Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (Full Version)

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Harrybanana -> Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/13/2012 11:47:32 PM)

In my AAR game against Saper he, as the Germans, has been bombing my industry; in particular my T34 factories in Stalingrad and Gorky. He has been bombing at night and my AA and fighters have been almost completely ineffective in shooting down any of his bombers. However, his bombers have been, in my opinion, very effective in crippling my T34 production.

I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this and, if so, do you believe the strategic bombing model in WITE is realistic or, like me, do you think it is too effective?



Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/13/2012 11:58:42 PM)

Btw, still haven't got anything from. You sent you an email some days ago.

As for the original question, in all my tests I don't see it being too strong.



Harrybanana -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 6:27:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Btw, still haven't got anything from. You sent you an email some days ago.

As for the original question, in all my tests I don't see it being too strong.


Not sure what you mean when you say "you sent you an email". Do you mean you sent me an email? If so I never got it. Did you pm me or send an email to my email address of bob-basement@telus.net? But I did PM you a couple days ago and never got a response. I also emailed you with an attached save at mailto:2by3@2by3games.com as suggested by gingerbread. Are you saying you didn't receive either my PM or my email?

In any event where should I email the saved game too?



Apollo11 -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 7:46:00 AM)

Hi all,

Problematic/possible WitE issues should be send to Joel:

2by3@2by3games.com

or/and also posted at:

Tech subforum (it allows larger ZIP sized files)!


Leo "Apollo11"




Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 9:19:33 AM)

quote:

Not sure what you mean when you say "you sent you an email". Do you mean you sent me an email? If so I never got it. Did you pm me or send an email to my email address of bob-basement@telus.net? But I did PM you a couple days ago and never got a response. I also emailed you with an attached save at mailto:2by3@2by3games.com as suggested by gingerbread. Are you saying you didn't receive either my PM or my email?

In any event where should I email the saved game too?


I've made a reply to the email you sent me via Matrix Forums, which was @telus.net but has different name. Probably the one you registered back then.

As Leo says you may send it to 2by3@2by3games.com. If you did it already I'll ask if there was some. Thanks.



Flaviusx -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 1:44:02 PM)

Simple solution: just get rid of it. Strategic bombing shouldn't even exist in this game. None of the air forces in question had the chops for it. I'm not sure what we are getting from putting it in the game and then putting in enough rules to make it worthless. Cut to the chase here guys.

I suppose eventually we will have to worry about what the Luftwaffe can do in the Battle for Britain, but that's years away. For all practical purposes strategic bombing = USAAF and RAF bomber command. Nobody else need apply, not even in WITW. (How the v weapons are handled in WITW is another matter.)







Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 2:59:45 PM)

That is not true.



Flaviusx -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 4:11:41 PM)

But it is.




Denniss -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 4:24:18 PM)

Both sides used strat bombing but not in a large scale. SOV attacks were more morale-boosting attacks on Berlin than real attacks.
Luftwaffe bombed Moscow and some other cities, targetting production (or at least railyards).

I can't really comment on the effectiveness of night bombing though.



Ketza -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 4:34:46 PM)

I know daytime strat bombing is an exercise in frustration. Although you can a few hits in the effort to do it usually the payoff is not worth the effort.



Chaplain Lovejoy -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 4:45:19 PM)

From the dusty archives of my memory, I recall reading somewhere years ago that some German planners put a lot of thought in trying to identify where they could get the most bang for the buck on strategic bombing of Soviet targets. Their conclusion: bomb the electrical grid. But it never happened. But memories (especially mine) are fallible!



carlkay58 -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 7:19:09 PM)

This game needs strategic bombing in it because one of the main reasons to take the Crimea was to keep the Soviets from bombing Ploesti and possibly damaging the oil fields there.



Flaviusx -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 7:49:49 PM)

The Red Air Force would've been shot to pieces if it tried to do this. Heck, the USAAF raid on Ploesti was pretty ugly.

Both the Red Air Force and Luftwaffe were first and foremost tactical air forces. Strategic bombing in WW2 was hard, expensive, and technologically challenging. It took years and massive effort by both the British and the USA to make it work at all. Neither the Germans nor Soviets could afford such a commitment.




carlkay58 -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 8:06:55 PM)

I agree with you Flav but the possibility exists and Ploesti is a very weak point for the Axis.



Harrybanana -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 9:51:40 PM)

I informed Saper in an email that I thought his strategic bombing of Stalingrad and Gorky was way more effective than it should be. His response was as follows:

"Hi!
You not good protect industry in Stalingrad and Gorky (but best digin!!!!). Only one airbase and no attached PVO AA regiment on city. I send more than 400 level bomber to Gorky, bombing low 50% and damage only 20% factory. If be low effective, why this mode need?"

I'm not sure I fully understand what he is trying to tell me; so if anyone else does please translate. But is he correct that if I built/assigned PVO AA regiments to Stalingrad and Gorky it would "protect the industry" I assume by either shooting down bombers or making them less effective? I did not do so for two reasons:

1. On most of his bombing runs lots of AA were showing as defenders (even though not in the city) but they were not having any effect, and

2. When you attach/build a PVO AA Regiment it takes forever to build up to strength. Part of the problem might be that they start with 76mm AA guns even though these were obsolete in January 41 so none are being built and I have none in the pool. Is there a reason for this?

With respect to moving more airbases back to defend the Cities I again thought what was the point. I have 152 fighters "protecting" Stalingrad on that one base and they are doing next to no good. So what is the point in using more. But again, if anyone else thinks this will help let me know and I'll move more fighters back to protect the city.

Below is a screen shot of one of the bombing runs on Gorky this last turn (T17). As you can see my 11 fighters (all LAGGs) and AA didn't shoot down a single one of his night bombers. If any one has any suggestions please tell me.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/D2D5023A4BA347C08A1382D2BF2FBE9A.jpg[/image]



Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 10:15:03 PM)

quote:

But it is.


No



Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/14/2012 10:21:24 PM)

quote:

I'm not sure I fully understand what he is trying to tell me; so if anyone else does please translate.


He is trying to say that it is not that effective how you are trying to present it. In fact all my tests show the same.

I'll take a look a the save you sent me, but so far I see no way as it being an exploit. All Soviet industry was made accounting German bombing, which was historically not so insignificant. They managed to shutdown some of the factories up so several months. Whole industry types (like rubber production in Yaroslavl) was shut down causing huge problems with whole range of equipment, including T-34 production in Stalingrad.

Also small industries cause more damage then the big ones. 30% damage to 11x T-34 is very small in fact.

Again, I need to see 6x Romanian LB causing double digit damage.



Flaviusx -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 12:55:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

But it is.


No


Yes.

(I love these monosyllabic exchanges, Pavel.)



Harrybanana -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 1:20:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

I'm not sure I fully understand what he is trying to tell me; so if anyone else does please translate.


He is trying to say that it is not that effective how you are trying to present it. In fact all my tests show the same.


Well I understood that part, that he was saying my response was not good. The part I didn't understand is what he meant when he said: "bombing low 50% and damage only 20% factory. If be low effective, why this mode need?"

But my question is what should I be doing to make an effective response? Building more PVO AA Regiments? Will they be effective against night bombing when they build so slowly using obsolete (76mm AA) equipment? If so, how many should I build on each City? Or should I move more fighters into intercept range even though the ones I in range have been ineffective?Does anyone have an answer for me?

quote:

I'll take a look a the save you sent me, but so far I see no way as it being an exploit. All Soviet industry was made accounting German bombing, which was historically not so insignificant. They managed to shutdown some of the factories up so several months. Whole industry types (like rubber production in Yaroslavl) was shut down causing huge problems with whole range of equipment, including T-34 production in Stalingrad.


I never said it was an exploit. I do believe that as modeled it is too effective especially for night bombing, but I am certainly not an expert. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say "All Soviet industry was made accounting German bombing." Do you mean that if the Germans do not bomb Russian industry than, all other things being equal, the Russians will have more production than historical?


quote:

Also small industries cause more damage then the big ones. 30% damage to 11x T-34 is very small in fact.


Ok, but than shouldn't it also be easier to repair the small industries than the big ones, which I think is 3% per turn. I can see where very few bombs might destroy an entire very small industrial plant (though of course the bombing would than have to be more accurate). But than it shouldn't take the same number of weeks to repair/rebuild that industrial plant as it would a larger plant.

quote:

Again, I need to see 6x Romanian LB causing double digit damage.


I have sent the saved game and I believe you will see this occured in Stalingrad on Turn 16. This is not an isolated incident, I can send you other examples if you like.




gradenko2k -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 1:24:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
I informed Saper in an email that I thought his strategic bombing of Stalingrad and Gorky was way more effective than it should be. His response was as follows:

"Hi!
You not good protect industry in Stalingrad and Gorky (but best digin!!!!). Only one airbase and no attached PVO AA regiment on city. I send more than 400 level bomber to Gorky, bombing low 50% and damage only 20% factory. If be low effective, why this mode need?"

I'm not sure I fully understand what he is trying to tell me; so if anyone else does please translate.

He's saying something similar to what Flaviusx is saying: If the level of damage being inflicted is still considered too high, and its just going to be further revised downwards again, there's not going to be any point in keeping the entire air mission in the game at all.



EisenHammer -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 1:31:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rnickelson

From the dusty archives of my memory, I recall reading somewhere years ago that some German planners put a lot of thought in trying to identify where they could get the most bang for the buck on strategic bombing of Soviet targets. Their conclusion: bomb the electrical grid. But it never happened. But memories (especially mine) are fallible!




You are correct about a planned German air offensive in Russia.
The name of the Operation was EISENHAMMER. I pick my forum name after it.[;)]
It was a plan to strike at Russian power stations in November of 1943 but it never got off the ground.



Harrybanana -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 8:26:39 AM)

Ok so maybe I am making a big fuss about nothing. I finally had some spare rail cap to move the Stalingrad T34 factories and once I moved them there damage was reduced to 50%. In other words they end up in the Urals with the same damage they would have had if they had not been damaged at all prior to transport. Of course there were fewer of them to move as they have not been growing for a few turns. Is this WAD?



Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 9:21:31 AM)

quote:

Of course there were fewer of them to move as they have not been growing for a few turns. Is this WAD?


Yes



Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 9:22:32 AM)

quote:

Yes.

(I love these monosyllabic exchanges, Pavel.)


No, Flavio, no.. (I don't, just don't have time to go into pointless discussion with you here)



Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 9:57:48 AM)

Bob, I took a look at your save and I must agree with your opponent. You do nothing to protect your industrial cities. There is any single PVO AA unit attached to Stalingrad! Also the air base which covers it located 4 hexes south. Night intercepts are especially sensitive to the range. Once I built 4 AA Regs in Stalingrad enemy started to lose >50% of his night bombers causing very minor damage.

So you really need to build PVO in all industrial cities within the range of German bombers.





[image]local://upfiles/13846/2F133DAEACAC45EA8C4018E3FE076FFF.jpg[/image]



Joel Billings -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 10:05:05 AM)

Yes, I think Pavel was saying that if Germans don't bomb as they historically did, Soviet production will be higher than it was historically because it was accounted for in the factory numbers.

Flavio, Pavel disagrees with you regarding exactly what bombing was done. Although the German air force was clearly not in a position to do the kind of damage that came later with Allied strategic bombing, it doesn't mean that some damage wasn't done, and that some additional damage wasn't possible had the Germans decided to concentrate on bombing factories instead of concentrating on ground support. I think Pavel has plenty of specific examples of factory bombing in the East during the war. Unfortuately he is extermely busy working on WitW (and occasionally working on WitE) to spend a lot of time debating the issue. He's been doing some amazing coding lately and I for one want to keep him coding and not debating. But suffice it to say that he does not agree with the idea that no strategic bombing was done and that additional strategic bombing was not possible. It may not have had a decisive impact, but what's being discussed is did it have any impact and I believe Pavel has enough evidence that it did have an impact. Healthy, open debate is great, but you can blame Pavel's short answers on me because we're trying to stay focused on coding. In that area, FYI, Pavel has just added all the weather tables and weather effects to the editor in WitW, so you can see all MP and combat costs on screen and these can be edited. The weather system is nothing like that in WitE. It has 8 climate zones, 6 ground and 6 air weather conditions, 3 different grades of the road network, and weather fronts that move on the map to provide some randomness. It's not your grandfather's weather system. [:)]



morvael -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 10:54:54 AM)

Amazing, can't wait for WitE2 with those features :) WitW will be regimental scale not divisional, right?



Flaviusx -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 11:19:51 AM)

Great. So the solution here is to start building flak in Stalingrad and Gorky on October of 41. Needless to say, these cities weren't being bombed in real life at this time.

Joel, factory bombing has been a headache since Beta. It just needs to go away. First it was Ploesti, now this. The amount of trouble it has caused just isn't worth the bother. Most games on this subject rightly ignore the whole matter and don't even make it possible. I'm going to be completely frank here and say that WitE is not a good platform to deal with this subject, and you're introducing a whole new level of minutiae here that could be very easily dropped. Not to mention possibilities for cheese.

My advice to players: just say no. Make a house rule forbidding any such missions. Stop the madness.



Helpless -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 11:44:43 AM)

quote:

Great. So the solution here is to start building flak in Stalingrad and Gorky on October of 41. Needless to say, these cities weren't being bombed in real life at this time.


But flaks were.

quote:

My advice to players: just say no. Make a house rule forbidding any such missions.



My advice, please don't follow advise of the retired tester who didn't make any single report on city bombing.

quote:

Stop the madness.


Yes, please, Flavio.



Flaviusx -> RE: Strategic Bombing Overpowered? (12/15/2012 11:52:12 AM)

Pavel, I flatly refused to do it. I knew it was possible and excessively effective. We had plenty of reports from other testers about Ploesti. I didn't think I needed to add anything to that. I concluded from those reports that bombing in the game was greatly exaggerated.




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