spw@w and spww2 ver 3.0 (Full Version)

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Colonel Klink -> spw@w and spww2 ver 3.0 (4/9/2000 4:40:00 PM)

will there still be a ver 3.0 released version of spww2. what are the main differences between the two games (spw@w and spww2 ver 3.0) can u verify that spw@w can be played using the sp2 CD. thanks a bunch. u guys are gr8. [img]http://www.phobe.com/klinklog.jpg[/img] http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/2545/sounds/incharge.wav [This message has been edited by Colonel Klink (edited 04-09-2000).] [Note: This message has been edited by Paul Vebber]



Wild Bill -> (4/9/2000 10:24:00 PM)

Well, I see Klink and Schultz are alive and well (LOL)! Thanks! There are differences. That is for sure. Its hard to say in detail, Colonel, because I don't have access to what is being done currently to SPWW2. That has now become the sole project of the SP-Camo Workshop. I can say a little, however, about the improvements and new features in SPWAW. I am sure my colleagues here at Matrix will add to what I have to say and that is as it should be. I'll approach it from a scenario design point of view since that is where my primary interest lies. 1. There are now 1,000 slots for scenarios, instead of the old 200 that cramped our style and made us constantly switch scenarios back and forth. This in itself is a great tool. I think SPWW2 has this also. 2. The map editor for the first time is very user friendly and easy to understand. New terrain, already in place includes - -Over 60 new buildings, stone, wood and multihex. Give a great variety to the map. -hedges, bocage (hedgerows), gullies (which make great anti-tank obstacles with some dragon teeth added), orchards, vineyards which are really a third type of farmland), a much improved rice paddy that no longer glares at you, walls, a greater variety of trees, mud (a much needed feature), trails, and more. -The ability to change sides on the map if you don't like where the game places one naationality. -Saving maps and scenarios without having to type in the names each time you do so. -Different levels of water, from shallow to deep (infantry and vehicles can now traverse shallow water, with the appropriate penalties. Now you can do a scenario on Tarawa and the walk in from the reef. Oh, and reefs too are included. -five different bases on which to place your buildings from transparent to sandstone. 3. The units are very detailed and quite accurate. They include much improved OOBs, more accurate than before. The graphics are stunning. They include infantry with bayonets fixed on some weapons, a prone LMG soldier (if the squad has one)various size guns and howitzers instead of one standard icon for all artillery. The tanks and AFVs are modelled to perfection. You'll love these. There are a number of vehicles you've not seen before. And then you'll find probably the widest assortment of aircraft and armaments for them in any SP game. The tank values have been modified according to strict historical guidelines. Paul V can speak more to this than I. The AI has undergone some changes but our programmer, Michael Wood can say more about this in detail. Of course, there is new music, new pictures (lbms) and you'll just have to hear the sounds to believe them. They include the working of the bolt on a bolt action rifle, the ching of an empty clip being ejected on the M1 rifle, great MG sounds that properly correspond to the weaponry. Scott Grasse has been working on that. And one of the key features that makes this game so durable is the fact that it is a Windows game. No more dealing with DOS, or the fear that the removal of DOS will mean the end of Steel Panthers. Not with this game! We'll cover the period initially from 1930-1949. All of the major and most of the minor participants are included. And there is so much more. I'll be writing a book here before long. Oh, and a new manual that is done by a professional writer. And it shows! Look for new screenshots and a new update on the game on the SPWAW page here at Matrix soon. Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



troopie -> (4/10/2000 7:19:00 AM)

I noticed that SPW@W will have units from 1930 to 1949. Will the calender run from 1910 like SPWW2 so we can use the OOB editor to make Balkan War, WW1 battles and so on? troopie



Paul Vebber -> (4/10/2000 9:08:00 AM)

The calender runs 1930 to 1949. We don't plan on taking the system back prior to that. The SP:The Nam game will cover the period from 1945 to 75. We may do the 75 - near future after that, but it depends on our other projects. It will likely be a while before we get to that (if at all) as it requires some fairly significant modifications form SP:WaW to make similar stepd forward. SP2 and SP3 will work to use any of these improved versions. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 04-09-2000).]



Scarhead -> (4/10/2000 4:12:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: 2. The map editor for the first time is very user friendly and easy to understand. New terrain, already in place includes - -hedges, bocage (hedgerows), gullies (which make great anti-tank obstacles with some dragon teeth added), orchards, vineyards which are really a third type of farmland), a much improved rice paddy that no longer glares at you, walls, a greater variety of trees, mud (a much needed feature), trails, and more.
Great to have vinyards. Was home at the weekend and considered a few things while walking thru the vinyards and woods. a) You won't pass that woods with tanks, except on the existing roads. Should you try to drive thru the woods, you would have to fall the trees - and hurt any infantry nearby. b) German (and IIRC French are the same) vinyards are impassable for any light vehicles. Rows of vinetrees are approx 1 m wide, and the trees in a row are all connected by wire, with several posts crammed int the eart every few metres. Does the game reflect this? Can we get impassable woods&vinyards? Scarhead



Harry -> (4/10/2000 6:09:00 PM)

Hi! Oh yes, make woods impassable for tanks! Maybe there is light wood and bushes that are passable, and heavy wood that are impassabel for tanks. Or simply increase the probability to become immobilized if moving in wood hexes without a road. Then the player itself avoid moving tanks in woods! Harry



Larry Holt -> (4/10/2000 8:33:00 PM)

Great new terrain! Will there be barbed wire? While dragon's teeth stops tanks, we need barbed wire for infantry! Will engineers or other units be able to lay (surface laid, I assume) mines during the game? What can you tell us about digging in during the game? I could scoop out a shallow hole [AKA grave [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ] very quickly when someone was shooting at me but in SP all soldiers seem to have left their entrenching tools at home.



Paul Vebber -> (4/10/2000 9:28:00 PM)

You can underlay rough terrain, or worse, mud under a woods and vehicles will find it tough going (or get stuck). Wire is available, and engineer units can lay mines as well as clear them. Takes a while though. We use SP3's "advance" and "defend" stances. If you go to "defend" stance then you are "immobile" but each turn you have a chance of becoming "dug - in" meaning you are spending time not just scooping dirt, but in teh case of vehicles, finding the "best spot" within the hex. Engineers speed the process, whether you look on it as having better shovels, or being trained to have a better eye for defensive positioning and use of terrain. So the player that does a good reconnaisance and supports his advance with overwatching units "dug-in" on hills, and leapfrogging 4 or 5 times across the board will do well:-) But be careful about reverse slope defenses when you take those hills! If you crest a hill and the enemy has AT weapons close by on the other side - you may take one through the floor :-) More on the details of the other terrain types later...break over :-) [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 04-10-2000).]



Wild Bill -> (4/11/2000 6:08:00 AM)

Larry, look at insert 008 in the upper left hand corner (in the screenshots section, dated 4-10-00) and you'll see the barbed wire. Then there are AT ditches to the bottom right corner. Currently trees don't stop tanks, but that is a good fix for a patch, same for vineyards or orchards perhaps. We'll put that on the list. Thanks, guys... WB ------------------ Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Paul Vebber -> (4/11/2000 8:32:00 AM)

I turned off Klinks .wav to help someone troubleshoot why they couldn't access this thread. I am not censoring anyone, or being mean and evil. Just trying to help. IF its not the cause, I will turn it back on...we do have a sense of humor :-)



Big.Toe -> (4/11/2000 9:59:00 AM)

Ah, I can finally read this thread! Looking forward the the release of SP:WAW! I posted this in another thread, but I'm gonna ask again any way. Will the tanks have camo paint? Like the camo you can download for SP2 & 3?



Wild Bill -> (4/11/2000 10:10:00 AM)

I responded to you in the other section, Big Toe. YOu must not have checked (G). Some do, some don't. Too late for that kind of change on this version. We'll take a vote for any future patches of the game (and I am sure there will be a patch or two)...Wild Bill ------------------ Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Harry -> (4/11/2000 1:38:00 PM)

Hi! Itīs good to hear that mud terrain will be available. I wonder what benefits the russians have during games set in the winter. I found non. So here are my suggestions not only regarding the russians. 1. Dud ammunition. At random times shells donīt explode dependend on some probability. I think of all kinds of HE-Shells being fired. (Bombs?, Mines?, HEAT?...) 2. Random failures of gun jammes, suspension failures and maybe turret rotation is broken a.s.o. all dependend on some probability. And this is the point where "General Winter" can attack. Letīs increase this probabilities for german equippment during winter games. Maybe different at different times of the war. How is the lower groundpressure of eg. the T34 modeled during mud/winter games? Ok,ok itīs a tactical game, but a wound spot of the Tiger was itīs bad suspension. It often brokes. Harry



Paul Vebber -> (4/11/2000 8:21:00 PM)

Hi Harry! 1.Essentially no dud HE in AP mode, but about 10% of HE and HEAT rounds "fail" vs vehicles and have penetration drastically reduced (ie the shell hits, but no boom). AP rounds can shatter on impact (at low angles) or ricochet (all called ricochets) A 122mm vs a HT will have a VERY small chance ofricochet because of the T/D ratio, small caliber weapons against heavy armor have to get lucky not too. 2. Equipment damage can occur during combat, but and vehicles can become immobilized in certain terain (like swap, streams and mud) but there are no "random breakdowns". We have not given the Russians any "winter advantage". They have their normal propensity for "fanatical defense" - ie in defend situations they can spontaneously rally in certan situations. Right now you have to "manually" give teh germans a morale penalty if you want to show the effects of the first winter. Ground pressure variation or vehicle specific mechanical reliability problems or "critical" vulnerabilities are not modeled. With only the standard SP hit locations, the slope and armor are used to represent the predominant plates on a facing, with a few weighting factors included for things like round surfaces, poor quality armor, and shot traps. This turned out to be more subjective than we would have liked, but so far the playtest response has been overwhelming that tank combat is greatly improved.



kkrull -> (4/12/2000 12:43:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: This turned out to be more subjective than we would have liked, but so far the playtest response has been overwhelming that tank combat is greatly improved.
Besides better graphics and more realism such as throwing smoke only one hex and having small arms fire less supppressive vs armor, what has changed for the infantry? Compared to SP-I, that is, which is my frame of reference. For example, will HE values be closer to SP-I OBs or Scott Grasse's OB's? Thanks!



Paul Vebber -> (4/12/2000 11:57:00 PM)

Scott has been involved in this project since the start, so part of the answer is yes. But because we could change the code as well as edit the OOB files the changes are far more profound. The difference between moving and statioary is profound. A squad moving full movement that gets hit by an MG will get decimated. Move one hex however and it will not be so bad. Go to "defend" status and get "dug-in" and it gets tough to kill troops. Entrenched troops at scenario start are REALLY tough... We have tried to expand the scope of terrain effects also, Move over open ground, especially quickly, and you better hope you don't get targeted by mortor fire! Rough terrain is almost "instant entrenchments" Experience also playes a bigger role. Good troops will suffer fewer casualties in the same situation than poor troops. Supression is more random as well with many instances of "add x suppression" changed to "add random between x and y". This plays with "national characteristics" as well. British troops tend to be "cooler under fire", US troops skittery retreating quicker, but rally back faster, Russians can put up a "fanatical defense" and suddenly rally from retreat or routed status, Japanese and marines don't surrender and Japanese retreat threshold is VERY high. Germans are pretty much the "baseline". While not as extensive as the tank combat overhaul (which was cut it out and replace nearly the whole she-bang) Infantry combat has been significantly improved.



Wild Bill -> (4/13/2000 12:30:00 AM)

I personally like very much the effects of small arms fire, including small mortars. Example: In SP1, 60 mortars were ineffective. In SP2 and 3 they became very lethal. In this one they are what they should be. MGs have a nice balance. I've always felt the machine gun was the underrated weapon in Steel Panthers. Not so anymore. It can cut a swath in advancing infantry. It is something to be feared as it was on the real battlefield...WB ------------------ Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Harry -> (4/13/2000 1:37:00 PM)

Hi! What about game balancing? I can remember games of Sniper-Army, MG-Army and AT-Team-Army very frustrating and boring. How can it prevented that someone buys eg. 100 Snipers? Letīs make the Sniper so costly, that the player not considering to buy more than one or two. And now like WB said above that the MGs now have to be feared its price must also high enough, so the player buyes infantry squads rather than MG-Teams. Another workaround could be that you cannot buy single MG-Teams. You can buy them only in connection with infantry squads. An Infantry formation can then have eg. 4 Inf Sqauds+ 1 MG-Team. This works also with "infantry-sniper"- and "infantry-AT-Team"-formations. You can still buy pure infantry formations. This can be scaled anymore. The player is only allowed to buy "real"- formations, but this could be too restrictive. I donīt know. So tell me your gametesting results. Harry [This message has been edited by Harry (edited 04-13-2000).]



O de B -> (4/13/2000 4:51:00 PM)

Hi Speaking of experience, i remember a fun SP1 scenario between advancing UK/US and tigers with heroes (Wittman if i remember well). This unit had been given something like 200 experience points, that allowed him to fire an amazing 12-13 shots per turn. But that was far beyond the normal experience allowed in campaign games since units could not gain more than 140 XP. So i have 2 questions : 1- Will units with more experience still gain more shots/stats ?. 2- Will elite units be allowed to gain more than 140 XP (well, it may be rare since the AI is said to have improved a lot, but then, if you manage to keep some elite alive, are they still blocked to this limit ? It could be fun having 1-3 national heroes in one's core) Thanks.



Paul Vebber -> (4/13/2000 7:30:00 PM)

Points are intended as a general guide to how well the units perform. There will always be "best bang for your buck" players that will find bizarre combinations of troops that work well in the "game world". There is just no way to avoid that except to limit players to a list of Historical formations. th egame is not set up to do that. So the best thing is to agree before hand to limits, and know a little about your opponent. If you like using historical formations, make sure your opponent is not a "best bang for the buck" player, Agree before handto general formations. What I found works well is for one player to propose a general force: Two tank Companies, a Mech Inf CO and two leg Companies supported by 2 medium Off-board batteries. Figure the cost of such a force at 70 experience and add about 15% for minor variations. The other player takes the force and points and counters with the force and similar 15% added point cost that he thinks he can win with. Then the original player picks which force he wants. I've found this works pretty well in keeping the forces faily hiostorical, allows for a few surprises, and keeps the forces pretty even.



Paul Vebber -> (4/13/2000 7:35:00 PM)

To be honest I have not had the time to do much long camaign play...I know several playtesters have. I am pretty sure the limit is 140. Units experience affects a great many things, form how many shots it has, to its OPfire, to its casualty rate and ability to "stay with" a damaged vehicle. Hit chances, spotting chances, chance of being spotted, etc all use exp as one of the key inputs. Once you get above 120 you are really dealing with "supermen". Someone is redoing a Wittman scenario I believe for SP:WaW :-) Campaing players will also want to keep a finger on the "F9" key..."bail out". No more shooting at your own tanks to get that favorite elite crew to bail from an imobilized vehicle :-)



Harry -> (4/17/2000 1:31:00 PM)

Thanks Paul for your answers! But I have more questions or ideas: 1. Sorry, but the "Bail-Out"-Option I have never missed, what I have missed is the reverse gear! Consider this situation: You are driving your tank and suddenly AT opportunity fire occurs. Now you decide itīs better to get out of this place and hide your tank behind a house. Two ways to go. First if you have smoke-discarger, pop smoke and hide behind a house. But what if you havenīt got smoke. You have to drive the tank back and then behind the house. But the SP-Engine do now something naughty. It turns the tank 180 degrees. Then move it one hex. When the tank enter the new hex, op-fire may occur, hitting the tank at his woundest spot, the rear! If he drives revers, he may have survived this, because of its front armour. My suggestion: You can drive revers at 2x or 3x or 4x movement costs. Or restrict this to one or two hexes per turn. To change the gear press F8. :-) 2. An time consumting procedure is to shift artillery. I think a better solution is this: Plot your "hot-spots" in the deployment phase. Then if you want to fire artillery, plot them where you want them. The game automaticaly calculates the delay depending on the hot-spots. No more click-orgy! This should be fine tuned on previous plotted artillery, aso. 3. I wonder how the defence bonus for the russians work : You wrote: ".... They have their normal propensity for "fanatical defense" - ie in defend situations they can spontaneously rally in certan situations. ..." Do you mean assault-defence games (very unlikely played) or do you mean SP3 defence stance( this would be very good)? 4. How do we achieve hull-down status. Is this a combination of defence stance(find the best spot for vehicles) + terrain? The "dug in" message can then be taken as "hull down" message. Or something else? 5. Can maps be greater than large SP3 maps? Harry [This message has been edited by Harry (edited 04-17-2000).]



chemninzt -> (4/17/2000 10:46:00 PM)

Hello to all here at spw@w. This is my first message here. I recently found out about spw@w in development. I thought to myself—“ Awesome! I have been waiting for something like this for a long time now!” I am an sp3 enthusiast, and have been playing it for about 2 years. But I wanted to respond to Harry's point about the hull down status of tanks, because it has seemed to me from playing sp3 that, the game basically ignores hull down in some (and possibly all) situations. The sp3 game manual makes reference to achieving hull down status, yet it seems like several possible situations for hull down status are over looked in sp3. I could be wrong about it--so I am curious to hear all you veterans’ opinions--but Number 1, it seems that tanks firing from X lower elevation to Y higher elevation are firing at, hull down units, given that Y equates to a certain ratio to X. Despite the fact that the particularities of terrain such as each little bump and hillock is not modeled, in sp3 and that hull down status is dependent entirely on an angular equation of Tank A to Tank B, how will this be dealt with in spw@w? The second situation I would mention is when a Tank is firing from behind a stone wall or other obstruction at a tank on or lower than it’s current level. Since stone walls are a new addition to spw@w, will tanks be given any hull down advantage for being protected by them, and if so will tanks firing from higher terrain levels at tanks behind stone walls be distinguished from tanks firing at the same or lower terrain levels at tanks behind stone walls?



Paul Vebber -> (4/18/2000 5:01:00 AM)

quote:

Sorry, but the "Bail-Out"-Option I have never missed, what I have missed is the reverse gear!
Nope, no reverse gear. Our reasons are several - First, the game is not meant to be "tank driving". Get Combat mission if you want fine detail control of every tank;-) Second, there is little indication that real tankers use reverse in the ways players would use it - especially when buttoned and its impossible to see well to the rear. Third, if you use the terrain properly, you can duck back behind cover without exposing yourself to rear opfire. Fourth the new angle effects make horizonatal angles more realistic, so youare not as vulnerable as before making a slight retrograde. We may add a limited option later, but with rare exceptions, tanks didn't go more than a few 10s of yards in reverse - often that had disasterous effect. A risk of immobilization would be high if you tried it.
quote:

2. An time consumting procedure is to shift artillery. I think a better solution is this: Plot your "hot-spots" in the deployment phase. Then if you want to fire artillery, plot them where you want them. The game automaticaly calculates the delay depending on the hot-spots. No more click-orgy! This should be fine tuned on previous plotted artillery, aso.
This one we are stuck with. We have grouped OBA into section or battery sized units so the number of spots to move is lower. Its a pain but one we could not easily fix. More later...



Paul Vebber -> (4/18/2000 9:34:00 AM)

quote:

I wonder how the defence bonus for the russians work : You wrote: ".... They have their normal propensity for "fanatical defense" - ie in defend situations they can spontaneously rally in certan situations. ..." Do you mean assault-defence games (very unlikely played) or do you mean SP3 defence stance( this would be very good)?
As these are "stereotypes" as much as "characteristics" meant to give some flavor, we look on the root of russian defensive tenacity as a function of the operational, rather than tactical defence. Thus the benefit is based on scenario type, not tactical stance. I strongly disagree that the only thing folks will play in SP:WaW is meeting engagements. Long Campaign players will have a wide variety of scenario types to deal with! Wild Bill's Raiders are hard at work on scenarios that feature the full range from amphibious assaults to river crossings. The defend stance to us is a "transition phase" from actively advancing - to being "dug-in" or achieving an improved position, whether it be from actually taking spade to dirt, or through clearing fields of fire, surveying likely approach lanes, and using the "micro-terrain" with in the hex to best advantage. Engineers keen eye for defensive works, speeds the process for adjacent units. But a Russian taking cover in the rubble of Berlin, will not get the extra benefits for fanaticism that he received defending the gates of Moscow...
quote:

4. How do we achieve hull-down status. Is this a combination of defence stance(find the best spot for vehicles) + terrain? The "dug in" message can then be taken as "hull down" message. Or something else?
"Dug-in" status is the result of several turns of of preperations (in defend stance) and "in hex" movement of various sorts that result in a unit having several combat advantages. In terrain types like woods, wall, bocage, orchard, building rough and on hilltops to lower units, a vehicle that is "dug in" is also "hull down". Hull down has the effect of mitigating some hits all together, reducing the size for hit calculation to 1/4 the normal and allowing only turret hits to anything that is not artillery bombardment or a mortar. Agian we are looking "general effects" and not modeling specifcs so a tank "dug-in" in a wall hex, is not limited to a specific "hexside" but assumped to be moving among several potential cover "sweet spots" within a hex. This is as much a game sytem limtiation we have to work around as anything, but in the "big picture" the results work out well. We are assuming abit more abstraction in terrain - but allow lots of units to be moved quicky - you can even turn them over to computer control now and they will go to there obectives in some semblence of order :-) [QUOTE]5. Can maps be greater than large SP3 maps?[/QUOTE} Nope, the 100x80 hex limit is still in force. THat is a pretty big area by WW2 standards though. You can fudge it a littel and assume teh hex is as big as 75m if you turn hitting down 25% or so and infantry toughness up by 20-30 points. You can assume movement rates scale with time a bit. Same with smaller scales, up the hit chances 30% and make infantry 20-30% more vulnerable and you can go done to about 30 m per hex on your map. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 04-17-2000).] [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 04-17-2000).] [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited 04-18-2000).]



Harry -> (4/25/2000 6:49:00 PM)

Thanks again Paul! But Iīm not empty yet! 1. The "Bail Out" Option: Will the following trick work? Tell your guncrew to leave, move them to a secure place, then return when the bombardment is over. The gun still works! In other words: Is it possible to damage guns and vehicles if the crew has left? 2. Debriefing: Iīm sometimes confused of the result of a battle, when it comes to points. I have a hard time to figure out why he getīs so much points. My wish is a more detailed explaination of points like that: German losses: Tanks 430 Points x 2.0 (Modifier) = 860 P Infantry 200 p x 2.0 = 400 p Artillery 230 p x 2.0 = 460 p Trucks/APCs 300 p x 2.0 = 600 p aso. Total: 2320 Points The same for the other side. Harry



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