Demo and race-like scenarios (Full Version)

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Mobeer -> Demo and race-like scenarios (4/5/2013 10:43:43 PM)

I'm trying out the demo. It generally looks good, but the scenarios in the demo are something on a race to the objectives over only 6 or 7 turns. Is this typical of the real game, or an artificial restriction within the demo (i.e. the real game would allow 10-12 turns for a similar setup)?



chemkid -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (4/6/2013 2:45:57 PM)

.



DerTroof -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (4/8/2013 9:30:09 PM)

And some players think the short scenarios encourage gamey, unrealistic tactics that undermine an otherwise innovative and attractive game system. Including me.



Mobeer -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (4/8/2013 10:57:17 PM)

Thanks guys



jjdenver -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (4/18/2013 2:26:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DerTroof
And some players think the short scenarios encourage gamey, unrealistic tactics that undermine an otherwise innovative and attractive game system. Including me.


Yes, this is just about the only problem that I see with the game, but it's a huge problem imo.

However, having said that I still think the game is worth getting because it does so much so well.

Still, it could be so much more if the scenario design team would eschew the silly short scenario, tight timeline, puzzle-like scenario design goal. This is why I stopped playing Panzer General remakes. Let's hope the next expansion feels more like an operational game and sees more room for maneuver and variation...not more puzzle-chess. :)



gdrover -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (4/24/2013 1:00:14 AM)

Agree completely!
This is a great system that screams out for a larger scenario.

A longer, larger scale scenario would allow the player to really build up his forces with special add-ons, go after truly strategic goals, and fight a longer, more satisfying battle. (My suggestion would be Army Group South from June 1941 through 1944...followed by the other two later)

Granted, this may require a more sophisticated AI, but the extra work would lead to a much stronger end-product with a devoted following.



DerTroof -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (4/29/2013 9:52:44 PM)

jjdenver and gdrover, completely agree. I hate to criticize this game because there's so much to like. The design is innovative and accessible, but leaves room for deep thinking. The interface is fluid, and the grim map tones and ominous music suit the subject beautifully. I think the unit sprites are well done (no I don't mind the "bobbleheads") and convey a lot of information compactly (although maybe there should be a NATO symbols option for the grognards). The manual is attractive, full of visual examples, concise yet comprehensive, and well-organized. This is clearly the work of a talented team.

The emphasis on logistics is well-suited to the theatre and executed wonderfully. I also like how theatre assets and specialist steps are handled, abstractly, yet in a way that enhances realism. Just brilliant. As I said, a lot of depth for an accessible game design.

But the scenarios as designed have pretty much made this unplayable for me. [:(] Essentially, to obtain decisive victories the player must be willing to send his most valuable mobile units on unsupported forays to seize objectives under an arbitrary deadline. Conversely, the AI will sacrifice its own prize units to disrupt supply long enough to prevent the player from achieving a decisive. In a real campaign, such tactics would be disastrous, as these units would be quickly cut off. Yes, this happened on the Eastern Front, and almost always resulted in encirclement and annihilation - not decisive victories! Encouraging players to use these tactics to win the game contradicts the lessons of history. In the end, it makes the game a puzzle, not the fascinating playable simulation it could be.

The good news is this problem is easily rectified. Longer scenarios with scheduled reinforcements and less rigid objectives timetables would give players more options and allow the system to really shine. The system is obviously well-suited to campaigns where logistics play a key role. In addition to Russian campaigns, I would like to see ones for North Africa, Italy, and maybe Burma. I would de-emphasize the use of Panzer Corps-style prestige, perhaps link prestige points to the number of specialist steps available, but not the larger units themselves.

Here's another thread on the same topic, although I don't agree with some of the posters here regarding the need for stacking (I can live with a game that doesn't allow stacking). But the points about the scenario design encouraging ahistorical, gamy tactics are spot on, imo.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3123808



Sabre Man -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/6/2013 11:05:11 PM)

In the campaigns, do units carry over to the next scenario?



ComradeP -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/10/2013 1:46:55 PM)

Not as a core, but you might encounter the same units again (possibly with a different strength) in the next scenario if they were there historically.



Moltke71 -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/10/2013 2:21:25 PM)

Check out my Black Turn review. I think some of the issues have been addressed.

http://wargamer.com/article/3485/pc-game-review-unity-of-command-black-turn



ComradeP -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/10/2013 3:25:02 PM)

Thanks for the kind words in the review Bismarck.

One thing that might've needed to be explained more clearly is that the scale of the Soviet units has actually been moved down to divisional mostly as well, to allow the Soviets to cover their entire frontline most of the time. Due to that, individual Soviet units are somewhat weaker in steps than their UoC/Red Turn counterparts, but there are more of them.

The decrease in unit scale for the Soviets makes sure some of the problems in Red Turn's later scenarios, which were too easy due to a lack of German units after the initial turns, are much less likely to appear.

There are some "corps" units to represent a concentration of remnants of a Rifle corps into a single unit or a genuine Rifle/cavalry corps of 2-3 divisions. Tank and motorized rifle divisions are always represented individually.



Richie61 -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/10/2013 4:01:12 PM)

This is a great series and I highly enjoy playing UOC! I have the Decisive Campaigns Blue series (which is a great title), but UOC lets me jump in and give the Soviets hell!

You can't beat the price and the design team have been awesome!



PKH -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/10/2013 6:35:44 PM)

The review says you can only move the map with the arrow keys, but you can also drag it around with left mouse button.




pzgndr -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/11/2013 2:33:31 PM)

I played the new AGN and AGC scenarios and enjoyed them. I need to reread the rules again since it's been a while. One thing I note is there is a new 1.05 patch available but it hasn't been discussed much. Besides the bug fixes, there are some other adjustments. Any word on how these affect the earlier scenarios, for better or what?



ComradeP -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/12/2013 12:58:48 PM)

I think the patch just moves the base game up to Black Turn level.



gradenko2k -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/16/2013 12:52:58 AM)

The race/puzzle like quality of the scenarios only really rears its ugly head if you're pursuing the Brilliant victories. If you find that you're not enjoying the game as much, I would really recommend that you stop aiming for the BVs and just playing the game organically, especially since BVs are not (as far as I know) representative of historical performance anyway.



ComradeP -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/16/2013 5:19:50 AM)

Actually, in most cases BV's are modelled after the historical performance. In some cases, you already have 1 or even 2 additional turns to do what your historical counterparts achieved, as some of the more spectacular rates of advance can't be reproduced accurately.



Toby42 -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/16/2013 1:13:53 PM)

The biggest problem that I have with the game is the AI will sacrifice all of it's forces to cut your supply lines. Not very historical at all! I've played games where both sides were out of supply, and no one can attack. AI wins!



Sabre Man -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/16/2013 3:43:37 PM)

What difference does it make whether you achieve a brilliant victory or not?



ComradeP -> RE: Demo and race-like scenarios (12/16/2013 5:50:46 PM)

None, basically, in most cases. Some scenarios become more difficult over time.

-

Treale: I've only seen that behaviour in a handful of cases. The AI sacrificing some units to cut your supply lines can be a viable defensive strategy for it, particularly with Soviet units which are not worth much per unit in terms of their offensive and defensive potential.

The AI rushing most of its units to cut your supply lines is a rare event, and it can only happen if you leave large gaps in your lines to begin with, so the AI responds to unusual actions made by the player with unusual actions by its own.

Scenarios are balanced on averages in terms of weather and AI behaviour.



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