Challenge: Neutral Belgium (Full Version)

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ulver -> Challenge: Neutral Belgium (12/24/2012 8:20:34 AM)

There was discussion about the reason there not being an option not to attack Belgium was then the Germans would always proceeded to destroy Russia in 1915.

I certainly do not think so. I was wondering if you would consider helping me test it. The basic rule house rules would be
Central Power may invade Belgium when he wants negating the special rules.
Until he does

Entente player must not place any Belgium units adjacent to a border (to prevent ZOC effect). That means moving the Liege garrison away as soon as possible

Other Entente units may not enter Belgian territory.

Britain is assumed to be initially neutral and then eventually entering the war to preserve the balance of power on the continent. To simulate this. Until 1916 no British units may enter the territory of another Entente power, attack a central power unit (that includes ships) or enter Central power territory unless a central power unit has entered France, attacked a French convoy, attacked a British unit or entered British territory. While the rule remains in effect No non-British entente unit may enter British hexes.

Is anyone interested?



JJKettunen -> RE: Challenge: Neutral Belgium (12/24/2012 11:30:52 AM)

Sure, but after Xmas.



ulver -> Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/27/2012 4:44:57 PM)

House Rules

1. Neutral Belgium. Until and unless neutrality is violated by the central powers the following apply:
1.1 Entente player may not build, place or move any Belgium units
1.2 Other Entente units may not enter Belgian territory.
1.3 Central Powers are considered to have violated Belgian neutrality when a Central Power unit attacks a Belgian unit or enters a Belgian hex. Doing so voids house rule section 1 and 2.


2.British neutrality. Britain is assumed to be initially neutral and then eventually entering the war to preserve the balance of power on the continent in response to Central Powers aggression. While neutral the following applies
2.1 No non-British Entente units may enter British hexes
2.2 No British units may enter the territory of another Entente power, attack a central power unit(that includes ships) or enter Central power territory.
2.3 Britain may not disband any units...
2.4. Britain is restricted in buying additional research centers.
2.4.1 To buy additional Ground Unit Research centers she must build and maintain one Infantry Army in addition to starting forces for each Research center she buys
2.4.2 To buy additional Artillery Research centers she must build and maintain two Artillery units for each Research center she buys
2.4.3 To buy additional Navel Research centers she must build and maintain one battleship in addition to starting forces for each Research center she buys
2.4.4 To buy additional Air Research centers she must build and maintain two fighters in addition to starting forces for each Research center she buys
2.4.5 To buy additional vehicle Research centers she must build and maintain two armored cars for each Research center she buys. Note: This to avoid Britain disbanding everything and putting everything into Research until 6 turns before she goes to war where she would sell some of the research she could not maintain and buy units
2.5 British entry into the Great War. Britain enters the war when
2.5.1 A central power unit enters Belgium or attacks a Belgian unit.
2.5.2 The Central Powers declare war on the Netherlands
2.5.3 A Central Power unit is adjacent to Paris or Rome
2.5.4 A Central Power unit attacks a French convoy
2.5.5 A Central Power unit attacks a British unit
2.5.6 A Central Power unit enters a British controlled hex.
2.5.7 It is 1916 or later
2.6 British entry into the war voids section 2 of the house rules. Note section 1 will still apply unless 2.5.1 applies


3. US entry into the great war
3.1 Germany must declare war on the USA on the 6th turn where any two of Paris, Rome, Petrograd/Moscow or London have been continuously held by the Central Powers.
3.1.1 Petrograd/Moscow only counts as one city even if both are captured – it counts if either has been captured
3.2 An accepted surrender counts as occupation of all cities in the surrendering nation


4 Air Power restrictions.
4.1 A nation can only have a number of zeppelins on the board equal to or less then their level of airship technology – 1. (As an example Germany is allowed 1 zeppelin at the start).
4.1 A nation can only have a number of bombers on the board equal to or less then their level of bombing technology – 1 (As an example France is not allowed any bombers at the start and Italy could build one when she enters the war)

Edit December 27th 2012 – Declaring war on the Netherlands is also a trigger for British intervention.



ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/27/2012 5:45:43 PM)

Consider it an open challenge. Anyone?



Amaranthus -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 3:05:24 AM)

I'll give it a go, Ulver - set it up and PM me the pw

The thing I don't like is that French troops can stay in supply via Belgium - we need an extra rule to cover this, methinks



ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 9:01:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaranthus

I'll give it a go, Ulver - set it up and PM me the pw

The thing I don't like is that French troops can stay in supply via Belgium - we need an extra rule to cover this, methinks


The game might be a bit slow given the pretty much the worst possible time zone difference. [;)] Since I’m playing the Central Powers against War spite do you mind me taking the Entente this time. You can set up the game.
How do you want to handle units only in supply via Belgium? Must disband?



warspite1 -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 9:43:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ulver


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaranthus

I'll give it a go, Ulver - set it up and PM me the pw

The thing I don't like is that French troops can stay in supply via Belgium - we need an extra rule to cover this, methinks


The game might be a bit slow given the pretty much the worst possible time zone difference. [;)] Since I’m playing the Central Powers against War spite do you mind me taking the Entente this time. You can set up the game.
How do you want to handle units only in supply via Belgium? Must disband?

warspite1

Gents I recommend you think about my suggestions for at least trying to make a game of this:

- The Germans cannot move any troops from the Western Front for say [five turns] (this simulates the fact that the British were wavering about coming in to the war) but importantly allows the Russians to choose their own defensive positions - or attack if they are mad enough!!

- The Austrians have to keep x% of their troops on the Serbian Front (this simulates the fact that the whole war was started in order to teach the Serbs a lesson). It gives the Russians a degree of hope.

Without these or something similar the scenario is pointless and is just a chase across Russia for the Germans and Austrians.



Amaranthus -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 10:58:20 AM)

For units isolated against the Belgium border, how about give 1 turn to get them back into supply, after which they must disband. Regarding time zone, it should be no problem, I keep strange hours and manage to play all of my games so far with folks from Europe and the US, with no issues.

I've set up a game, PW = belgium

warspite1, I'm happy to follow those additional requirements if ulver favours them too. I plan to crush Serbia under my AH steel-capped boot anyway, so the 2nd condition will be probably prove to be a non issue! They will not be a corpse, shackled to Germany!




ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 11:38:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaranthus

For units isolated against the Belgium border, how about give 1 turn to get them back into supply, after which they must disband. Regarding time zone, it should be no problem, I keep strange hours and manage to play all of my games so far with folks from Europe and the US, with no issues.

I've set up a game, PW = belgium

warspite1, I'm happy to follow those additional requirements if ulver favours them too. I plan to crush Serbia under my AH steel-capped boot anyway, so the 2nd condition will be probably prove to be a non issue! They will not be a corpse, shackled to Germany!



I’m at work now in the office and oddly enough my work PC seems to have difficulty running the game so I won’t be able to play until I come home tonight. You proposal regarding out of supply units is fine. I assume in only applies to units completely out of supply?

I don’t think there need to be any limitations on deployment of Central Powers forces along the lines suggested by Warspite. Germany and Austria needs to buy Rail capacity to move forces to the East front (and back in a hurry if needed [;)]) so the Russians should have plenty of time to move into the defensive position they want. He is right that Russia will be overrun but I feel
confident that I can slow the process down and win the war regardless.



JJKettunen -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 11:43:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ulver

I’m at work now in the office and oddly enough my work PC seems to have difficulty running the game so I won’t be able to play until I come home tonight.


Do you get a "zlib error" at the office like I do?



ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 8:58:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


quote:

ORIGINAL: ulver

I’m at work now in the office and oddly enough my work PC seems to have difficulty running the game so I won’t be able to play until I come home tonight.


Do you get a "zlib error" at the office like I do?

No, the game simply won’t start. I did ask the local IT guys to help me investigate but for some reason they don’t seem to think it is a priority.



ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/28/2012 9:00:43 PM)

Warspite seem to have thrown in the towel so I would really like a European time zone player to replace him. Anyone? Will happily play either side.



Amaranthus -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/29/2012 1:38:40 AM)

Well, I've submitted my first turn and am off and running - you just need to not sleep, that's all.



ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/29/2012 12:50:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaranthus

Well, I've submitted my first turn and am off and running - you just need to not sleep, that's all.

quote:

Amaranthus


While I appreciate my Australian night owl opponent I would still like a Europen time zone guy as well for fast play. After all poor Amaranthus will need to sleep sometime




ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/29/2012 2:00:34 PM)

Am embarrassed to say that Amaranthus is demolishing me in record time. He is overrunning the Russian army. That is not really a problem and quite expected - what is unexpected is that he is using the German battleship to strategically bomb Petrograd reducing it to 0 PP by early 1915.
I stand in awe of the High Seas Fleet effectively winning the war in the Baltic Sea. I may write up an AAR detailing my humiliation as it progresses. In light of this I would suggest we delete house rule 2.3, 2.4, 3.1.1 and 4 and for future games

Russia will still collapse just as easily but the other Entente powers can use the time much more constructively to begin to strike back and the US will enter upon the Russian surrender.

Needless to say that will in no way affect a game in progress but I needed to get it out here in case I can persuade someone else to play me.

I confess to being quite shocked. Using battleships for strategic bombardment is certainly a feature I intend to make full use of in the future. My basic plan with Russia was to hole up around Petrograd until the Russian revolution events would have triggered surrender and meanwhile build up an insurmountable technological lead with Britain/France but deprived of a Fortress Petrograd redoubt to make a heroic last stance I doubt the strategy is viable.

I had done some back of the envelope calculations that indicated that Russia can stay in the war as long as she holds Petrograd or the revolution events occur. That is still true obviously but with 0 productions from around turn 15 fairly irrelevant. If my original premise had held I was quite confident I could make a good stance around Petrograd/Finland even if he took the rest of Russia – and reducing hero cities garrisoned around the map by cheap maintainece armored trains would have taken some time.



Amaranthus -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/29/2012 3:54:00 PM)

It was deep strategic move, I admit [8D]

But as the war progresses, I'm still not sure how things are going to play out in the West, even under the current rules. It will be fascinating to see how it develops. Please to post up the AAR, and I'll add my comments and a retrospective analysis on what my long-term planning was based around.



ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (12/30/2012 10:43:40 AM)

Hi. You were right about it being a mistake to disband the French navy but even if I hadn’t there still would be no way to defend the Atlantic coast short of buying additional French battleships. The British would never had stood for the High Seas Fleet steaming down the channel and bombarding the French in support of invasions

This would be my suggestion for a 2 games mirrored test. Significant changes is that navel bombardment of the French outside the Med is a trigger as is a premature attack on Italy. (Knowing the precise moment of Attack helps the French prepare their response immensely. I know we didn’t get to your attack on Italy but the French simply can’t afford to keep 4 armies on standby from 1914 onwards along with building 3 rail points just to have a chance to deal with it.)

Also US will now be triggered for eventual entry by the surrender of Russia due to global balance of power concerns.

The restrictions on British research are redundant and I no longer see any reason to prevent the Entente from conducting all-out strategic bombardment especially as the subs will be almost 100% effective without the ability to research anti-sub technology.

House Rules

1. Neutral Belgium. Until and unless neutrality is violated by the central powers the following apply:
1.1 Entente player may not build, place or move any Belgium units
1.2 Other Entente units may not enter Belgian territory.
1.3 Central Powers are considered to have violated Belgian neutrality when a Central Power unit attacks a Belgian unit or enters a Belgian hex. Doing so voids house rule section 1 and 2.


2.British neutrality. Britain is assumed to be initially neutral and then eventually entering the war to preserve the balance of power on the continent in response to Central Powers aggression. While neutral the following applies
2.1 No non-British Entente units may enter British hexes
2.2 No British units may enter the territory of another Entente power, attack a central power unit or enter Central power territory.
2.5 British entry into the Great War. Britain enters the war when
2.5.1 A central power unit enters Belgium or attacks a Belgian unit.
2.5.2 The Central Powers declare war Italy prematurely.
2.5.3 The Central Powers declare war The Netherlands
2.5.4 A Central Power unit is adjacent to Paris or Rome
2.5.5 A Central Power unit attacks a French convoy
2.5.6 A Central Power navel unit bombards a French Atlantic costal hex or a land units or conducts an amphibious invasion against one
2.5.7 A Central Power unit attacks a British unit
2.5.8 A Central Power unit enters a British controlled hex.
2.5.7 Russia surrenders
2.5.9 It is 1916 or later
2.6 British entry into the war voids section 2 of the house rules. Note section 1 will still apply unless 2.5.1 applies


3. US entry into the great war
3.1 Germany must declare war on the USA on any turn where any two of Paris, Rome, Petrograd, Moscow or London have been continuously held by the Central Powers for 6 turns or more counting the first turn where both were held as the first
3.2 A surrender counts as occupation of all cities in the surrendering nation. This applies even if war is re-declared later

4. Surrender.
A nation may be voluntary surrendered for the purposes of these house rules. All on map units must be disbanded and no further may be placed unless that nation is subsequently declared war on again.

5. Petrograd.
No Navel bombardment or navel invasion directly on the Petrograd hex.

Edit: Forgot the Netherlands trigger. Added it



Amaranthus -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (1/5/2013 12:39:22 PM)

Well, as an update, Ulver and I have been trying out the new rules (see post #17 above). Serbia fell first, in late 1914, after a massive assault from both AH and German forces, along with 2 arty units in support.

Then, despite valiant defend-and-retreat efforts, Russia looks like it will fall in August 1915 or thereabouts. So the premise at the start of the thread, i.e.
quote:

There was discussion about the reason there not being an option not to attack Belgium was then the Germans would always proceeded to destroy Russia in 1915.
... looks to have been proven correct. This has been made worse by neutral Britain, as it has freed up the Ottoman Empire to ravage southern Russia.

That said, under the scenario we are now playing (with Britain still not participating - until Russia surrenders or 1916), the situation in Italy looks okay for the Entente. Britain will enter the war in a very strong position, both technology (except no anti-sub defence) and PP wise. It will be interesting to see how the post-1916 period plays out.

Ulver, you said in game that if Russia surrenders, then the US will enter the war after 6 turns. But I can't see that specified above?



ulver -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (1/5/2013 1:01:40 PM)

We should do an AAR – good game. You have played much better than me but then the scenario still favors the Central Powers so it works out.

In answer to your question about the US entering 6 turns after Russia surrenders it followers from logically from house rules 3.1 and 3.2 above does it not? I mean control of Petrograd and Moscow triggers it and if Russia surrenders I’m assumed to control all cities in Russia for the purposes of the rule so….



JJKettunen -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (1/5/2013 1:26:51 PM)

It's pretty easy* to mod Belgium as a neutral country, not participating unless attacked.

*now that I've learned it! [;)]



Amaranthus -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (1/5/2013 1:38:45 PM)

Okay, thanks Ulver, re: US entry - that makes sense, and will also help with my planning.

Yes, let's do an AAR - although I've not yet kept any screenies. It's been a terrific game so far - very different to the standard 1914 campaign, which is what I was after.



Jonathan Pollard -> RE: Proposed house rules for the Belgium challenge (4/9/2013 6:54:47 AM)

It's very easy to mod the game for a neutral Belgium/England, so you don't have to worry about the French retreating into Belgium or Belgian zones of control. Open 1914.lua in data/Scripts, go to line 746 or search for ScenarioSetup(). There you can change the starting alignment of all neutral nations. Change the Belgian value from 99.7 to 50 and the UK one from 99.5 to 50. You can then have a house rule about the CP declaring war against England if the conditions for UK entry are achieved. I'm thinking about doing a neutral Belgium/England/Turkey challenge with the UK and Turkey permanently neutral. The UK didn't intervene in the Franco-Prussian war even after the Germans were winning, so maybe they would have behaved similarly in WW1. I think it's possible that Turkey might have stayed neutral if the UK stayed neutral, because there would have been no need for the UK to antagonize Turkey by confiscating Turkish warships in UK ports, which is what happened in the real game. [:'(]



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