.



oldbaldwargamer -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/5/2012 4:47:43 PM)

Oh OK...figured Elite would be easier against a recruit A.I....very odd.

I'll try again tonight! Thanks.



Reboot -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/5/2012 10:34:27 PM)

try the other stuff too and you'll get a fight

(bye the bye, how old is old? 61 here, organized wargaming since early 60's, and digital since CC2 came out)



oldbaldwargamer -> RE: Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it? (12/6/2012 5:05:06 PM)

Well...that worked...a lot more action.

One thing I dont like is when I have the victory conditions based on morale...I win the morale fight but it says the other side is a major or minor victor because they have more victory hexes....I won the darn morale condition, I should be the victor!

I'm not old..yet...but my body from gout and thyroid problems feels a lot older than I am...turning 50 in 3 months...body, turning 75 tomorrow!

Played board wargames in my teens and computer wargames since college...will never stop!



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