Arty barrage (Full Version)

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thesock -> Arty barrage (2/22/2013 11:41:03 PM)

Is there a way to delay the arty and mortar barrages. Having them available right at the start gives quite an advantage to a map defender against a force that has just entered. The nature of the game means that at the entry point your force is more concentrated than perhaps would be the case in actual war. A 5 minute delay for example would allow time to shake out. It would also allow the tactic of the defender containing the entry force force untill the barrage came on line.



STIENER -> RE: Arty barrage (4/3/2013 3:59:51 AM)

you make a good point "sock "



Pvt_Grunt -> RE: Arty barrage (4/3/2013 11:11:49 AM)

Air strikes are usually delayed, arent they?



SteveMcClaire -> RE: Arty barrage (4/3/2013 5:17:20 PM)

You cannot change the 'available time' for air, artillery, or mortar support via game options or making a mod. It's something we can look at for future updates, though. Thanks for your feedback.

Steve



Kanov -> RE: Arty barrage (4/4/2013 5:35:17 PM)

Yes I agree, it would be nice if it could be randomized between 2-10min into the battle to give room for the attacker to make a move.



Manu -> RE: Arty barrage (4/4/2013 6:32:38 PM)

I agree! Good suggestion!



Cathartes -> RE: Arty barrage (4/5/2013 12:43:10 AM)

agree!



davidss -> RE: Arty barrage (4/5/2013 9:19:00 PM)

In my opinion, it would be best to have heavy barrage available for:

1.Attacking BG, as soon as the battle starts ... but with a 2 minute countdown timer. Then the attacking player would need to decide where the heavy barrage will land within a short period of time ... and if timer expires before the barrage is used, then it can't be used during the remainder of the battle.
I think this is how many WW2 heavy artillery was used ... first the barrage at a specific location, then the attacking units advanced. I've read that the German's used this predictability to their advantage, by placing more valuable assets (tanks) further back ... and then moving them forward after the Allied barrage hit and the location of Allied penetration was determined.
This may help CC too ... so that map defenders may want to place units a little further back until timer has expired ... to minimize losses. This would also allow attacking force time to shake out of the deployment zone without being zeroed in on (with too many predetermined lines of fire)  ... at the start of a battle.

2.And map Defender ... the heavy barrage would become available after a few minutes. This simulates the time to communicate and organize, and allows attacker time to shake out of deployment area.

So, in other words, two methods of timing the heavy barrage ... one method for the Attacker and another for the Player Defending. 



rmdesantis -> RE: Arty barrage (4/6/2013 3:49:52 PM)

I would like to keep the barrage timing just as it is right now. If you want to make it optional, fine, but I would not want to hardcode delays into the situation. If a player has taken the time to provide support to a unit, then that support should be available at whatever time the player wants, regardless if attacking or defending.



Kanov -> RE: Arty barrage (4/6/2013 8:53:11 PM)

I think davidss has it right, Delay it for the defender, have it right away for the attacker. I like the idea of a countdown timer for the attacker too but I don't know if it will be balanced.

My reasoning being the defender doesn't know the exact time the enemy will attack so the fire mission although assigned to the unit is not 100% ready because it needs to communicate coordinates and actual enemy area of attack. Or have pre-defined area of attack for the defender but if you wish to relocate in-battle then it gets delayed, like mortars.



STIENER -> RE: Arty barrage (4/8/2013 7:25:16 PM)

i think were losing site of the socks original intent in the post. the deploy area on most maps is fairly small, and the opponents arty barrage is devistating in such a small area. all we would like to see, without making it ridiculously complex, is for the arty barrage to be delayed...3,4...5 mins? for the attacker to be able to shake out his densely packed forces a bit, so he doesnst get wiped out by the arty barrage.
nothing else needs to change per say.

this is reminisent of WAR, where the germans would get wiped out trying to come on to a map in the open against the yank arty and tank fire.



Kanov -> RE: Arty barrage (4/8/2013 7:46:11 PM)

But what about the attacker? does he deserves to get his arty barrage delayed too?



STIENER -> RE: Arty barrage (4/8/2013 8:20:45 PM)

the attacker doesnt have to have his arty delayed. the issue here is playability and getting most of your force wiped out before it can fan out and deploy out of the small danger / deploy zone.

you can look at it a couple of different ways....
the attacker has surprised the defender some what in his attack and the defender now [ as davidss suggests] has to take 3 or 4 mins to arrange his barrage. [ think of this in a broader scope of things...yes i know you know he is going to deploy in that area on the map....but...]

the attacker knows where he is going to attack and has already arranged to have a barrage ready to be called in on short notice.



Tejszd -> RE: Arty barrage (4/9/2013 1:26:52 AM)

The attacker should get support right away while defender would have to react thus there should be a delay. The delay to defender though would not be much as determining defensive fire location/ranges would be a priority when setting up a defensive line.



Cathartes -> RE: Arty barrage (4/11/2013 4:39:40 PM)

Wish List:
More complex arty support: rolling barrages, larger barrage target areas (more dispersed), use of multiple fire orders, random, errant shells outside of barrage area



nietsche -> RE: Arty barrage (4/15/2013 4:10:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: davidss

In my opinion, it would be best to have heavy barrage available for:

1.Attacking BG, as soon as the battle starts ... but with a 2 minute countdown timer. Then the attacking player would need to decide where the heavy barrage will land within a short period of time ... and if timer expires before the barrage is used, then it can't be used during the remainder of the battle.
I think this is how many WW2 heavy artillery was used ... first the barrage at a specific location, then the attacking units advanced. I've read that the German's used this predictability to their advantage, by placing more valuable assets (tanks) further back ... and then moving them forward after the Allied barrage hit and the location of Allied penetration was determined.
This may help CC too ... so that map defenders may want to place units a little further back until timer has expired ... to minimize losses. This would also allow attacking force time to shake out of the deployment zone without being zeroed in on (with too many predetermined lines of fire)  ... at the start of a battle.

2.And map Defender ... the heavy barrage would become available after a few minutes. This simulates the time to communicate and organize, and allows attacker time to shake out of deployment area.

So, in other words, two methods of timing the heavy barrage ... one method for the Attacker and another for the Player Defending. 

Good sense in that David. Maybe the attacker could have a 50% chance of getting the barrage again from half way to the end of the allocated time - this is also another touch of realism since you "booked in" a barrage as part of an attack/battle plan and then if you did not use it you had to compete with other commanders' priorities.



nietsche -> RE: Arty barrage (4/15/2013 4:13:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

Wish List:
More complex arty support: rolling barrages, larger barrage target areas (more dispersed), use of multiple fire orders, random, errant shells outside of barrage area

All good ideas too.



nietsche -> RE: Arty barrage (4/15/2013 4:21:01 AM)

Let's not forget that we still have the problem with very narrow and shallow deployment zones. Widening the deployment zone and making it more irregular seems to make more sense. Not many commanders who survived to fight second and third battles concentrated an attack in a narrow zone, inviting a pincer movement and artillery bombardment. Even if there was a neutral zone around the entry it would allow a more rapid fan out. Most advances were done on a broad front rather than narrow. It might even be possible to look into what units on adjacent strategic maps are doing and give a broader deployment zone to units advancing in unison.

Theory sounds good but not sure if it can be implemented.



thesock -> RE: Arty barrage (7/17/2013 9:34:09 PM)

Done a gentleman's agreement, on the attacker first entering a new map, he is allowed to use mortar and arty fire support immediately. The defender has to waite 5 minutes before using his. This replicates a surprise attack. Two other agreements we use are that, you can only setup in an area that is connected to a victory location by full width squares. No diamond necklace connections allowed. And you can't deploy across a river unless you hold the bridge, and then you can only deploy in full squares connected to the bridge. Works well.
Don't much like the scanty hedges in the game, so changed the aps so you only see over the hedge when next to it, and made it so the tracked vehicles take ages to cross a hedge. Not something you would want to try under fire. Makes it much more like the bocage.



Turre -> RE: Arty barrage (8/25/2013 1:10:12 PM)

Delay to get off-map support assets available is not the only issue.

When you order a barrage on a target the grenades start to fall down way too soon.
Why so? I explain:
1. Forward Observer, Officer or any competent soldier must locate the target.
2. He must call for fire mission.
3. Indirect fire units must calculate the firing data and aim their guns.
4. Fired rounds have time of flight before they hit the target. (Mortars ca. 1/2 minute, Artillery up to few minutes depending the range)

In order to simulate the process it should take like 2 to 3 minutes from the moment you place the barrage before shells start coming down.

Question to Slitherine and Matrix Games production team:
Is it possible to adjust the time from ordering a barrage until it actually starts?



Af1352pasha -> RE: Arty barrage (8/25/2013 1:43:31 PM)

Best way is forward observer team. each team can be representative of a gun battery or battalion. Then with such team you can adjust the fire mission rounds and time.

In some mods for the longest day such as bloody omaha this team is available.



SteveMcClaire -> RE: Arty barrage (8/27/2013 5:30:51 PM)

You cannot mod the delay time for off-map support.

The off-board support in Close Combat is more responsive and more accurate than in reality, but the pace of the game is also much faster than real military units can operate as well. Everything happens much, much faster in the game. Ordering a platoon attack and getting it organized would also take at least a few minutes in real life, but in the game you can do it in seconds. So the time delay for fire support needs to be a bit shorter to account for this.

Steve



Stwa -> RE: Arty barrage (9/6/2013 12:24:29 AM)

I second what Steve said about the timings (organizing attacks, ON-CALL SUPPORT), etc.

Here is how it is handled in CCMT.

The first number is the total number of strikes/barrages that are AVAILABLE in the battle. Each side (ARMY/OPFOR) has its own set of values.

The second number is the total minutes from the start of the battle that must elapse before any barrage or stirke may commense.



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