Gas & Mining stations Petition. (Full Version)

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harshmyth -> Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/16/2013 6:44:57 PM)

We should be able to upgrade Gas & Mining stations via Construction Ships. This would solves many woes. If you agree say " Aye ".



thiosk2 -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/16/2013 7:27:04 PM)

i'll agree with you here.

I'd like to see such installations as much more substantial entities, but I play 4x games for the economic aspect much more than combat or anything else.



Shadow Tiger -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/16/2013 10:25:18 PM)

Expand this to the ability to upgrade any station not orbiting a colony and I'll give you a heck yeah!

I kind of wonder if that hasn't been made possible simply because it could become a logistical nightmare in a huge game. 100+ mining stations and 5-6 constructors spread across 15 sectors. That might take a while. [:D]



jpwrunyan -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/16/2013 11:21:27 PM)

Aye.

1 justification of many: Why can a Constructor ship construct a gas/mining station out of nothing and yet somehow be unable to upgrade an existing one? Uhm, logic fail.



feelotraveller -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 4:07:16 AM)

I think it was mentioned that this feature was coming in Shadows. It should make the game much more unthinking and grossly easier.

Can't wait for all the complaints about the AI being incredibly lame and broken when trying to use this function.  [:'(]



feelotraveller -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 4:09:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

Aye.

1 justification of many: Why can a Constructor ship construct a gas/mining station out of nothing and yet somehow be unable to upgrade an existing one? Uhm, logic fail.


Yeah, I know. Just like auto-factories can upgrade/retrofit cars. Oh wait, they can't? [sm=00000280.gif]



Gareth_Bryne -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 8:39:55 AM)

quote:

1 justification of many: Why can a Constructor ship construct a gas/mining station out of nothing and yet somehow be unable to upgrade an existing one? Uhm, logic fail.


Because to upgrade is internal works (performed by workers inside the station) and to build is external works. To upgrade, a Constructor ship might be forced to take the whole place apart and put it back together. Realistically it would be nice to have corporations of mining stations, which take care of and upgrade them as time goes by. A corporate freighter might bring the necessary equipment to the station, which after that performs the upgrade.

Dang, this sounds more and more like Dwarf Fortress...



Sirian -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 12:02:21 PM)

Instictivly I would like a possibility to upgrade mining stations (or research stations) without scrapping them, but I fear the following would happen:

- Player has 5 constructors that build 50 stations in 10 game years (arbitrary numbers)
- Player (or automation) upgrades the designs
- 5 constructors need 5 game years to upgrade the designs where they cannot build anything new.

Given the frequency how often the automation upgrades a design the constructors wont have finished upgrading all deep space stations before they get the order to upgrade them again.

Either we are going to need a whole lot more constructors in future or we need a machanic to relieve them from upgrading station duty.

But still, I would LOVE the possibility to upgrade stations.

Regards, Sirian



Darkspire -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 12:32:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sirian

Instictivly I would like a possibility to upgrade mining stations (or research stations) without scrapping them, but I fear the following would happen:

- Player has 5 constructors that build 50 stations in 10 game years (arbitrary numbers)
- Player (or automation) upgrades the designs
- 5 constructors need 5 game years to upgrade the designs where they cannot build anything new.

Given the frequency how often the automation upgrades a design the constructors wont have finished upgrading all deep space stations before they get the order to upgrade them again.

Either we are going to need a whole lot more constructors in future or we need a machanic to relieve them from upgrading station duty.

But still, I would LOVE the possibility to upgrade stations.

Regards, Sirian


In that case it would be a really good idea to be able to give constructors a special set of orders, so that the constructor would do nothing unless it was to follow that order, for example:

Upgrade (mining stations, research stations and other bases like deep space radar stations, defense etc)
Repair (broken ships, mining stations and other bases like deep space radar stations, defense etc)
Construct (mining stations, research stations and other bases like deep space radar stations, defense etc)
None Any of the above that a ship has not been assigned to.

This might also help the AI as well as it would have specific objectives for the constructors.

Darkspire



Bingeling -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 7:03:44 PM)

This is complicated, and not very needed. The AI would lose. I think it is better left as is.



Shadow Tiger -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 7:26:26 PM)

Complicated yes, but I'm not so sure it isn't needed. Sure most mining bases can be left alone after being built. But what about other bases? Say a research station is built early on but the design is changed. A mining station that happens to be in an area that's become strategically important and you want to beef up?

I think we need the ability to upgrade/retrofit any and all stations in the game, selectively. Have the default be to not upgrade stations though, as I imagine most mining stations don't really need that. Considering that Shadows will be introducing empires that have no home planet I think the ability to retrofit stations may become far more important.



Tyrador -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 8:00:29 PM)

As Mining stations are private, they should be retrofitted/upgraded automatically?



tjhkkr -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 8:06:07 PM)

No objection to this...
Although as another thread points out: the pirates do a pretty fantastic job of trashing old out of date stations making way for new stations... [:D][:'(]



Darkspire -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/17/2013 9:45:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

No objection to this...
Although as another thread points out: the pirates do a pretty fantastic job of trashing old out of date stations making way for new stations... [:D][:'(]


Not mine they don't, haven't lost a Mk1 in over 12 games [:D]

The idea of being able to build constructors and give them specific tasks to follow makes buckets more sense than what it is at present, I'm forever checking on what there up to, its such a fine line to tread in queuing orders and letting them do what the AI says needs to be done, like broken ships there a nightmare to find, a small group of say 2 or 3 with the task command of REPAIR would make losing ships a memory. I know you have the find idle ship button but it is a pain having to work out a a schedule for a constructor to go and fix it, with a dedicated small group of constructors on REPAIR you wouldn't have to. Have to disagree on the fact of the AI getting lost with the commands, at present its 'do what you think needs doing' with the commands it just adds subroutines to the AI for specific areas which makes way more sense than the chaos at present.

Darkspire




jpwrunyan -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 12:01:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller


quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

Aye.

1 justification of many: Why can a Constructor ship construct a gas/mining station out of nothing and yet somehow be unable to upgrade an existing one? Uhm, logic fail.


Yeah, I know. Just like auto-factories can upgrade/retrofit cars. Oh wait, they can't? [sm=00000280.gif]


So here is another anology: the ISS is built/upgraded/retrofitted all while being operational in space. Which is more similar to a space station? A space station or a car?

My point stands.

edit:

Ok, I think I see the problem here. Note that I am advocating constructor ships going to the site and upgrading the station in question. I am not advocating that bases just magically upgrade themselves.



jpwrunyan -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 12:20:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gareth_Bryne

quote:

1 justification of many: Why can a Constructor ship construct a gas/mining station out of nothing and yet somehow be unable to upgrade an existing one? Uhm, logic fail.


Because to upgrade is internal works (performed by workers inside the station) and to build is external works. To upgrade, a Constructor ship might be forced to take the whole place apart and put it back together. Realistically it would be nice to have corporations of mining stations, which take care of and upgrade them as time goes by. A corporate freighter might bring the necessary equipment to the station, which after that performs the upgrade.

Dang, this sounds more and more like Dwarf Fortress...


Since you play Dwarf Fortress you get a free pass from my usual snark. In fact, I instinctively like you now.

I think taking the station apart and putting it back together is still something a constructor would be able to do. So on that point, I do not accept your explanation as a reason for constructors not to be able to modify/rebuild a station in space. So what if they take it apart? At least all the materials are there, so that removes the necessity of scrapping it and going to a colony to get new materials, right? If the old design and the new design both use the same reactor, then in what way does it makes more sense that I first scrap the station and then tell a constructor to go there and build a brand new one from scratch?

I also do not subscribe to your theory that upgrading is internal and construction is external. How do you upgrade a space port to have a long range scanner from inside the space port? Or a solar panel? The difference between upgrading bases orbitting a planet versus bases built in space seems arbitrary. It would be the same thing.

If you guys want to argue that massive and complete overhauls of ships, bases, etc. should not be possible with the retrofit/upgrade command, that is an entirely different discussion.




jpwrunyan -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 12:22:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyrador

As Mining stations are private, they should be retrofitted/upgraded automatically?


That would be fine except that the constructor ships are controlled by the state.



tjhkkr -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 1:22:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan
That would be fine except that the constructor ships are controlled by the state.


Construction vessels can be controlled by you. You can give it orders. I must be misunderstanding what you mean by this.



harshmyth -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 1:53:53 AM)

I think that "tjhkkr" makes a strong point in that "the pirates do a pretty fantastic job of trashing old out of date stations making way for new stations". I had not put much considerations into that perspective.

However I disagree that the Ai would struggle with this. Logistically speaking I think the remedy to just build more construction ships would be pretty valid.

I'm thinking that state controlled upgrades have 1 pro & 1 con. The "Pro" being that the expense is absorbed into the private sector though the "Con" is that it makes it to easy. So A balance is needed.

So to conclude ""my 2 cents "" the script would just have to be written and tested very well. It may not be worth the endeavor at all from the game dev perspective. But, damn would it still be nice to be able to upgrade any base in space.

Thanks all for your input.



feelotraveller -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 2:43:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller


quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

Aye.

1 justification of many: Why can a Constructor ship construct a gas/mining station out of nothing and yet somehow be unable to upgrade an existing one? Uhm, logic fail.


Yeah, I know. Just like auto-factories can upgrade/retrofit cars. Oh wait, they can't? [sm=00000280.gif]


So here is another anology: the ISS is built/upgraded/retrofitted all while being operational in space. Which is more similar to a space station? A space station or a car?

My point stands.

edit:

Ok, I think I see the problem here. Note that I am advocating constructor ships going to the site and upgrading the station in question. I am not advocating that bases just magically upgrade themselves.


There is a logic fail here but not where you think. We have one example where constructor ships can upgrade stations and one where they cannot and no realism as a touchstone. (As an aside spaceshuttles do not upgrade in our world and the ISS is a base at a colony so already considered upgradeable by the game.) So it is not a foregone conclusion either way whether constructor ships can be able to uprgrade bases. And yet you seem to think that they must be able to on the basis of... what?

Personally I'm easy with either narrative. Gameplay issues do worry me though. It is easy to say that the AI will have no trouble with this but I can't see that it is going to be any easier than the rest of DW for the AI and we've discussed to death the large limitations of the AI in the current version. At least part of this is when and where it builds certain bases. Another part is its strangenesses with upgrading ships. Now it is possible that fixes for these as well as robust and competitive algorithms for base upgrading will be preeent in Shadows but I think I have sufficient grounds for scepticism until I see what they amount to. [:)]



Gareth_Bryne -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 8:23:56 AM)

To jpwrunyan:

quote:

Since you play Dwarf Fortress you get a free pass from my usual snark. In fact, I instinctively like you now.


Pretends to faint in relief[:D]

quote:

I think taking the station apart and putting it back together is still something a constructor would be able to do. So on that point, I do not accept your explanation as a reason for constructors not to be able to modify/rebuild a station in space.


quote:

I also do not subscribe to your theory that upgrading is internal and construction is external. How do you upgrade a space port to have a long range scanner from inside the space port? Or a solar panel?


I did not mean that they can't or shouldn't, it's just isn't cost effective compared to spacesuiting the grunts and letting them at it. There is always a limited amount of CS, and they may have more important assignments. That's why I threw in the idea of corporate management.

Speaking of which, it's interesting to discuss the niche that the CS take up between the state and private sectors. It's not satisfying for a private firm to wait for years for a new improvement, and, more so, rely upon the military's whim to install it. On the other side, the military is not interested in things that distract its vessels from matters of national security. So, private/corporate CS. In the early stages of the game, space is lonely and dangerous. Later on, think EVE-O, megacorps with private "security" fleets... Am I talking about a fourth expansion for DW[:)]?


quote:

If you guys want to argue that massive and complete overhauls of ships, bases, etc. should not be possible with the retrofit/upgrade command, that is an entirely different discussion.


Definitely not, it's not about the principle of the command, but the process behind it.



harshmyth -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 9:49:12 AM)

After reading this thread and a few others on "Mining" it seems to be that many of us simply want to not be bothered with our stations getting destroyed by ""fatherless"" pirates.

I feel kind of divided on this subject because we "can" manually build armed Stations to replace destroyed stations or have ships defend them. The method of having to Micromanage station defense "can" feel like a lack of oversight but perhaps any other way of doing things would imbalance or even break the cohesion of the "current" game mechanics. As the A.I. is not an actually "true AI" And I think that's what alot of us want, our wits vs the machine on an even playing field. In a large scope a few stations getting blown up because they're not sufficiently defended is a drop in the bucket. Nonetheless Distant Worlds is 4x Space Opera on a unrivaled scale. I've never seen such an ambitious game ever in my life. Whats best is that the game is still developing.

Anyhow I think the dev's did a really good job on the pirates and I'm really excited to see the new features in D.W. Shadows.

-Hey at least pirates cant attack colony's, So we do see some mercy.



Gareth_Bryne -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 10:35:39 AM)

quote:

-Hey at least pirates cant attack colony's, So we do see some mercy.


Well, that's why the Shadows come... [sm=character0169.gif]



KAHUNA -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 10:59:12 AM)

There are repair bots that can be assigned to any station or ship you want .Why not allow them the task of upgrades while freighters bring in the needed materials?There will be a cost to this of course as there usually is ,but as long as the station being upgraded is 100%intact and has the required repair bots I don't see any problems.[:)]



Bingeling -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 11:49:36 AM)

Because repairing is not the same as upgrading?

If you want to upgrade a station not at colony scrap it. If you can't scrap it, hire pirates to destroy it, or something. If you can't get pirates to kill it, it hardly matters, since you probably want to upgrade for weaponry/defenses, anyways.

If you want some fancy mining stuff, build star bases and pay for them yourself. You can at least scrap those at will.



Tyrador -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 12:13:55 PM)

Independent construction ships could be an answer.[;)]



KAHUNA -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 1:58:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Because repairing is not the same as upgrading?

If you want to upgrade a station not at colony scrap it. If you can't scrap it, hire pirates to destroy it, or something. If you can't get pirates to kill it, it hardly matters, since you probably want to upgrade for weaponry/defenses, anyways.

If you want some fancy mining stuff, build star bases and pay for them yourself. You can at least scrap those at will.



I understand that repairing is NOT the same as upgrading but aren't we talking about a system that would ALLOW upgrading?The repair bots would be ideal for this and already in place..if you don't like the idea you would not have to implement it.You can go back to the tear down or destroy method you are embracing[:)]
Try to think of the repair bot as being in control of nannites that do the work and not as some sort of R2D2 that shuffles along slowly and arc welds things here and there.[:)]
It's really not that much of a stretch to allow the repair bot this capability since it does a fine job repairing all the techs now, so given a new template and materials I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible to allow it to "upgrade" facilities.At least station facilities..for ships I think drydocking them for upgrades would be quicker and more keeping within the realms of possiblity.



Shark7 -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 4:38:14 PM)

+1 this is something we've asked for before and it is still a valid request.



Shadow Tiger -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/18/2013 8:09:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
There is a logic fail here but not where you think. We have one example where constructor ships can upgrade stations and one where they cannot and no realism as a touchstone.

Actually constructors never make upgrades to anything. Stations can only be upgraded at a colony, and each colony (the planet) has one huge shipyard that does all the work. If you queue up a couple of colony ships then a starport and maybe a defensive base or two you're going to be waiting for everything to finish.

Right now constructors build and repair only. Essentially what we're talking about in this thread is giving them the ability to retrofit stations. I don't think stations really need to retrofit very often, but the need is there in certain situations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyrador
Independent construction ships could be an answer.[;)]

Smart alek. [:D]



feelotraveller -> RE: Gas & Mining stations Petition. (1/19/2013 6:16:44 AM)

Perhaps you should reread what I wrote.*  I'm with you Shadow Tiger in understanding what the discussion is about, although I would prefer that we don't get the upgrade ability for remote bases.  I think it will make the game worse.  That said it is a request which has been repeatedly made by many people.  [&:]

* In the quote above I was referring to examples being adduced as to why constructor ships should or shouldn't be able to upgrade remote bases (and not whether they currently do so or not) in the game.  jpwrunyan seems to think that there is some logical reason why they must be able to upgrade bases - a reason that I can't see.



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