RE: Limit Theory (Full Version)

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion



Message

miklos -> RE: Limit Theory (9/4/2014 6:15:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I had a chat with a friend of mine that does muck about with cross-platform projects. My position is now one of glee. Much like the sense of excitement one gets in watching a slow-motion video of a traffic accident. I await with bated breath, Josh's final release!

No problems with complexity.
No problems with project size.
No problems with multiple platforms.

It's all clear sailing for LT to hit the store shelves. I think any developer can tell you what sort of horror stories Josh's sort of statements has preceded.

Anyone want to place bets on how this is going to turn out?


How's the humble pie tasting Kayoz? Or are you hoping people forget about this thread where you displayed a complete lack of social skills, general development knowledge and practical experience while calling people out for lack of information, you yourself won't share?

If you've read RPS or followed his daily development update and the monthly video progress you'd see that he has created something you couldn't do if you got 10 years to do it. So it's time you apologize but who are we kidding, you are the type of forum warrior who can't admit when he is wrong.

Status so far:
Kayoz: -1 points
JoshParnell: 9001 points



JoshParnell -> RE: Limit Theory (9/4/2014 2:52:37 PM)

Thanks for the support miklos :)

However I think this resurrection is a tad premature. The time has not yet come, as LT is not yet released. The updates and articles can negate much of Kayoz' negative speculation, but the ultimate proof - the fulfillment of that which I promised in the beginning - has yet to surface.

In time this story will come to a close in exactly the manner which I promised (albeit a year later than I would have liked). But until then we must wait patiently and gather our stash of anti-skeptic munitions ;)

PS ~ I enjoyed the subtle reference to DBZ :)



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Limit Theory (9/4/2014 3:46:43 PM)

I'd rather see Freelancer II myself. Best space sim ever made.



danlongman -> RE: Limit Theory (9/4/2014 4:10:30 PM)

I have been watching since my Kickstarter binge. If people weren't willing to push the limits
conceptually we would have no "good old days" to compare to. I am still playing at Freelancer
but I don't twitch as good as I used to. Different medication.



aaatoysandmore -> RE: Limit Theory (9/4/2014 6:15:26 PM)

I always thought Freelancer had the easiest control system of them all. Only thing bad about Freelancer is it had no dynamic trading world.....where things went up and down in price as supply and demand changed.



JoshParnell -> RE: Limit Theory (9/4/2014 7:29:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I'd rather see Freelancer II myself. Best space sim ever made.

...

I always thought Freelancer had the easiest control system of them all. Only thing bad about Freelancer is it had no dynamic trading world.....where things went up and down in price as supply and demand changed.


'Freelancer II' is more or less my goal for LT [:)] (with a bit of EVE thrown into the mix). FL is tied with Morrowind for my favorite game of all time [:D]

I completely second the sentiment that the game was uniquely 'playable' for a space sim - the controls were tremendously smooth and the game mechanics were fun but simple enough to be totally understandable. For me that's what makes it so easy to just pick back up and play when I need a good hit of space game euphoria. That playability, above all else, is something that I'm trying to bring to LT [:)]



Kayoz -> RE: Limit Theory (9/5/2014 6:32:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: miklos

How's the humble pie tasting Kayoz? Or are you hoping people forget about this thread where you displayed a complete lack of social skills, general development knowledge and practical experience while calling people out for lack of information, you yourself won't share?


There's a word in English. "Sarcasm". Look it up. You clearly didn't understand my post.

I've read his (Josh's) post and watched some of his ennui inspiring videos on his site. There isn't any "game" forming. It's overdue, nowhere near completion and his design flaws are forcing him to make changes to core functionality quite recently.

Release it, see how the reviewers react, and then we can discuss it. I mean, that's the promise Josh made - to release the game feature-complete. A promise made to all his Kickstarter backers which he's FAILED TO KEEP.



JoshParnell -> RE: Limit Theory (9/5/2014 10:48:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
There's a word in English. "Sarcasm". Look it up. You clearly didn't understand my post.

I've read his (Josh's) post and watched some of his ennui inspiring videos on his site. There isn't any "game" forming. It's overdue, nowhere near completion and his design flaws are forcing him to make changes to core functionality quite recently.

Release it, see how the reviewers react, and then we can discuss it. I mean, that's the promise Josh made - to release the game feature-complete. A promise made to all his Kickstarter backers which he's FAILED TO KEEP.


Unsurprising [8|]

If nothing else, I admire your unfailing confidence. Were it to be applied in a direction not entirely orthogonal to productivity - to encouraging the flow of life rather than impeding it - it could be a powerful ally [:)]



Kayoz -> RE: Limit Theory (9/7/2014 4:41:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Unsurprising [8|]

If nothing else, I admire your unfailing confidence. Were it to be applied in a direction not entirely orthogonal to productivity - to encouraging the flow of life rather than impeding it - it could be a powerful ally [:)]


I'm all for productivity. Failing to meet your ship date by a year (current estimate - which is rather questionable considering your past ability to meet your own targets), the real question is do you understand the meaning of productivity?

[image]http://www.insidearm.com/wp-content/uploads/wendy-wheresbeef1.jpg[/image]
LT is all bun and no beef.



JoshParnell -> RE: Limit Theory (9/7/2014 9:43:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

I'm all for productivity. Failing to meet your ship date by a year (current estimate - which is rather questionable considering your past ability to meet your own targets), the real question is do you understand the meaning of productivity?

LT is all bun and no beef.


Perhaps not, if you mean to imply that meeting a ship date is the only metric for productivity. It's true, under that definition I've utterly and unequivocally failed to be productive. If this is the one true way of productivity, then clearly I've little grasp on it.

I leave it to others to have a look at the current state of the graphics, UI, procedural content generators, and (most recently) the real-time scripting engine to decide whether I've managed to register a blip on their own personal productivity scanner [:)]

Personally, being a slightly-over-the-edge bread enthusiast, I'd take more bun any day (and twice on Sunday). But that's beside the point -- the boys in the kitchen tell me the meat is almost ready! [X(]



Lucian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/7/2014 10:16:58 AM)

While I wouldn't say that I'm in total agreement with Kayoz, I've certainly cooled off on Limit Theory over the last year or so. Josh's use of Starlanes / Spacelanes has really squashed any excitement I might have had about this project. Nothing kills immersion in a space game more than Roads-In-Space. That and some other questionable design decisions have altered my attitude from "Oh Boy!" to "Meh".

So while I'm still reasonably confident that he will eventually release a functional game, I'm equally confident that I wont be buying.



JoshParnell -> RE: Limit Theory (9/7/2014 10:43:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

While I wouldn't say that I'm in total agreement with Kayoz, I've certainly cooled off on Limit Theory over the last year or so. Josh's use of Starlanes / Spacelanes has really squashed any excitement I might have had about this project. Nothing kills immersion in a space game more than Roads-In-Space. That and some other questionable design decisions have altered my attitude from "Oh Boy!" to "Meh".

So while I'm still reasonably confident that he will eventually release a functional game, I'm equally confident that I wont be buying.


Well, all I would ask is to keep an open mind about it [:)]

I won't bother trying to dissuade you on the lanes issue, because I know how people feel about that kind of thing -- almost a bit of a religious issue to true space game fans. Personally I have a lot of reasons why it's critical to my own space sim experience to have lanes and 'structural' travel. I feel as strongly about it as you do about (I presume) point-to-point jump travel [:D]

However, the past two months' work introduced a level of moddability that previously wasn't planned for LT 1.0. The result is that I can now guarantee that someone who feels as you do can and will make a point-to-point jump travel mod for LT. Really, I guarantee -- because if they don't, I will (after 1.0). But I'm certain that someone will do it, since I know you're not at all the only one who feels this way. The scripting engine makes that kind of thing 100% within the realm of what LT mods will be able to do!

So just keep an eye on the project and keep in mind that, if you don't like all of my design decisions, most if not all of them will be addressed by community-built mods. I'm curious what other decisions you feel would prevent you from enjoying the game? But as I said, please know that the travel system is one of those decisions that is very much within the ability of mods to 'fix' [:)]



Lucian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/8/2014 8:37:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Well, all I would ask is to keep an open mind about it [:)]

I won't bother trying to dissuade you on the lanes issue, because I know how people feel about that kind of thing -- almost a bit of a religious issue to true space game fans. Personally I have a lot of reasons why it's critical to my own space sim experience to have lanes and 'structural' travel. I feel as strongly about it as you do about (I presume) point-to-point jump travel [:D]


I will keep an open mind, but I can pretty much assure you that I wont like it. As you probably guessed, I'm firmly in the If-I-Want-Roads-I'll-Play-Civ camp. A space game should feel like you are in space. I understand your reasoning though and realize that not all games will be suited to my particular taste. C'est la vie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
The result is that I can now guarantee that someone who feels as you do can and will make a point-to-point jump travel mod for LT.


That's very good news, with that in mind I think I'll wait and see if anyone implements Free-Jump or Star Trek - style continuous FTL before deciding. I'm actually quite surprised that such a seemingly large change can be handled by scripting. Will the AI be able to cope? Free Orion is another game that I have given up on because of mandatory starlanes. My understanding with FO is that even if you managed to mod the lanes out you would most certainly end up lobotomizing the AI in the process.

I didn't specify any other quibbles because they were not annoying or immersion breaking enough to prevent me from buying, I guess my biggest secondary issues though would be....

1/ 3rd person perspective: Immersion-wise I would much prefer a cockpit and 1st person perspective.

2/ Seamless planet landings: Elite Frontier had this and its amazing to me that even with 100x the speed and memory, no-one has since been able to even come close to matching it (although it looks like Elite 4 will :) ). I do realize that it would be quite coding intensive though which is almost certainly why you haven't chosen to implement it.

3/ Realism: My tastes fall into the Newtonian realism of the earlier elite games and Independence War, both in terms of the size of the solar system and the way spacecraft handle. What I have seen of LT so far is a little too arcadey.

As I said though, none of these are deal breakers and I do like many of your design decisions, particularly the extensive use of procedural generation to supply content. Whether I end up being a customer or not I wish you all the best with the game, you've certainly earned it with the amount of work you've put in.



Kayoz -> RE: Limit Theory (9/9/2014 3:47:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell

Perhaps not, if you mean to imply that meeting a ship date is the only metric for productivity. It's true, under that definition I've utterly and unequivocally failed to be productive. If this is the one true way of productivity, then clearly I've little grasp on it.


Your choice of word. If you want to give a pithy response to your own chosen word, then so be it. "Productivity" has a definition in the dictionary. Look it up. Development goals and meeting the aforementioned is a reasonable and quantifiable measure. Nuff said.

Your choice of words.
Your doubled (at least) dev time estimate.
Your mounting complexity of design issues which you should have addressed before writing a single line of code.
Your fundamental changes to design (eg: persistence of asteroid fields) at a rather late state in development.
Your problem.

Ship it and we'll see. But that's some vague and undetermined point in the future, isn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
I leave it to others to have a look at the current state of the graphics, UI, procedural content generators, and (most recently) the real-time scripting engine to decide whether I've managed to register a blip on their own personal productivity scanner [:)]


I look to testing, balance, economic engine, procedurally generated characters and interactions, etc, etc - to determine LT's state.

But let's not talk vague notions here - the fleet ownership, as a specific example, hasn't been touched on, much less the AI behind it - finite, fuzzy and probably swarm behaviour, which is a rather meaty task in itself. But of course, that's a doddle and you'll get it working, tested and debugged by.. when is it again? Oh, and let's not fail to mention the dynamic economy - you'll have that written in no time, right?

You've written a chunk of the graphics engine. Pat on the back for you. But any game developer will tell you that the graphics is the EASY part. And no more so than with sandbox games. Skyrim (a sandbox game) developers didn't sweat blood and tears on making pretty blood sprays or shiny baubles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Personally, being a slightly-over-the-edge bread enthusiast, I'd take more bun any day (and twice on Sunday). But that's beside the point -- the boys in the kitchen tell me the meat is almost ready! [X(]


Almost ready? So what's your current release schedule? I hate to bring this up, but your initial estimate was Q1 2014 - so any reader should take your past history in meeting your own goals into account.

Caveat emptor. But then again, you've already got (at least) $187,865....



zakblood -> RE: Limit Theory (9/11/2014 12:01:58 PM)

wish i could move this topic closer to the motohome, as it's cold outside and the heat in here could warm up me van :)

[:D]

looks nice all i can say, like elite i'll look forward to it whenever it arrives :)



Kayoz -> RE: Limit Theory (9/11/2014 4:13:23 PM)

No flaming from me. I believe I've asked fair questions and raised relevant points where he's failed to keep his promises.

Oh, if you think it looks like Elite - then I've got an old copy of Daikatana kicking around somewhere. The screenshots and videos released by Romero made it look pretty good. You buying?

But on that point, Elite looks WAY WAY WAY better than anything Josh has shown. That's the difference between a university drop-out hack and professionals.



undercovergeek -> RE: Limit Theory (9/11/2014 4:35:35 PM)

i searched youtube for a game youre releasing Kayoz

could

not

see

one

odd that



Kayoz -> RE: Limit Theory (9/11/2014 10:07:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i searched youtube for a game youre releasing Kayoz

could

not

see

one

odd that


How incredibly brilliant of you. You don't know what search parameters, so you conclude that your YouTube search - found nothing, is surprising.

Sharpest knife in the drawer, ain't ya? Are you equally shocked when you look in the mirror and see yourself?

Nothing I've said has been inconsistent with any number of other posts from game developers. By your argument, a doctor who says that sucking on the tailpipe of a car is good for you can only be countered by another doctor.

Just an unending font of wisdom, you are.



undercovergeek -> RE: Limit Theory (9/11/2014 11:49:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i searched youtube for a game youre releasing Kayoz

could

not

see

one

odd that


How incredibly brilliant of you. You don't know what search parameters, so you conclude that your YouTube search - found nothing, is surprising.

Sharpest knife in the drawer, ain't ya? Are you equally shocked when you look in the mirror and see yourself?

Nothing I've said has been inconsistent with any number of other posts from game developers. By your argument, a doctor who says that sucking on the tailpipe of a car is good for you can only be countered by another doctor.

Just an unending font of wisdom, you are.


my first choice was 'loud mouthed obnoxious c*nt' - i figured that would encompass all your finest qualities

please, send me the link to your game

you have 2 choices - produce it and let the community see your flawless effort

or dont - and STFU

Your doctor analogy is piss poor like the rest of your writing but if I have to come down to your level of comprehension then fine..... yes only educated, experienced, learned men get to counter each other's arguments in the field of their expertise... listen to a doctor or listen to a bitter hack with an axe to grind.... it's not hard, it is for you, but not the rest of us

i dont know what your problem with the developer is other than envy

guys making a game at 20 and is doing ok, were you not quite so successful with your big venture?



Kayoz -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 3:33:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
my first choice was 'loud mouthed obnoxious c*nt'


I assume that's in response to my mirror question. I can't say I'm surprised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
please, send me the link to your game


I don't have to be a cop to see that Michael Brown's death was a case of criminal abuse of authority - but according to you, only a cop can answer that question. I suggest you go to the black dominated neighbourhoods and voice your opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
yes only educated, experienced, learned men get to counter each other's arguments in the field of their expertise...


So, only a game developer can say that Daikatana is crap? You do realize that 99.999% of the game critics out there fail to meet your criteria... and shockingly enough, they're on my side of the expertise argument. Keep spouting profanities. You're sure to win this argument with foul language.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
i dont know what your problem with the developer is other than envy

What he's done so far is crap - from design to code, and unimpressive. He's failed to meet a single deadline that HE SET HIMSELF. I don't think I've been opaque at all with respect to my problems.

Oh, all funded with $186k of other people's money. Don't forget that. When he abandons the project, I wonder how many will sue him for fraud? Probably not many. Pretty small change in the scheme of things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
guys making a game at 20 and is doing ok

For a given value of "ok".

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
were you not quite so successful with your big venture?


Drop the ad hominem attacks. Your externalization of your own self-loathing and sexual confusion isn't helping your argument. I'm not interested in you. I don't want to tell you anything about me, thanks. I'm sure you can find a public toilet frequented by people who will be happy to service your needs.



danlongman -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 4:29:01 AM)

Some people bring out the worst in themselves. I am embarrassed for dropping in on this unseemly mess.
I personally would like to believe this product will be delivered at some point resembling it's promise.
If not then I may have an opinion to express. Until then I can just remark on some people's bad manners
and offensive attitude of momentous self importance. But that is just my opinion and nothing more.



zakblood -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 5:40:15 AM)

well it's 6am ish here, and i'm still warming my hands up on the heated debate above, motohoming is fun and i do love to go away on holiday, watching others fall out can be more so, but for me lifes to short, so i agree with everyone. then do as i like anyway, unless GF tells me different, and who am i to argue [:D]



Lucian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 6:09:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
When he abandons the project, I wonder how many will sue him for fraud? Probably not many.


You seriously still think he's going to abandon it? Doesn't seem very likely, after all this time and work, if he was going to jump ship he would have done so by now. No he'll end up releasing something eventually. In fact I cant really fault him for missing his deadlines, he certainly wouldn't be the first game dev to go over time, almost all of them do.

My worry is that LT seems to have morphed into an arcadey version of elite with space-lanes that I'm no longer very interested in playing. Pity, the original concept sounded so promising.... :(

Hopefully he's right about modding those bloody lanes out without completely killing the AI.



Aurelian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 8:15:58 AM)

I kind of like the idea of lanes. It worked in Imperium. It works for the Humans/Hivers/Zuul in SOTS. It works in the Honorverse, (Wormhole junctions and grav waves there.)



Lucian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 8:27:52 AM)

Well each to their own, but actually Hivers can teleport to any system with a gate so their "lanes" are not fixed roads that cant be changed. Or another way of looking at it is that every Hiver system has a starlane to every other Hiver system with a gate, not really a "road-in-space" issue. Same with the Zuul, they can bore their own lanes and are not restricted to set routes. But Humans? Yeah, pretty much explains why I never play as humans in SOTS.



Kayoz -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 4:48:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

You seriously still think he's going to abandon it? Doesn't seem very likely, after all this time and work, if he was going to jump ship he would have done so by now. No he'll end up releasing something eventually.


I haven't ruled that out as a possibility. It changes nothing - he's on track to deliver, as you describe it, an arcadey version of Elite. The core issue remains - his backers won't get what they were promised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

In fact I cant really fault him for missing his deadlines, he certainly wouldn't be the first game dev to go over time, almost all of them do.


Slipping isn't a major problem in itself. It's a sign that things are going dreadfully awry.

If he's happy to release a COMPLETELY UNTESTED game, then he MIGHT be a year late. Add in testing and feature complete, and he won't ship till at least 2018. Not without more resources, dropping features, or skimping on dev or testing.

It's the equivalent of a plumber working on your water heater and him saying he knows what the problem is and he'll be done by noon. And it's midnight and he's still banging away.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
My worry is that LT seems to have morphed into an arcadey version of elite with space-lanes that I'm no longer very interested in playing. Pity, the original concept sounded so promising.... :(


To be fair, his original vision was ridiculously ambitious. But that still doesn't change the core issue - it seems less and less likely each day, that he'll deliver what he promised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Hopefully he's right about modding those bloody lanes out without completely killing the AI.


Did he actually write that? Did he actually write that the proposed mod wouldn't kill the AI? Or did he write that it could be done - with no reference to the knock-on effects?

If it's such a doddle to do and it was in his original vision, and he acknowledges that players want it - then ask yourself why he's not putting it into the release. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.



Zap -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 5:53:15 PM)

I'm not interested in this game. But I really don't see the big deal about the date of arrival. In comparison Matrix has a game in its stall waiting to be released(new game area). Must be at least 6 years r more. The key here is for the creator of the game to remain silent. that seems to work. Then everyone will forget. Then when he's ready offer his game.



Lucian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 6:37:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

The core issue remains - his backers won't get what they were promised.


I don’t think he really made such exacting promises in the beginning, its just the way the fine details of the game have evolved over time. I didn’t even know about the starlanes until about 6 months ago. So while I can say with 90% certainty that I don’t like the direction the game has taken, I really cant speak for his backers. For all I know 99% of them are completely ecstatic about arcadey gameplay and starlanes. In fact if they aren’t then Josh has a serious problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

If he's happy to release a COMPLETELY UNTESTED game, then he MIGHT be a year late. Add in testing and feature complete, and he won't ship till at least 2018. Not without more resources, dropping features, or skimping on dev or testing.


Agreed, that seems like a much more likely scenario although a late release is infinitely preferable to no release.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Did he actually write that? Did he actually write that the proposed mod wouldn't kill the AI? Or did he write that it could be done - with no reference to the knock-on effects?


No that’s poor wording on my part. He said that starlanes could be modded out of the game relatively easily by scripting. He didn’t mention the effect it would have on other game systems......like AI. I did a follow-up post asking him to clarify but he hasn’t yet responded.

My feeling is that such a radical change would almost certainly have catastrophic effects on the AI – at the very least - and probably many other game systems as well. I would be absolutely astounded if it didn’t. With that in mind I don’t see much point in modding out starlanes if all you’ll end up with is a lobotomised game.

While I’m personally disappointed at the direction the game has taken, Josh obviously has very strong and clear ideas about his design and (hopefully) its audience. They just don’t happen to coincide with gameplay that I find particularly immersive and enjoyable.

Luckily I didn’t back him, if I had then my language and attitude would probably have been slightly more emotional but I can certainly sympathize with any backers who share my concerns. I’ve really lost nothing more than a few hopes and little reading time. I can console myself with the fact that Elite Dangerous is looking very nice (no starlanes, seamless planet landings) and will most likely make me forget that LT ever existed.

Edit: (rather than double posting.....)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap
I'm not interested in this game. But I really don't see the big deal about the date of arrival. In comparison Matrix has a game in its stall waiting to be released(new game area). Must be at least 6 years r more. The key here is for the creator of the game to remain silent. that seems to work. Then everyone will forget. Then when he's ready offer his game.


I agree, games released on time are the exception rather than the rule. Its not a big deal. I like the fact that he's willing to talk to the public though, a very unusual and admirable attitude in a game dev. Even if I don't like his current game, I'm much more likely to pay attention to him in the future because of his willingness to interact and address my concerns - even if he doesn't agree with them.



Aurelian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 9:23:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

Well each to their own, but actually Hivers can teleport to any system with a gate so their "lanes" are not fixed roads that cant be changed. Or another way of looking at it is that every Hiver system has a starlane to every other Hiver system with a gate, not really a "road-in-space" issue. Same with the Zuul, they can bore their own lanes and are not restricted to set routes. But Humans? Yeah, pretty much explains why I never play as humans in SOTS.


Even if they bore or gate their own lanes, they still have to follow said lanes. And since the gates can be destroyed......



Aurelian -> RE: Limit Theory (9/12/2014 9:25:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

I'm not interested in this game. But I really don't see the big deal about the date of arrival. In comparison Matrix has a game in its stall waiting to be released(new game area). Must be at least 6 years r more. The key here is for the creator of the game to remain silent. that seems to work. Then everyone will forget. Then when he's ready offer his game.


World in Flames took how long again?? (Note, I agree with you.)



Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.59375