Turn off production for section? Toggle? (Full Version)

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jzardos -> Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 5:26:29 AM)

I'm in the industry section and would like to turn off my 'Light Factory' production. I see a button to 'turn off production' on the bottom of the page, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything from what I can tell. Unlike the 'turn off repairs' button which does toggle the repair column. What am I missing and is this how I would shut down all light factories?

Very bizarre and not too keen on what is going on, but Light Industry has a '-' in the Prod column and thus can't toggle it? Really? Why not? I can understand why some of the others can't be toggled like Manpower, Oil, etc. But should be able to turn on/off Light Industry at a location as can be done for Heavy Industry?

[:(] [&:]



n01487477 -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 6:30:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

I'm in the industry section and would like to turn off my 'Light Factory' production. I see a button to 'turn off production' on the bottom of the page, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything from what I can tell. Unlike the 'turn off repairs' button which does toggle the repair column. What am I missing and is this how I would shut down all light factories?

Since the last comprehensive patch, Light Ind. no longer can be turned off.
quote:


Very bizarre and not too keen on what is going on, but Light Industry has a '-' in the Prod column and thus can't toggle it? Really? Why not? I can understand why some of the others can't be toggled like Manpower, Oil, etc. But should be able to turn on/off Light Industry at a location as can be done for Heavy Industry?

[:(] [&:]

Was thought to be necessary to keep it going, I agree with the decision as did many others at the time.



jzardos -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 7:03:51 AM)

quote:

Was thought to be necessary to keep it going, I agree with the decision as did many others at the time.


Was thought to be necessary? Why? Light Industry is sucking the life out of Japan in my game, because need those resources for HI. Have plenty of supply already. If you can toggle other types of production then why not LI? Will be part of my downfall as Japan because I can't adjust my LI. Sorry, but that is ridiculous and from this scale of game borderline unacceptable. Very disappoint in those that made this decision not to allow any control of LI.

[:(]



n01487477 -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 7:30:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

quote:

Was thought to be necessary to keep it going, I agree with the decision as did many others at the time.


Was thought to be necessary? Why? Light Industry is sucking the life out of Japan in my game, because need those resources for HI. Have plenty of supply already. If you can toggle other types of production then why not LI? Will be part of my downfall as Japan because I can't adjust my LI. Sorry, but that is ridiculous and from this scale of game borderline unacceptable. Very disappoint in those that made this decision not to allow any control of LI.

[:(]

It was taken away after the 1st major patch iirc.

I hope if you think about it more you will realise that it was taken away to stop the unacceptable situation whereby players could (do as you propose)turn off LI and thus not use as much shipping, fuel etc as they should. Sure, it may be a nice cushion to have, turning LI on and off, to conserve resources but LI is a representation of small scale industry (supply production), which to my mind would never be turned off IRL unless shortages halted production. Furthermore, as Downfall approaches, this imposed decision by the devs better simulates the shortages Japan faced.

If LI is sucking the life out of your resource stockpiles, then you are not hauling enough. This is not a fault of the game, but rather your logistical TF mismanagement. There are plenty of resources close enough to keep Japan stocked with Resources. Go back and sort out the TF's (using Tracker or eyeball101) and you'll have no problem.

I am ever willing to tutor people on how to maintain a good economy ... email me your file and I'll have a look, read my 101Doc(link below) or post us some Tracker screenies and we'll all help you get it right.

Maybe being a little strong in my assessment; but complaining about the game when you can't get the logistics right is not the way to approach this.

BTW - I had nothing to do with the decision. It was made much higher up.

Cheers



jmalter -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 8:12:22 AM)

don't get too exercised about it, jz. you've got to keep your 'civilian' economy going, too! think of LI as including things like paper & cloth & soap that just can't be eliminated - your combat units need that stuff, too.

if you're good w/ supply stockpiles, you can toggle down your HI to the point where it's ticking at a rate that corresponds to your needs.

the point of playing the IJ side is, you've got to go out and capture add'l resource/oil/refinery centers as quickly & efficiently as possible, spend supply wisely to repair any damage to them, & organize your shipping (and its air/sea protection) to move the fruits/spoils of victory to where it's needed while simultaneously distributing your existing combat forces for defense AND planning/building new land/sea/air units.

it's kind of a given that the IJ will never have enough industrial capacity to build everything, the IJ player must work hard every turn to provide resources, refine, optimize & upgrade his production. meanwhile the Allied player need only wait around for mounds of commodities to accumulate for shipment, while new combat units and transport shipping appear 'like magic' at no cost, except for the PPs expended to upgrade leaders & buy units out of restricted HQ's.

imo playing the IJ side in this game is at least twice as difficult as the Allied side, mebbe more. so kudos to those who choose to try it on!



jzardos -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 9:41:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

quote:

Was thought to be necessary to keep it going, I agree with the decision as did many others at the time.


Was thought to be necessary? Why? Light Industry is sucking the life out of Japan in my game, because need those resources for HI. Have plenty of supply already. If you can toggle other types of production then why not LI? Will be part of my downfall as Japan because I can't adjust my LI. Sorry, but that is ridiculous and from this scale of game borderline unacceptable. Very disappoint in those that made this decision not to allow any control of LI.

[:(]

It was taken away after the 1st major patch iirc.

I hope if you think about it more you will realise that it was taken away to stop the unacceptable situation whereby players could (do as you propose)turn off LI and thus not use as much shipping, fuel etc as they should. Sure, it may be a nice cushion to have, turning LI on and off, to conserve resources but LI is a representation of small scale industry (supply production), which to my mind would never be turned off IRL unless shortages halted production. Furthermore, as Downfall approaches, this imposed decision by the devs better simulates the shortages Japan faced.

If LI is sucking the life out of your resource stockpiles, then you are not hauling enough. This is not a fault of the game, but rather your logistical TF mismanagement. There are plenty of resources close enough to keep Japan stocked with Resources. Go back and sort out the TF's (using Tracker or eyeball101) and you'll have no problem.

I am ever willing to tutor people on how to maintain a good economy ... email me your file and I'll have a look, read my 101Doc(link below) or post us some Tracker screenies and we'll all help you get it right.

Maybe being a little strong in my assessment; but complaining about the game when you can't get the logistics right is not the way to approach this.

BTW - I had nothing to do with the decision. It was made much higher up.

Cheers



I don't think you understand the big picture about this as a game and the control the Japanese player should have when making choices about their economy. Why should I be forced to make supplies when I already have plenty of them? Thus, not allowing the resources I need for other areas of my war effort? No logic in that, thus this makes no sense, so please convince me that their is any sanity in the argument to FORCE the Japanese player to have no control over their industry (in this case light) when it matters.

Good luck with that, because the game (with patches .. reason I finally bought it) already has set the precedence which allows the Japanese to adjust their production in many areas as needed, then why hamstring them with the silly restriction on LI. Because there's nothing about the Japanese people or economy that says they were not in a total war status (unlike Germany until late in the war). Thus, making less supplies (consumer goods too?) should be something the player has control over. Is this not a game? Should it not be flexible with this concept? I've yet to hear or seen anything remotely reasonable to convince me otherwise.



n01487477 -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 10:18:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

quote:

Was thought to be necessary to keep it going, I agree with the decision as did many others at the time.


Was thought to be necessary? Why? Light Industry is sucking the life out of Japan in my game, because need those resources for HI. Have plenty of supply already. If you can toggle other types of production then why not LI? Will be part of my downfall as Japan because I can't adjust my LI. Sorry, but that is ridiculous and from this scale of game borderline unacceptable. Very disappoint in those that made this decision not to allow any control of LI.

[:(]

It was taken away after the 1st major patch iirc.

I hope if you think about it more you will realise that it was taken away to stop the unacceptable situation whereby players could (do as you propose)turn off LI and thus not use as much shipping, fuel etc as they should. Sure, it may be a nice cushion to have, turning LI on and off, to conserve resources but LI is a representation of small scale industry (supply production), which to my mind would never be turned off IRL unless shortages halted production. Furthermore, as Downfall approaches, this imposed decision by the devs better simulates the shortages Japan faced.

If LI is sucking the life out of your resource stockpiles, then you are not hauling enough. This is not a fault of the game, but rather your logistical TF mismanagement. There are plenty of resources close enough to keep Japan stocked with Resources. Go back and sort out the TF's (using Tracker or eyeball101) and you'll have no problem.

I am ever willing to tutor people on how to maintain a good economy ... email me your file and I'll have a look, read my 101Doc(link below) or post us some Tracker screenies and we'll all help you get it right.

Maybe being a little strong in my assessment; but complaining about the game when you can't get the logistics right is not the way to approach this.

BTW - I had nothing to do with the decision. It was made much higher up.

Cheers

I don't think you understand the big picture about this as a game and the control players should have when making choices about their economy.

Now that is a laugh out loud moment... thanks [:D]
quote:


Why should I be forced to make supplies when I already have plenty of them? Thus, not allowing the resources I need for other areas of my war effort? This makes no sense, so please convince that their is any logic in the argument to FORCE the Japanese player to have no control over the industry (in this case light)?

And this is where we can agree to disagree; as it was done as a gaming decision for the reasons I've already mentioned. As well as others that were discussed way back when it was changed (but can't find the thread).
quote:

Good luck with that, because if you are already setting the precedence that the game is allows the Japanese to adjust their resources as needed, then why hamstring them with the silly restriction on LI.

I'm unsure what you are trying to say here. The Japanese import resources to the Home Islands - what precedent are you talking about?
quote:

Because there's nothing about the Japanese people or economy that says they were not in a total war status (unlike Germany until late in the war). Thus, making less supplies (consumer goods too?) should be something the player has control over. Is this not a game? Should it not be flexible with this concept? I've yet to hear or seen anything remotely reasonable to convince me otherwise.

I will quote back to you a thought ...if you understand the big picture about this as a game and the control players should know when running their economy efficiently, then at least I'd think that you had aired an argument from experience rather than lack of understanding the economy. (See I can throw barbs too) Furthermore, if you have played the game through to its end and seen the "big picture" as a game - then maybe you would see some of the points I made regarding the economy, fuel use, shipping, and late war collapse.

And, you're right it is a game and it has rules and restrictions. This is one of them.

No point arguing with me or getting steamed - it is a mute point but if you want to canvas MichaelM, DonBowen, JWE, J.Wilkerson etc ... maybe they will change it back.

O.T - Believe me, when I say the economy in stock is too easy and having a million points accrued in '44 is ridiculous though...(yes this is another discussion)

Cheers
[edited for formatting]



PaxMondo -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 11:44:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477
you understand the big picture about this as a game and the control players should know when running their economy efficiently, then at least I'd think that you had aired an argument from experience rather than lack of understanding the economy. ... Furthermore, if you have played the game through to its end and seen the "big picture" as a game - then maybe you would see some of the points I made regarding the economy, fuel use, shipping, and late war collapse.


+1



Alfred -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 12:30:05 PM)

There are many threads which newbies should read to get on top of the design concepts which underpin this game. This is a game in the sense that it has far too much abstraction to qualify as a simulation. Nonetheless it is a game very much shaped by the real factors and considerations which impinged upon operations in the PTO. Newbies who cannot cope with the relatively light restraints imposed by the game engine/scenario designer upon their operations, compared to the real restraints which the IRL leaders operated under, have one of two options:

Option A - go into the editor and change the parameters, or
Option B - find another game to play

One thread I would particularly recommend, because it canvases so much regarding game design from a logistics perspective, is the following thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2732392&mpage=1&key=light%2Cindustry

Reading this thread in its entirety, paying particular attention to all the posts made by devs such as JWE, Andrew Brown, Don Bowen, Blackhorse will greatly assist newbies from not exposing too readily their ignorance and arrogance. In particular the following posts are essential reading for newbies:

#51 - JWE
#55 - JWE
#87 - JWE
#89 - JWE
#104 - Andrew Brown
#108 - Andrew Brown
#120 - Blackhorse
#151 - JWE
#162 - JWE
#169 - JWE
#209 - Don Bowen

It is already a huge concession made to game playability to allow Japan to control its industrial output. Allowing Light Industry to be turned off in the Home Islands would just be going too far against one of the fundamental premises of this game. Which premise, for those newbies who may not have grasped it yet, is that:

IRL Japanese industry gradually ground down as it failed to keep up with importing the necessary raw materials, and
IRL the Japanese military's effectiveness as a combat force degraded as the necessary exports from the Home Islands declined

Another extremely relevant thread I highly recommend to newbies to read is the "merchant shipping" thread opened by JWE.

Alfred



Oldguard1970 -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/2/2012 11:21:13 PM)

Hello Jzardos,

Imagine how the game would be changed if the Japanese player could minimize his logistics problems by turning off LI. Suddenly, the need to capture and hold certain areas and the need to transport items would be greatly diminished. The whole character of the game would be very different, and it would not reflect some of the historical issues the Japanese faced.

The developers and the heroes who have been involved in adding all sorts of adjustments to this great game have been facing a constant concern to add more fun and control to the game without creating some sort of a "game-breaker".

One can debate just how much of a "game-breaker" it would be if Japan could avoid its logistical problems. I'm on the side that says it would be an unhappy change.



jzardos -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/3/2012 1:58:36 AM)

Sorry, I've read all the comments and still don't buy into this concept of allowing Japan to control HI and many other production areas but not LI. If I need supplies which at some point in the game I might, but at this point I need other areas of production, I will have to turn LI back on for some factory sites. At a minimum make it a setting in game or make the Japanese player have to pay PP to turn on/off LI production. For those that want to attack my play of the game, I think that's a poor way to deflect having LI factories shut down if desired. If others don't want to use that feature, then don't.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/3/2012 2:39:34 AM)

You seem to be pretty new to the game and might not have been around for the discussion underlying many of the changes and adjustments made over time. Alfred is our local game historian and probably knows the rules and the reasons for them better than any player-level player. Damian is one of the developers of Tracker, and has an NDA and more visibility into the code than any normal player. He is a master of the Japanese economy.

IOW, you have come into a bar and picked a fight with two gunslingers. You might stop digging the hole you find yourself in. This forum, unlike many on the Net, is a nice place where a good argument will get a hearing. There's no need to be aggressive. Just know what you're talking about and be civil and you'll be listened to. In this thread that already happened in fact.



Puhis -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/3/2012 6:37:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

Sorry, I've read all the comments and still don't buy into this concept of allowing Japan to control HI and many other production areas but not LI.


Turning "off" bakery, workshop, textile mill or rice field is not going to make you more steel or aluminium. That's why it's not possible to turn off LI. Light industry is civilian economy, producing all kind of small things that are "supply" in this game.

IMO it's a very good feature.



PaxMondo -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/4/2012 1:58:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


Turning "off" bakery, workshop, textile mill or rice field is not going to make you more steel or aluminium. That's why it's not possible to turn off LI. Light industry is civilian economy, producing all kind of small things that are "supply" in this game.

IMO it's a very good feature.

+1



n01487477 -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/4/2012 3:38:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

... For those that want to attack my play of the game, I think that's a poor way to deflect having LI factories shut down if desired. ...

I'm sorry if you feel I've been attacking your style of play. You broached the whole subject with the words " Light Industry is sucking the life out of Japan in my game, because need those resources for HI." ... I therefore suggested that if you organised your war efforts differently, then this would no longer be an issue. This has nothing to do with the central argument of why LI should remain ON. That has been outlined well enough here, and with links to developers posts.

So, as I no longer want to repeat those strong arguments ad nauseam, I'll move along and hope I can be of further assistance to you if you so require in the future.

Regards,



Ldeathbow -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/4/2012 4:34:12 AM)

I don't want to start the arguement over, but I do agree that Japan SHOULD be allowed to control LI.

This "Industrial Giant" (known as America), had to tell it's citizens that they couldn't have unlimited supplies (rationing Gas, Meat, Dairy, Copper (steel penny of 1943)) and even went so far as to PAY for recycled products (listen to Sirius/XM 82 (Old Time Radio) and you will hear all sorts of messages about wartime shortages/recycling programs - most striking was (IIRC) $0.03/LB for used cooking fat (solids....used to make explosives)).

Why can't a "godlike" (omniscient) ruler of Japan foresee the need for Steel, not for bread???? Instead of the "feast or famine" approach that is now in effect (and might have been true IRL), a wise leader could SLOWLY drop supply (get them used to 95% of normal, then drop to 95% of that, then drop ......), while stockpiling against the day when his ability to import fails.

To Puhis and Paxmondo, I say - no there might not be a direct correlation of LI to HI, but........if I shut down LI (by drafting the farm hand into the army), then the farmer will produce less grain, this will mean less supply to be ground at the local mill - allowing men and/or energy to be transfered to the production line - less wheat flour means the baker has less to bake (and maybe doesn't need his helpers), again, allowing for more energy and resources to be turned towards making planes, ships and other war material. Even IF you insist that each resource point represents a particular resource (which would make the game an even less managable beast), you still have the issue that....I need bakers to make fresh bread for the soldiers, I'm drafting your city baker.....the housewife will have to do her own baking (when she can get the ingredients) -- a DIRECT reduction of LI FOR the war effort.



Puhis -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/4/2012 6:58:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ldeathbow

To Puhis and Paxmondo, I say - no there might not be a direct correlation of LI to HI, but........if I shut down LI (by drafting the farm hand into the army), then the farmer will produce less grain, this will mean less supply to be ground at the local mill - allowing men and/or energy to be transfered to the production line - less wheat flour means the baker has less to bake (and maybe doesn't need his helpers), again, allowing for more energy and resources to be turned towards making planes, ships and other war material. Even IF you insist that each resource point represents a particular resource (which would make the game an even less managable beast), you still have the issue that....I need bakers to make fresh bread for the soldiers, I'm drafting your city baker.....the housewife will have to do her own baking (when she can get the ingredients) -- a DIRECT reduction of LI FOR the war effort.


You are talking about manpower, and that is already a different "resource" in this game.

LI is always ON because it's WAD. In early versions it was totally stupid and ahistorical that Japan could save lot of resources just shutting dpwn LI.

If you are running out of resources, you need to manage you economy better, not blame the game.



PaxMondo -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/4/2012 12:35:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ldeathbow

housewife will have to do her own baking (when she can get the ingredients)

And still consuming the resources. You cannot turn off LI. The bread gets baked <period>. It only does not get baked when there are no resources. You said it, you just didn't realize it. Thank you for ending this discussion.

New players can moon about this till the cows come home, but it ain't changing. It creates way too big of an exploit for the IJ and that is the fact. This was discussed and decided years ago. There is no new evidence or data to present. None of the dev team will support a change to this. Don should close this thread as it ain't going anywhere.



Ldeathbow -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/4/2012 8:57:16 PM)

it really annoys me when people only read 1/2 the message and justify their argument using incomplete examples

housewife will have to do her own baking (when she can get the ingredients) [/quote]
And still consuming the resources. You cannot turn off LI. The bread gets baked <period>. It only does not get baked when there are no resources. You said it, you just didn't realize it. Thank you for ending this discussion.

I see you chose to overlook the caveat "WHEN SHE CAN GET THE INGREDIENTS" (ie. no resources). U.S. rationing of consumables (see my first post in topic) prevented my Grandmother from baking as often as she would have liked, but, according to you and the design team IF I were of Japanese decent, she could have made all the cookies/bread/cake.....whatever my mother (and her siblings) wanted.

As to my baker example being "manpower" and a different "resource" handled seperately.....Puhis ignored my mention of the ENERGY saved. POW's can be "drafted" for the heavy labor and the displaced workers (manpower) go to work on the factory floor making Mitsubishi engines (using the ENERGY saved from closing their previous job to keep the facotry open longer hours) and their manpower to make a HI point ) maybe 2 LI to 1 HI....the exact ratio will change and doesn't matter - I'm saying it CAN be done. (Domino effect can change the nature of that resource point from edible to non-edible too - by taking the farm hand and putting him in a mine....he's stilll digging, just digging UP rocks instead of digging a hole to bury seed - and generating HARDWARE resource, not food.)

and as to the claim it is ahistorical.......It's "historical" that Japan does NOT bomb Pearl Harbor?!?, It's "historical" that Japan does NOT try to take Midway in 1942?!?, It's "historical" that the US launches a physical invasion of Japan proper rather than using Nukes?!? and you're telling me that it is (AND MUST BE) HISTORICAL that the Japanese had all the luxuries they wanted while the US rationed?!? The game is full of "ahistorical" events...why should Japan production be any different?!?! IF you insist on Japan LI being "historical" then make ALL JAPANESE economy historical and get rid of the options to change ANYTHING. If I can change how/when/where what is made (produce ships at excelerated rates, change aircraft factories) then I should be able to tell the public that I need Copper for shells so...they can't have as many windchimes this year.

I'm not saying 100% shutdown, but I think 0% is overkill - maybe 75% of all LI MUST continue or the people revolt (and the computer resets to higher value for a number of turns as an "anarchy penalty" "workers walk off jobs to tend fields to feed families"). Clearly the Dec. 6 1942 LI level should NOT!!! be taken as WARTIME production level, yet that is exactly what's being done - and I can't think of one HISTORICAL example of a country that went to war (at least not a protracted war) without it's citizens enduring SOME degree of hardship. The only real question is "do you drive off a cliff or try to drive down a steep mountainside?", but the developers have made the call - Japan WILL try to drive off a cliff...everytime (Maybe they can get a win on points before their economy crashes because of the selfish nature of it's citizens). I understand the desire to develop a sense of urgency in acquiring resources to feed the LI beast (and the rest of the economy), but if I've got $100 in my back pocket and no job - I'm going to quit drinking $5 a cup coffee until I can get an income (it's known as CONSERVATION - used in conjunction with aquisition, it makes it much more likely you will succede)

Of course, this brings up another issue....in a society that was willing to commit suicide for their leader (believed to be) of devine decent, would they not willing forego luxuries once the emperor said it was required?



Alfred -> RE: Turn off production for section? Toggle? (12/4/2012 10:01:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ldeathbow

it really annoys me when people only read 1/2 the message and justify their argument using incomplete examples ...



Me too. I go to a lot of effort to not just paraphrase dev comments but to also provide their original source comments so that everyone can see the full context. That is what I did in post #9. Unfortunately, and not for the first time, people continue to post their own opinions without bothering to read fully and comprehending what I provide.

You should be wary of just taking completely at face value what others present as being game design decisions if they do not also provide the source material. Or at least have a track record of regularly so providing material from the "horse's mouth".

Light Industry does not represent what you and others claim it solely does. If you and others had read the thread I provided and in particular the listed dev posts, you would see that you and others have created a straw man arguement which does not apply to this game.

Anyone who wants to justify their view that it should be possible to turn off Japanese Light Industry needs to directly refute the game design principles presented by the devs in the thread I provided. To not do so means they are not putting forth an arguement but merely are propagating a polemic.

Demonstrate to the devs that there is a better way to implement the fundamental game design principles, or at least why a proposed game change will not impact adversely on the fundamental game design principles, and the devs will consider it. Propagate a polemic which completely sidesteps the fundamental game design principles, and the devs, quite rightly in my opinion, will just view the offered opinion as hot air with no relevance to this game.

Alfred



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