IJN subchasers (Full Version)

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Stvitus2002 -> IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 1:25:54 AM)

Does anyone bother building the smaller (99 ton) CHa subchasers?
If so what do you use them for?
They are slow,short-ranged,have only basic type95 charges,
and no meaningful upgrades.
Have a handful in service,have halted the rest.



WO 0/0



Q-Ball -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 1:59:59 AM)

I would like to hear other opinions, but I build them.

They are not very good. But in most cases, they aren't sub killers, but rather there to just make subs stay under water.

Their main virtue is that they are very cheap to build, so why not?

I use them to escort lower-value convoys around the Home Islands, like ones hauling resources, etc.



nashvillen -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 2:57:37 AM)

I use them to patrol shallow areas and in a pinch to keep the subs submerged. A sub that isn't attacking my convoys is an ineffective sub.



PaxMondo -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 3:56:39 AM)

Definitely build them.  As QB states: they're cheap.  They keep allied subs in port.   The eat torps that would otherwise hit an xAK or TK.



crsutton -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 5:42:46 AM)

Yep, speaking from the Allied side any escort you can build is worth is. The targeting for submarines is so screwed up that any escort in a TF stands a good chance of getting attacked over any merchant no matter what the value of the target. And most of the time the sub misses. Does not matter if the escort has no teeth to it. They are all very useful. Build them...



obvert -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 10:03:14 AM)

I agree with the posts above. Although I've lamented their ability to carry out an attack considering the DC value of 8 assigned to them, I realize they do take a hit for some more valuable ships, do keep subs under if in an ASW role, and can be very good at defending ports and shallow water areas.

I've had some success using them in narrow channels with a good TF leader added, areas where subs move through into the DEI for instance and have to go between islands. I'll at times just leave one on stationary patrol there. I've gotten several attacks and at least one kill from that. Lets me know if something is moving into the area as well so the better open water capable ships can move in. I think all together I've had about 3 subs destroyed by these guys in the war, up to 1/44 now.



Swenslim -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 11:23:32 AM)

Definitly build them! You must swarm Palembang to Singapore rout with ASW, and chanell between Taiwan-Pescadores - China



Stvitus2002 -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 3:25:13 PM)

quote:

eat torps that would otherwise hit an xAK or TK.


quote:

very cheap to build


I can see what you are saying,but they are so short ranged that they
slow down anything they escort.
Speaking of build points, what are your daily Nav & Merch yard point totals?
I have :1474 Naval
922 Merchant


WO 0/0



Chickenboy -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 3:54:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0

Does anyone bother building the smaller (99 ton) CHa subchasers?
If so what do you use them for?
They are slow,short-ranged,have only basic type95 charges,
and no meaningful upgrades.
Have a handful in service,have halted the rest.



WO 0/0


Goodness yes! I love 'em! (seriously). Park 'em in their own 'patrol' hex (1 hex per SC) around your key ports to increase the safety of your resource / oil / fuel convoys when arriving near port. You can effectively blanket many high value hexes this way and increase DL of any approaching submarine.

As we all know, a detected submarine is a thwarted submarine. When combined with mobile H/K groups, air naval search and dedicated air ASW, this can be stultifying effect.



Terminus -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 8:15:03 PM)

The point is that the IJN subchasers aren't MEANT to escort your long-range convoys; so the point about them slowing down things is moot. Plop them into independent, short-range ASW task forces.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/2/2013 11:23:10 PM)

I use them as port-ASW defense;

I have an ASW TF on each important HI port; patrolling the waters used by convoys, and up to 4 or 5 hexes.
Each of this TF is composed of 3 sub chasers and 1 Kiso PB.

I am in early war, and so far I haven't sunk anything, but almost in every turn I get some submarine action; usually the sub attacks, misses and then it gets pinned down by an unsuccesfull depth charge attack. Once in a while it gets caught in shallow waters, and then it can be funny to watch [;)]

My best "sub punisher" so far is the Aden freighter ship [:D]; it is just a matter of getting them into deck gun fights; they will obviously get the worst part, but 2 or 3 lucky hits can at least force the sub to return to base for repairs



dr.hal -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/4/2013 8:29:37 PM)

One can see them as a sub "picket" much like radar DDs and DEs were air pickets. The allies have them as well, although not by the same name, they DO have value...



Symon -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/4/2013 10:52:18 PM)

Maybe one on these days, Alfred will pull up a thread by Don Bowen, from two years ago, discussing this. There's some ships (Classes) that are used by the AI in special ways to do special things in their local ports. And players can use them that same way too.

Oh, you don't know what those special things are? Oh, too bad! Too, too bad!

Nobody cares about the dinky crap, notwithstanding they play an inportant part in the AI snd should play an equally important part in PBEMs, but they aren't sexy, like cruisers, so people ignore them. And then they wonder wtf??? when something happens that those vesels were designed to deal with. [:D][:D][:D]

Yippee Kai Yay. JWE



Stvitus2002 -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/4/2013 11:55:08 PM)

Interesting opinions. I think i will build them to replace all of these
equally useless PB's. Which i will convert back to AK's. At least when
these Cha's get sunk they will only cost me 1 VP. Could always use the
AK's, as losses have been heavy.


WO 0/0



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 12:12:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0

I think i will build them to replace all of these
equally useless PB's. Which i will convert back to AK's. WO 0/0



Don't do this!

even assuming you are right on the "not so great" capabilities of a PB, to which I disagree; if anything because PBs are numerous and had the range to follow convoys that otherwise will be using your very scarce DD pool
However, their value as AK is nill, too small and fuel ineficient

Remember that PBs at the very least will limit the submarine attacks to one shot-only, (before diving). Otherwise, they will attack repetedly





Chickenboy -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 12:48:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0

Interesting opinions. I think i will build them to replace all of these
equally useless PB's. Which i will convert back to AK's. At least when
these Cha's get sunk they will only cost me 1 VP. Could always use the
AK's, as losses have been heavy.


WO 0/0


Dude...

PBs should be your mainstay in xAKL conversions. Those million Tosa class small ships? Great convoy escorts. Sure, they're no great shakes in ASW, but so much better than nothing.



ny59giants -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 2:07:28 AM)

Even if your Japanese SC and/or PBs don't sink a sub, if they can prevent an AP/AK/AKL from getting hit. Its a win, IMO.



PaxMondo -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 2:28:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Even if your Japanese SC and/or PBs don't sink a sub, if they can prevent an AP/AK/AKL from getting hit. Its a win, IMO.

+1



Mundy -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 2:37:52 AM)

+2  Even the most minimal escort makes a great deal of difference from none at all in my experience.

Ed-



Alfred -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 6:52:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Maybe one on these days, Alfred will pull up a thread by Don Bowen, from two years ago, discussing this. There's some ships (Classes) that are used by the AI in special ways to do special things in their local ports. And players can use them that same way too.

Oh, you don't know what those special things are? Oh, too bad! Too, too bad!

Nobody cares about the dinky crap, notwithstanding they play an inportant part in the AI snd should play an equally important part in PBEMs, but they aren't sexy, like cruisers, so people ignore them. And then they wonder wtf??? when something happens that those vesels were designed to deal with. [:D][:D][:D]

Yippee Kai Yay. JWE



You rangggggg ...... !

I wasn't going to post in this thread because the OP was asking for personal opinions based on actual player praxis, but a plea to Super Hero armed with super search powers (there you go Marvel, how's that for a hint to revive the genre,) ....

Didn't find a post from 2011. I did however find this post from Don Bowen from March 2009.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2055886&mpage=1&key=subchasers�

Now to choose which colour and emblem for my cape. Maybe, for a bit of zanyness, a Venetian Carnevale mask instead of the usual type of mask.

Alfred



Symon -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 6:53:15 PM)

Alfred, I am in awe. Simply, in awe. [&o][&o][&o]
Far as I'm concerned you can put anything you want on your cape and wear any damn mask you please; except if it's in USC colors, those are right out. God made man, man made indoor plumbing and flush toilets, and USC was the result. No self respecting superhero would ever wear USC colors. Heck, they haven't had a decent collegiate sailor in the last 27 years.[;)]
Ciao John



KenchiSulla -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/5/2013 7:06:06 PM)

Nice find, hah



PaxMondo -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/6/2013 3:51:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
...Super Hero armed with super search powers ...

Wow.

[&o][&o][&o]

I remember reading that one, but dang if I could ever find it.

Amazing!!

[&o][&o][&o]



Alfred -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/6/2013 1:27:57 PM)

Back in post #13 above, Symon specifically referred to the AI's use of small vessels. In the the thread I retrieved, Don Bowen didn't actually refer to the AI usuage, so I rather suspect that thread/post was not the one symon actually had in mind.

For Symon's ( and everyone else who cares) I think I have tracked down the exact Don Bowen post Symon had in mind. Look for post #125 on page 5, dated 15 May 2009, from Don Bowen in the following thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2064265&mpage=5&key=hdml�

In that post Don Bowen specifically says what the AI does with the small vessels. Those who are keen to pursue the matter further are well advised to read all 5 pages of the above thread.

I could post a few other relevant threads, but they would not advance the story that much. Although there is a thread from early last year, where Don Bowen and I make several posts regarding usuage of HDMLs. I think that 2012 thread is useful for the distinction I make between "blue" water and "brown" water navies. It seems to me that the fundamental reason why so many players have difficulty finding a use for the small vessels is that they consistently fail to think what a "brown water" navy actually does. Instead they continue to think of a "blue water" navy which is a much more "sexy" thing to play with.

Alfred



Mike Solli -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/6/2013 10:57:30 PM)

Personally, I love the CHa- class. They carry 8 DC racks. On the rare occasion that they use them, they drop a lot of DCs. As others said, I use them in ASW TFs assigned to ports. Great little ships.

I also have >200 PBs. To'su, Kiso and Ansyu-C. They are in ASW TFs or escorting convoys.

Every ship has a use. It may not be as dramatic as a carrier TF, but there's a use out there for every one.



Stvitus2002 -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/7/2013 4:34:17 PM)

quote:

the CHa- class. They carry 8 DC racks.


?? Are you using a custom scenario? My CHa's have only one thrower per side
and 2 stern racks,total=4. They carry only the type 95 charge. They
get a 3/43 upgrade which adds a few MG's.....
Beginning to think it's the scenario data that is different.
Babeslite.


WO 0/0



Symon -> RE: IJN subchasers (2/7/2013 6:57:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0
quote:

the CHa- class. They carry 8 DC racks.

?? Are you using a custom scenario? My CHa's have only one thrower per side
and 2 stern racks,total=4. They carry only the type 95 charge. They
get a 3/43 upgrade which adds a few MG's.....
Beginning to think it's the scenario data that is different.
Babeslite.

WO 0/0

Think Mike might have confused them a skoosh with later war E types. CHa-1 was literally a 100' tuna trawler hull. Some wood, some metal, but tuna boats. They had 4 DCs arranged in-line on the rails (not so much rails as roll-off platforms), port and starboard; and two push rails on the stern (same deal, not rails but rather roll-off platforms). They would drop one DC port, one DC stbd, one each off the stern rails.and then run like hell so their stern wouldn't get blown off by the detonations. So 4 ASW seemed reasonable. They did not even have hydrophones (ok, a few had a crude dipping microphone) so Type 95 DCs seemed reasonable.

These boats, just like similar Allied boats, are there to get the attention of the bad guys and make them want to be somewhere else. The AI uses these, as well as similar Allied boats, as automatic port/base/whatever, defense TFs, if such vessels are present in the port/base/whatever.

As Alfred says, "brown water" navy stuff. Human players may use the paradigm or not. The AI will.

JWE



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