RE: Women In the Infantry

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Karri -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/20/2015 1:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner quote: ORIGINAL: Orm I suggest that these problems should be dealt with rather than avoided. Young men, and women, should be thought early that certain behaviour is not acceptable in our civilization. Separating men and women can not be our solution. Then the culprits will behave badly somewhere else. Hmmmmm? Didn't we have the 10 Commandments? Didn't we have Hammurabi's Code? Both for centuries? Don't we still have numerous laws and "instruction"? I am sure that most mothers and fathers are not teaching their children to go out and "misbehave". Words will never be able to overcome human instinct. Neither will social engineering. Base human behavior is going to trump any rules that are passed. Especially when society does not enforce it's rules anyway. Maybe I can say it without being lambasted? There will always be crime and criminals. There will always be laws and prisons. And, back to the original point. There will be a lot less women in fighting units if they are held to the standard of the infantry fighter. And, then a lot less "opportunity" for "men to be men and women to be women". RR More laws more prisons and prisoners. I kinda wish we returned back to some kind of ten commandment solution.

Perturabo -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/20/2015 6:53:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner quote: ORIGINAL: Orm I suggest that these problems should be dealt with rather than avoided. Young men, and women, should be thought early that certain behaviour is not acceptable in our civilization. Separating men and women can not be our solution. Then the culprits will behave badly somewhere else. Hmmmmm? Didn't we have the 10 Commandments? Didn't we have Hammurabi's Code? Both for centuries? Don't we still have numerous laws and "instruction"? I am sure that most mothers and fathers are not teaching their children to go out and "misbehave". Words will never be able to overcome human instinct. Neither will social engineering. It doesn't mean things cant change for better, though. Current generation of kids seems to be much less horrible than my generation. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner Base human behavior is going to trump any rules that are passed. It's not "base human behaviour". It's a behaviour of some types, which I would hesitate to call human.

Kuokkanen -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/20/2015 6:57:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karri More laws more prisons and prisoners. I kinda wish we returned back to some kind of ten commandment solution. 10 commandments alone aren't enough. Did you know that laws define such things as width of roads and how much weight bridges need to hold? 10 commandments don't define that. Still following them won't get people into harm. And I've been taught about them in the schools.

Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/20/2015 8:09:26 PM)
Wow, I thought this thread was long gone.[X(]

Jagdtiger14 -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 3:05:17 AM)
Perturabo: I'm not sure where and what generation you are from (I'm late Baby Boomer). Todays kids are far, far worse than anything I have ever witnessed or experienced...and on many different levels. I am both hopeful and worried at the same time about the next generation (post Millennial). Hopeful because I think it cant get worse, and worried that if they are not better...I fear for my country.

MrRoadrunner -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 11:26:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen quote: ORIGINAL: Karri More laws more prisons and prisoners. I kinda wish we returned back to some kind of ten commandment solution. 10 commandments alone aren't enough. Did you know that laws define such things as width of roads and how much weight bridges need to hold? 10 commandments don't define that. Still following them won't get people into harm. And I've been taught about them in the schools. Matti, there is a difference between a law and a regulation (or requirement). Though, it has been muddled and executives believe they can circumvent law by issuing regulations, law should trump all. The Ten Commandments are laws that keep people from becoming their base human natures. My favorite "law/rule" is "do unto others what you want others to do unto you". If someone treats you like crap because you treated them that way, you have no one to blame but yourself. If someone treats you like crap because they operate from their base human self, then you can blame them, dust yourself off and move on to better things. As far as your "bridge" is concerned, safety creates regulations. And, there is an old saying; "the more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state." The US Constitution is roughly seventeen double spaced typed pages. It created a Nation like no other. The Health Care Law is over ten thousand pages, with footnotes pointing to numerous bills passed into law over the course of years. Chew on that? I think it is better to get back to the simple laws and the simple way of doing things. As Karri said, more laws, more law breakers, more prisoners, and more prisons. Which means more money from less people to try and then house/feed the criminals? That is an enormous cost burden on society. Similar in the vein of the thread. Creating rules/laws that give a person who is unqualified the same "right" to perform a job that they simply cannot do, and which may cost the lives of others, because they are a different gender (and someone felt bad that they did not have the opportunity) is simply the madness of going down the politically correct rabbit hole. Corporations might be made to be held to a quota standard, so many of this gender and so many of this race, because lives are not at stake. But, in my world, the military and corporations should be able to put the "best qualified" candidates in place so that the job gets done better. The other way is simply a form of the "corrupt state" infusing itself where it does not belong. RR

Karri -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 3:49:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen quote: ORIGINAL: Karri More laws more prisons and prisoners. I kinda wish we returned back to some kind of ten commandment solution. 10 commandments alone aren't enough. Did you know that laws define such things as width of roads and how much weight bridges need to hold? 10 commandments don't define that. Still following them won't get people into harm. And I've been taught about them in the schools. Sorry, but this is perhaps the most important reason why I don't live in Finland anymore(okay, the weather is the biggest): the strange belief that everything must be regulated by law. As if it is impossible to build a road without making a law out of it. The kind of thinking that without dictionaries we don't have words. I mean sure, use regulations. But law? Law should be like don't kill and don't steal. One of the reasons modern world is so ****ed up is because we have laws for everything, and for the first time in history the capability to monitor them more effectively than any other time in history.

berto -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 5:19:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo Amusingly, the percentage [of sexual "assault"] is the same as on campuses. But then campuses are horrible places that are best to be avoided. Meant ironically, I hope. As a grad student in my early 20s, I once had a (unattractive) young lady paw me in the backseat of a car. (No, I didn't succumb to her unwanted advances.) The horror! I guess that makes me a rape victim. [8\|]

Zap -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 6:56:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: berto quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo Amusingly, the percentage [of sexual "assault"] is the same as on campuses. But then campuses are horrible places that are best to be avoided. Meant ironically, I hope. As a grad student in my early 20s, I once had a (unattractive) young lady paw me in the backseat of a car. (No, I didn't succumb to her unwanted advances.) The horror! I guess that makes me a rape victim. [8\|] In todays terms and understanding you were sexually molested at most. To be raped you would have to had the sexual act forced upon you.

Orm -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 7:04:29 PM)
I hope that no one seriously think that the Ten Commandments would be enough.

berto -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 7:29:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zap quote: ORIGINAL: berto quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo Amusingly, the percentage [of sexual "assault"] is the same as on campuses. But then campuses are horrible places that are best to be avoided. Meant ironically, I hope. As a grad student in my early 20s, I once had a (unattractive) young lady paw me in the backseat of a car. (No, I didn't succumb to her unwanted advances.) The horror! I guess that makes me a rape victim. [8\|] In todays terms and understanding you were sexually molested at most. To be raped you would have to had the sexual act forced upon you. No, in today's terms, I believe I was sexually assaulted. Too many people are casually equating "rape" (as I did, tongue in cheek) with "sexual assault" with "sexual molestation" with merely boorish behavior. I am not making this up. Do a Bing or Google search on "campus rape epidemic". Quoting just one article: quote: But is it [the claim that one in five women will be raped during her time at college] accurate? Statistics surrounding sexual assault are notoriously unreliable and inconsistent, primarily because of vague and expansive definitions of what qualifies as sexual assault. Christina Hoff Sommers of the American Enterprise Institute explains that the study often cited as the origin of the "one in five" factoid is an online survey conducted under a grant from the Justice Department. Surveyors employed such a broad definition that "'forced kissing" and even "attempted forced kissing" qualified as sexual assault.

altipueri -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/21/2015 8:01:18 PM)
Battle of the Bulge. Not infantry but.. 71 years ago my mother, then aged 20, was in charge of an anti aircraft gun on the edge of Brussels. (Part of ATS - Ack-Ack) With Brussels and Antwerp potentially threatened the ATS girls were ordered to prepare for evacuation via Dunkirk. They decided that order hadn't been received, and readied the guns.

Jim D Burns -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 4:56:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: altipueri Battle of the Bulge. Not infantry but.. This is a stark example of why people seem to be talking past each other on this debate. No one is saying that women can't or shouldn't fight in roles they are capable of preforming under. All that is being said is that to force feed women into infantry roles, roles which require herculean levels of strength and stamina at times, is to degrade the fighting ability of our infantry. One side is arguing common sense, the other is making a political statement based on a PC agenda and simply fails to understand or hear the actual argument being made. Thank your mother and those who fought with her for her service if she's still with us. In times of dire needs drafting women into a conscript army makes sense and I would have no issue with it. But today's US military is an elite organization and because of that our combat casualties are lower than they have ever been. Degrade our infantry with woman who can't keep up and do the required job and casualty rates will skyrocket. Here's a cut and paste of a post I made back when this thread first came up. I highly recommend everyone listen to her entire interview, she was just as adamant about woman doing any job men could when she started but the harsh realities of her own physical limitations caused her permanent medical issues and she still failed to keep up with the men. In the end she did what I saw done time and time again on the police force, she hid herself and the other female away to keep themselves alive and they simply failed to do their asigned tasks and had to leave it up to the men to pick up their slack. quote: Katie Petronio is a USMC captain with two combat deployments. Her words speak volumes about the differences between men and women that women activists simply don't want to admit. Of note listen to her comments at 5:02, it speaks to the need to 'protect' women due to their inability to cope with the job they so desperately think they can handle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FABcQRv2vQ With just two women in the Platoon she managed to get herself and the other female through their tour, but both of them were very sick and worn down even though they stayed in the vehicles as much as possible. Now imagine the problems you'll have with 10 or more females in a platoon, no way you can safely hide them all in their vehicles and still manage to achieve your mission tasks. Not to mention how pissed the men will be having to do their own jobs and the jobs of the women who aren't capable of cutting it. It's not sexism, it's a fact of life. Women cannot handle the same level of physical demands that men can handle in combat. There are plenty of jobs women can do and are currently doing in the military, combat duty is not one of them and should never be one. People are going to end up dying because of this political correctness crap. Jim

MrRoadrunner -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 11:52:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karri I mean sure, use regulations. But law? Law should be like don't kill and don't steal. One of the reasons modern world is so f***d up is because we have laws for everything, and for the first time in history the capability to monitor them more effectively than any other time in history. Not nit picking but the root word is "murder" not "kill" (in later context you will hear "if you commit 'murder' you should be 'killed'). And, I agree, don't steal. If we all lived by this and the other 8 we'd have a greater world. Especially if all Governmental entities were held to the same standard? Sometimes there are so many laws that they end up obscured, misinterpreted, and/or ignored. When authority is allowed to enforce "what they want" we have corruption of the highest order. Couple that with the failure to use common sense and you get what we have in most Governments today. RR

MrRoadrunner -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 11:55:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Orm I hope that no one seriously think that the Ten Commandments would be enough. All Ten? Yup! I do. Trouble is that most of mankind has dropped the first two and only look at the last eight. After all, we are all just bricks in the wall? RR

MrRoadrunner -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 12:08:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: berto quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo But then campuses are horrible places that are best to be avoided. Meant ironically, I hope. Taking the "sexual assaults out of the equation, I agree with Perturabo. Especially if he is dead serious. Most campus' teach garbage to our young people (the majority actually learn very little). They are expensive "resorts" of mind numbing intellectual pollution and are just more expensive "party" resorts. A giant waste of money is paid by parents who think college is good for their children. But in the end college is there to mostly, and simply, brainwash our youth. Young men and women would be better off serving in the military. If they had what it takes to get into the military, of course. Hopefully the garbage that has slowly been incubating in the military will get rooted out, and they will be a better institution for it too (ie political correctness over common sense). RR

Kuokkanen -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 2:21:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner Sometimes there are so many laws that they end up obscured, misinterpreted, and/or ignored. When authority is allowed to enforce "what they want" we have corruption of the highest order. Couple that with the failure to use common sense and you get what we have in most Governments today. I don't think "too many laws" are required to corrupt government or anything. Way, way back common people didn't know much else than 10 commandments, and yet knights and nobility could (and did) kill their own subjects for whatever reason and without reason. Even today in some places national law is ignored and religious law is applied instead. I have read news article about girl in Bangladesh. She was victim of rape, and becouse of that she was accused of unchastity according the Sharia. Judgement was some 100 lashes. She fainted at 80 and was taken to hospital where she died. Bangladesh law had already abolished use of such punitive methods. LAWS ARE NOT REQUIRED FOR CORRUPTION AND CRIMINALIZATION!

Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 2:43:06 PM)
If You've never been in the Infantry....ever. Then you need to Listen to this Young Marine Captain. You who never served(not putting down) don't know. You only know what you think, or read, or heard. You've never done it. I know some of you don't want to hear this but it's the truth. Your Opinion in nothing more, than a opinion. The PC warrior's are killing our fighting forces, ability to close with and engage the enemy(Infantry-MOS). I served over twenty plus year in the Regular Army Infantry-from a Pvt. E-1 to a 1SG E-8. I've seen the good and the bad thru my career and the young Capt. tells it better than I ever could. So if you have NEVER served, you need to listen to this video. quote: ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns quote: ORIGINAL: altipueri Battle of the Bulge. Not infantry but.. This is a stark example of why people seem to be talking past each other on this debate. No one is saying that women can't or shouldn't fight in roles they are capable of preforming under. All that is being said is that to force feed women into infantry roles, roles which require hurculean levels of strength and stamina at times is to degrade the fighting ability of our infantry. One side is arguing common sense, the other is making a political statement based on a PC agenda and simply fails to understand or hear the actual argument being made. Thank your mother and those who fought with her for her service if she's still with us. In times of dire needs drafting women into a conscript army makes sense and I would have no issue with it. But today's US military is an elite organization and because of that our combat casualties are lower than they have ever been. Degrade our infantry with woman who can't keep up and do the required job and casualty rates will skyrocket. Here's a cut and paste of a post I made back when this thread first came up. I highly recommend everyone listen to her entire interview, she was just as adamant about woman doing any job men could when she started but the harsh realities of her own physical limitations caused her permanent medical issues and she still failed to keep up with the men. In the end she did what I saw done time and time again on the police force, she hid herself and the other female away to keep themselves alive and they simply failed to do their asigned tasks and had to leave it up to the men to pick up their slack. quote: Katie Petronio is a USMC captain with two combat deployments. Her words speak volumes about the differences between men and women that women activists simply don't want to admit. Of note listen to her comments at 5:02, it speaks to the need to 'protect' women due to their inability to cope with the job they so desperately think they can handle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FABcQRv2vQ With just two women in the Platoon she managed to get herself and the other female through their tour, but both of them were very sick and worn down even though they stayed in the vehicles as much as possible. Now imagine the problems you'll have with 10 or more females in a platoon, no way you can safely hide them all in their vehicles and still manage to achieve your mission tasks. Not to mention how pissed the men will be having to do their own jobs and the jobs of the women who aren't capable of cutting it. It's not sexism, it's a fact of life. Women cannot handle the same level of physical demands that men can handle in combat. There are plenty of jobs women can do and are currently doing in the military, combat duty is not one of them and should never be one. People are going to end up dying because of this political correctness crap. Jim

Karri -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 5:49:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen LAWS ARE NOT REQUIRED FOR CORRUPTION AND CRIMINALIZATION! Part of the point, we should keep them to minimum to make sure they are not used for corruption...because in the end everything gets corrupted. Don't murder is not so corruptible(oh, except of course government can murder...and whoever is in charge of government) as how much money you can sell oil, wind power etc for.

Zap -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 6:01:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karri quote: ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen LAWS ARE NOT REQUIRED FOR CORRUPTION AND CRIMINALIZATION! Part of the point, we should keep them to minimum to make sure they are not used for corruption...because in the end everything gets corrupted. Don't murder is not so corruptible(oh, except of course government can murder...and whoever is in charge of government) as how much money you can sell oil, wind power etc for. CORRUPTION AND CRIMINALIZATION! demand laws, to bring justice to the injured and protect citizens in society. Individuals, become corrupted or can be just plain evil not just governments

MrRoadrunner -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 6:05:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karri quote: ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen LAWS ARE NOT REQUIRED FOR CORRUPTION AND CRIMINALIZATION! Part of the point, we should keep them to minimum to make sure they are not used for corruption...because in the end everything gets corrupted. Don't murder is not so corruptible(oh, except of course government can murder...and whoever is in charge of government) as how much money you can sell oil, wind power etc for. I agree with the first point. Tied into a previous point I made, The Constitution was 17 double spaced typed pages. The power was in the hands of the people. Thus WE THE PEOPLE begins the first sentence and was written larger than the rest. Those who "run" the government today well don't want the people to really understand that. Secondly Matti brings up knights of old and nobility? What for? A murderer is a murderer regardless of wealth or stature. There was no divine right of kings and nobles only had power when there was no one to keep it from them. There was no right to "murder" as there is no right of women, who do not qualify, to fight as infantry fighters. And, lastly, the regulations are what keeps prices high. That and taxes. Who makes the regulations and imposes taxes? Just saying! In America "WE THE PEOPLE" would not allow the unjust regulations and higher taxes if we knew (and used) our "power". Too many have become 'sheeple' and depend on the entity called government. RR

Kuokkanen -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 6:13:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner Secondly Matti brings up knights of old and nobility? What for? Someone complained about too numerous laws. Laws were simplier and much less numerous when such people (knights and nobles) were all around Europe neglecting their duties, ignoring laws and 10 commandments, abusing their power, and legal authorities didn't do frak about it.

Alchenar -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 6:45:12 PM)
The spread of the concept of rule of law and the strengthening of state institutions over authority wielded by individuals is one of the best things to happen in the history of human civilisation, and it's why right now across the Western world we've never had so many civil rights distributed across so much of the population. There's literally never been a better time to be alive and you old fogies are wrong for thinking otherwise. As far as women in the infantry go, two salient points: 1) On the modern battlefield there's no clear distinction between the front line and the rear line. If there are women on the ground in an active deployment then they will participate in combat. Once you accept that then the obvious way forward is to focus your effort on working out how to configure your army, training, and doctrine so that women can participate in combat at maximum effectiveness. Once you've done that then you have an army in which women can participate in infantry roles and you know what standards you need to expect them to meet. 2) If your response to 1) is 'well why not just remove women from the combat zone entirely?' - that's not an option. Even if you don't care about principles of equal opportunity at all, the straightforward fact is that a decade into the War on Terror Western Militaries are suffering from a manpower crisis and if you talk to any serving senior officers they'll tell you they're way more excited about the prospects for maintaining and enhancing their capabilities that an influx of a fresh pool of manpower will have than any problems caused by adjustment cause them to worry. tl;dr: yeah putting women into infantry combat roles will probably cause some teething problems. That's true of literally any organisational reform ever. Desegregation didn't do anything to degrade unit effectiveness, nor did the repeal of bans on homosexuals. If anything those moves made the army more effective. The same is true here.

charlie0311 -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/22/2015 10:54:19 PM)
Alchenar, you are a fool. I would state the reasons but would be pointless. Let's put it this way, people like for their lives to have meaning, value if you like, so they adapt the current "way cool" to do so.

MrRoadrunner -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/23/2015 10:04:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alchenar The spread of the concept of rule of law and the strengthening of state institutions over authority wielded by individuals is one of the best things to happen in the history of human civilisation, and it's why right now across the Western world we've never had so many civil rights distributed across so much of the population. There's literally never been a better time to be alive and you old fogies are wrong for thinking otherwise. Actually, this is a totally wrong thought. Stalin and Hitler thought they gave more civil rights to their people. How did that work out? The oxymoron here is the State "giving" or distributing civil rights. The only thing a State can do is take away civil rights. People standing up for their rights is the only true way to have/keep civil rights. I will never ask the state to give me any civil rights. I will ask them to not take them away. Waiting for the State to give me anything is a fools journey into slavery and abuse at the hands of that very State. I snipped out the comments about women in the military because it lacked logic. RR

Jim D Burns -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/24/2015 2:11:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alchenar The spread of the concept of rule of law and the strengthening of state institutions over authority wielded by individuals is one of the best things to happen in the history of human civilisation, The insanity of this statement is breathtaking. Ask the people of Ukraine what they think about the strengthening of the state, ask them how it worked out for them. I highly suggest you watch this documentary (You'll need a netflix account to see it, but I think the first months free so its worth making an account to watch this) to see a modern day state institution in action, watching the police near the end of the film first drive the protesters into a large packed group and then open fire with sniper rifles and machineguns is an education about state power and corruption I think you need: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joXsQjY_owc Yes it can happen here, you're delusional if you think it can't. The fact the liberal media in this country all but ignored this tragedy as it unfolded tells us a lot about what the press in this country thinks about freedom and individual rights. Jim

Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/24/2015 4:05:06 AM)
quote: and the strengthening of state institutions over authority wielded by individuals is one of the best things to happen in the history of human civilisation, Disturbing. I have yet to meet a totalitarian-minded leftist that didn't think themselves as a member of the Nomenklatura. That, in essence, is the fallacy of their ideology. They always assume it will be their ideas that will be fostered while those in opposition will be suppressed. In Soviet times, those same people were eventually piped into the Gulag systems where they met the exact same fate as all other individuals. People can try to artificially suppress individuality but, only for a time. History proves it. So shall the future. mo reb

operating -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/24/2015 5:32:03 AM)
Most of the jobs I have been on have been with working men, yes from time to time a female has been apart of the crew, yes they do their part on the job, often cuddled when the going get's tough, or risky. Being a Vet I would not want to have my butt put at risk in a combat situation just to satisfy PC...

Revthought -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/25/2015 12:32:24 AM)
I am really reluctant to post here; however, I cannot stop myself. There is something really wrong with many of you. Who cares if women can serve in combat roles? Women have been serving in that capacity since the beginning of time. In modernity we saw it in the Soviet Union during the Second World War, where women served with the Soviet armed forces with distinction. There were no problems with discipline, and Soviet society did not collapse. In fact, the Soviets actually won that war, remember? Furthermore, women have been in combat roles for years in the armies of many nations. I don't hear anyone saying anything about women seriously degrading the IDF. Finally I don't want to live n your world where there is some assumed natural distinction between genders. I don't care if my 18 year daughter has to face selective service. In fact, I feel the same way about it as my son. I don't want to lose either of them in a rich mans war. What I do want is a world in which my daughter is acknowledged as a human being, who isn't limited by her gender. One in which people rightly assume that she can do, and should be allowed to do, anything she puts her mind to. A lot of you are living in a twisted version of the past, the memory of which we cannot hurry out of living memory fast enough.

gradenko2k -> RE: Women In the Infantry (12/25/2015 1:34:41 AM)
At the very least this is an overtly political thread, and is inappropriate per the forum rules.

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