RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (Full Version)

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Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 6:47:27 PM)

I believe this is an original feature of the aeroplane. Interesting to note that North American were some 75 years ahead of their competitors when it came to crew comforts...

[image]local://upfiles/20142/709486D581974DC79BB40E0A95067652.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 6:49:34 PM)

A view rearwards from the co-pilot's seat. The aircraft is fitted with a 'ferry floor' which sits over the bomb bay and would have been used for mounting the auxiliary fuel tanks for long range transit.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/796CF461AA2346DAA7139B1108EE0909.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 6:51:28 PM)

The rear guns, the gunner sits on (what looks and feels like) a bicycle seat. Lots of room back there though, it feels far roomier than the Lancaster's rear turret but the range of movement for the guns is a bit more limited.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/C6AF5A83E5744DE7BCDC094258D217FE.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 6:52:50 PM)

Access to the rear guns, another long tunnel. Certainly a different experience to the Lanc, there's more room in the gunner's positions but getting to them is awkward and getting out can't have been easy in an emergency.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/058F858C289246C5BC7F305AF827733B.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 6:55:52 PM)

All in all, it's a different beast to the Lancaster and it's easy to tell it was designed for a different role and in another country. Whereas the British aeroplanes are built around the concept of putting wings onto the bomb-bay, the actual bombs on most US types almost feel like an afterthought and they've just fitted the bomb-bay in wherever there happened to be space [:D]

Definitely a good day today, it's always good to get a look around a 'new' warbird.




Chickenboy -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 8:12:13 PM)

Hey, Dixie-you didn't show any insignia or surface with a visible insignia. Erm...an "official national" insignia, I meant. Was this a USAAF or a RAAF plane with the Oz markings?




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 8:25:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hey, Dixie-you didn't show any insignia or surface with a visible insignia. Erm...an "official national" insignia, I meant. Was this a USAAF or a RAAF plane with the Oz markings?


She's wearing the later war Dutch flag insignia. IIRC 18 Sqn were Dutch manned and operated under RAAF control/administration.




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 9:01:41 PM)

Here you go, don't say I'm not good to you.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/929EC5C1B433486C8402BB40272CBE4E.jpg[/image]




t001001001 -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 10:17:11 PM)

Beautiful aircrafts.





lesley -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 11:36:43 PM)

we have the BoBMF buzzing my hometown this week, looking forward to it.




wdolson -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/26/2013 11:41:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

All in all, it's a different beast to the Lancaster and it's easy to tell it was designed for a different role and in another country. Whereas the British aeroplanes are built around the concept of putting wings onto the bomb-bay, the actual bombs on most US types almost feel like an afterthought and they've just fitted the bomb-bay in wherever there happened to be space [:D]

Definitely a good day today, it's always good to get a look around a 'new' warbird.


The US was the only country with a thriving domestic aircraft market before the war. A lot of the aircraft designers had worked in the domestic market and a lot of innovations like the constant speed propeller came from that market. It probably influenced aircraft design to some extent. US medium bombers were usually somewhat larger than other country's plane serving in the same role. The RAF went from Marylands and Blenheims (twin engine tactical bombers, the Maryland was the loser of the competition that produced the A-20/Boston) to Wellingtons (small strategic bomber) with nothing really built for the niche the B-25 and B-26 occupied.

I believe the only two countries that built most of their multi-engine aircraft for two pilots were the US and Japan. For other countries most of the bombers only had one pilot.

You mentioned crawling into the nose. Imagine doing so with a heavy flight jacket on and then riding up there with 4X .50 caliber machine guns and a 35mm motion picture camera. That was my father's experience in B-25s.

I notice this plane has a partial collector ring for the exhaust (doesn't have cowling bumps all the way around and no top turret. It looks like a J, so the turret should be just behind the pilots.

Bill




JeffroK -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/27/2013 7:03:28 AM)

Its painted to represent a B25C which served with the ML-KNIL.

I cant see any info to show it served with 18 NEI Sqn RAAF, for an excellent listing of the NEI aircraft in Australia go to www.adf-serials.com, click on articles, research and hosted pages then scroll down to Units - NEI Aircraft research pages by Jos Heyman.




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/27/2013 5:58:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The US was the only country with a thriving domestic aircraft market before the war. A lot of the aircraft designers had worked in the domestic market and a lot of innovations like the constant speed propeller came from that market. It probably influenced aircraft design to some extent. US medium bombers were usually somewhat larger than other country's plane serving in the same role. The RAF went from Marylands and Blenheims (twin engine tactical bombers, the Maryland was the loser of the competition that produced the A-20/Boston) to Wellingtons (small strategic bomber) with nothing really built for the niche the B-25 and B-26 occupied.

I believe the only two countries that built most of their multi-engine aircraft for two pilots were the US and Japan. For other countries most of the bombers only had one pilot.

You mentioned crawling into the nose. Imagine doing so with a heavy flight jacket on and then riding up there with 4X .50 caliber machine guns and a 35mm motion picture camera. That was my father's experience in B-25s.

I notice this plane has a partial collector ring for the exhaust (doesn't have cowling bumps all the way around and no top turret. It looks like a J, so the turret should be just behind the pilots.

Bill


Horses for courses and the differences make things better IMO. It's interesting to see how different nations approached the same (or at least very similar) question and came up with different answers. For example the B-17 and Lancaster are the most famous designs for a strategic bomber but they're both quite different. As far as Brit aircraft go there isn't a direct analogue to the B-25. The Blenheim was an earlier design and the rest of the UK built tactical designs were smaller. Since the 1950s designs have become more and more similar and it's a bit dull really.

From the RAF perspective, the initial days saw two pilots assigned to the 'heavy' bombers but economics soon put an end to the practice. It cost a lot of money to train a pilot and each one lost was a big investment gone, so halving the pilots halved that particular cost.

The access sort of reminds me of an inverse version of the Lancaster, the gun positions in the Lanc are easier to get into but generally quite cramped once you're there. Whereas the B-25 is harder to get into but far more comfortable when you're there.

The data plate has her down as a B-25N but iirc she was built as a J. The Dutch are trying to find the funding to reinstall a lot of the stuff but they're a bit short of cash.


Where did your father serve?

[image]local://upfiles/20142/E1E8A025214040DA9F9E1129E0A4BD0A.jpg[/image]




wdolson -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/28/2013 12:36:01 AM)

From Joe Baugher's site, it was built as a B-25J-20/22

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944_1.html

29507 converted to TB-25N. To civilian registry as N3698G.
Now operated by Duke of Brabant Air Force at Gilze Rijen AB,
the Netherlands. Registered as N320SQ (referring to RAF Dutch 320 Sq.).
Was painted as RAF Mitchell HD346/NO-V/Lotys II, but since 1999
painted as 218 Sqdn ML-KNIL (Royal Netherlands East-Indies
Air Force) Mitchell N5-149, SARINAH
and flies regularly during airshows in Europe.
Will be re-registered PH-XXV in 2009. Reported Nov 2008
now owned by Dutch AF Historic Flight

My father was in a special photographic unit. When he was in the war zone he never knew what the unit designation was. Initially he was stateside making training films as part of the 1st Motion Picture Unit which is known for using a number of Hollywood stars in their films. My father was involved in getting the flying footage rather than the studio work so he wasn't "rubbing shoulders with the stars", but there were a lot of Hollywood cameramen in his unit.

He also worked on some R&D projects. In mid-1943 the USAAF was trying to figure out the best way to knock out V-1 bunkers which were being built in France. They tested a number of different techniques including B-25Gs and Hs. He was part of the film crew filming the tests. He was quite impressed with the cannon armed B-25s. He was also sent to the Bell plant in Georgia to shoot footage of a bunch of B-29s when the plant was first opened. He remembers the B-29s were in olive drab which would make them very early Renton built versions.

In late 1943 they split the unit and half was sent out to the Pacific. Most of the time he was never told why he was there, but his unit would be attached to a bomber unit and they would fly with them. One unit I've been able to track down was the 17th Tactical Recon Squadron flying B-25s. They were being used both for combat and recon. He stayed with them up most of the north side of New Guinea and into Tacloben. It was the 1st non-fighter unit into the beachhead after the invasion. He remembers lots of USN planes pushed off into the surf next to the landing strip and was told the Navy had lost some carriers, but that's all he knew about Leyte Gulf until after the war.

He then was transferred to Saipan and flew in recon B-29s filming all the run ins to all targets in B-29 range. The plan was to show these films to the navigators so they could know the land marks to look for when heading for a target. One of the guys on the project was a Geography professor who was an expert on the Geography of Japan.

After that he was transferred back to the states and the other half of the unit was sent to the Aleutians. However one of the officers who was supposed to go got sick the day before they shipped out and they needed a replacement. There were only two guys from the first group who weren't sick with tropical diseases, my father and another guy who was married. Since my father was single, he was tagged to go. He was only a corporal and he went into his CO's office and told him that he was replacing an officer on this deployment, so he should get an officer's pay, or maybe he would give them work commensurate with his pay. His CO said he doubted that, but got him a field promotion to 2nd Lieutenant anyway.

He spent the last months of the war on Attu which he found terrifying. The weather was so bad that he said they only took off once when there was no fog and that day he saw all the planes that hadn't made it through the gap in the mountains at the end of the runway. They were attacking shipping in the Kuriles and attacking the northernmost Japanese outposts. The flak over these was intense. He brought back a picture of a B-25 that took a direct hit a couple of days before the end of the war. All that was left was one wing.

He said the nose of the B-25 was incredibly loud with the exhaust vented directly out the cowling bumps and the 4X .50s up there. He has permanent hearing loss from that.

The B-29 was a luxury liner by comparison. It was fully pressurized and climate controlled so you didn't need heavy flight gear. It was also the quietest WW II bomber. Those engines were big, but the way the exhaust was routed, the plane was very quiet. Inside it was as quiet or quieter than a modern airliner.

He said he felt safest in a B-17 though. He flew in those stateside. He said they were so heavily over engineered you were left with a feeling the plane could survive anything. He felt least safe in the B-24 which he also flew stateside.

Bill




DOCUP -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/28/2013 11:27:21 PM)

Nice story Wdolson. Thanks to your father for his service. Dixie thanks for the pics and your service also.




Bobdina1 -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (8/29/2013 8:50:40 PM)

wdolson thank you very much for sharing your fathers experience very interesting. And again Dixie thanks for the pics and please keep sharing.




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:09:39 PM)

I had an extended weekend (29th August to 1st September). However rather than more time off I was at the Bournemouth Air Festival. It's an airshow which has free 'entry' of a sort. The airshow takes place just offshore along the beach, with the promenade filled with various stands, exhibitions and events.

We took the Lancaster and Hurricane LF363 and picked up Spitfire PM631 which had been left at Bournemouth the previous weekend. After the initial departure of the Spitfire most of my duties revolved around looking after LF, because she's by far my favourite [:D]


Here she is waiting patiently before Friday's flying, looking out at the sunshine. Not a particularly great pic but it shows how the fabric is formed around the wooden framework.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/26050403BFAE44D8AC059026577E3330.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:11:56 PM)

LF sat in the sunshine waiting to fly. The pilot (Sqn Ldr Millikin in this case) has crewed in and is waiting to start the engine before departing. The Spitfire is sat waiting on the other side of the Hurricane.

Most of my pics are of the Hurricane this weekend, for obvious reasons. I've tried to get a mix of the aeroplanes but the Lancaster was parked away from the fighters so I'm kind of limited.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/0771A1F3CB894D0C84BDAABCFCA4C475.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:15:15 PM)

On Saturday evening there was a sunset flying programme. In this shot a DH Sea Vixen (iirc of the RNHF) taxies past the nose of PM on her way to take off. PM was misbehaving a bit ny this point, hence she's had her top engine cowling taken off.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/F65CE0C6A6044E468337D1A258E2A4C1.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:19:22 PM)

Earlier in the day there were some longer trips for the fighters and the Lancaster, most trips were only 20 minutes or so as the airshow took place only a few miles from the airport. This left us with an hour or so to kill before they returned so I snapped a few shots of another visitor to Bournemouth airport. This side of the nose is more family friendly than the other. [:D]

She's a nice looking aeroplane in her own way. Very spacious inside (not that I got to go in) compared to the Lancaster but a small bomb bay compared to our kite. Much like the B-25 it's an excellent example of different solutions to the same design question.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/CFD24061D42549769C95E14ED765417E.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:26:19 PM)

Today was our last display, instead of RTB by road as was originally planned I got to fly home in style*. I managed to grab the mid-upper as it was my first trip of the weekend and it's probably the best all round view.

Taxying past Sally B on our way to departure today.


*It might be style, but apparently my 'thing' is getting massively airsick in the Lancaster. Whether it's the exhaust fumes, the vibrations or a combination of the two I don't know. I lasted nearly an hour before losing my lunch today. Still totally worth it.
Piston engines with their big pistons and crankshafts move more than a modern turbine engine and these vibrations are transmitted through the spars into the airframe itself. Also, the Lancaster features a hot air system of sorts. As designed the system ducted hot air into the interior near the WOp's bench, these days in mostly ducts exhaust fumes via the spars etc into the interior. It wasn't an issue in the war as they were mostly on oxygen, but as we don't use it things get a little more green if you're sat almost anywhere behind the front spar.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/CA867EFB8FBF4AD58EC0B1E02A53FA03.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:27:45 PM)

Ready to depart, PM is sat just forward of the port wing. LF is sat on the other side just out of view under the leading edge of the wing and the fuselage.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/B9F4FE6FD01045918D84673E22BBC376.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:31:53 PM)

Shortly after takeoff the fighters form up for the first pass over the crowd. It's not easy to tell from this range, but this is LF. By the time a fighter got this close to another aircraft during the war it was pretty much curtains for the victim.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/55BEE8620E154D7A901018F9F9F77783.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:33:42 PM)

PM sat in position on the other side. It's a Spitfire, it's blue and I'm struggling to think of things to say about her right now. [:D]

[image]local://upfiles/20142/86FDB19762944D1CB96CFE0CB5281BD2.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:36:58 PM)

LF on the other other side. Tucked in closer (but she got closer than this today) as we're nearing the seafront. Between the previous pic of her as a spec in the middle distance to this picture was less than a minute and a half at cruising speed. So it's possible to imagine how quickly aerial combat evolved at combat speeds.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/10C4F71ED9D24285A082DD2BB6E8F131.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: OT: Planes, Planes and More Planes (9/1/2013 9:38:41 PM)

And out over the sea. Today LF was being flown by Sqn Ldr Mason (OC BBMF) who had been in PM for most of the week. Again, it's an indication of how close they tuck in for formation displays, but she's actually quite far out compared to where she does go.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/F83594B536DD413AA1833EFA8BE46071.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> Dixie's BBMF stuff (other aircraft welcome) (9/1/2013 9:42:30 PM)

As we thunder over the crowd the whole formation banks as one. During any formation flying the Lancaster is the formation leader and is in charge of the display regardless of the ranks or roles of the pilots flying. There's quite a lot of bank on the aeroplane during this picture and the Spitfire pilot has his attention on what the Lancaster is doing rather than focusing on his instruments.

For those of you who like these things, there are some grey funnel line boats anchored in the bay.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/7E47D0F5E6BC4AC99C30657E4C6A4431.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> RE: Dixie's BBMF stuff (other aircraft welcome) (9/1/2013 9:45:53 PM)

And finally for today, LF363 again.

I don't need an excuse, or a reason to post pictures of her [:D] If anyone has particular aeroplanes they want a picture of then ask and I'll do my best. I'm not sure whether you guys want more shots of them flying (when I get airborne) or if you want shots of them in pieces being worked on or 'behind the scenes' types shots from the airshows.

[image]local://upfiles/20142/959AEBB8E2D04BE890B04F0C3A685865.jpg[/image]




Dixie -> Dixie's BBMF stuff (9/1/2013 9:59:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

From Joe Baugher's site, it was built as a B-25J-20/22

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944_1.html

29507 converted to TB-25N. To civilian registry as N3698G.
Now operated by Duke of Brabant Air Force at Gilze Rijen AB,
the Netherlands. Registered as N320SQ (referring to RAF Dutch 320 Sq.).
Was painted as RAF Mitchell HD346/NO-V/Lotys II, but since 1999
painted as 218 Sqdn ML-KNIL (Royal Netherlands East-Indies
Air Force) Mitchell N5-149, SARINAH
and flies regularly during airshows in Europe.
Will be re-registered PH-XXV in 2009. Reported Nov 2008
now owned by Dutch AF Historic Flight

My father was in a special photographic unit. When he was in the war zone he never knew what the unit designation was. Initially he was stateside making training films as part of the 1st Motion Picture Unit which is known for using a number of Hollywood stars in their films. My father was involved in getting the flying footage rather than the studio work so he wasn't "rubbing shoulders with the stars", but there were a lot of Hollywood cameramen in his unit.

He also worked on some R&D projects. In mid-1943 the USAAF was trying to figure out the best way to knock out V-1 bunkers which were being built in France. They tested a number of different techniques including B-25Gs and Hs. He was part of the film crew filming the tests. He was quite impressed with the cannon armed B-25s. He was also sent to the Bell plant in Georgia to shoot footage of a bunch of B-29s when the plant was first opened. He remembers the B-29s were in olive drab which would make them very early Renton built versions.

In late 1943 they split the unit and half was sent out to the Pacific. Most of the time he was never told why he was there, but his unit would be attached to a bomber unit and they would fly with them. One unit I've been able to track down was the 17th Tactical Recon Squadron flying B-25s. They were being used both for combat and recon. He stayed with them up most of the north side of New Guinea and into Tacloben. It was the 1st non-fighter unit into the beachhead after the invasion. He remembers lots of USN planes pushed off into the surf next to the landing strip and was told the Navy had lost some carriers, but that's all he knew about Leyte Gulf until after the war.

He then was transferred to Saipan and flew in recon B-29s filming all the run ins to all targets in B-29 range. The plan was to show these films to the navigators so they could know the land marks to look for when heading for a target. One of the guys on the project was a Geography professor who was an expert on the Geography of Japan.

After that he was transferred back to the states and the other half of the unit was sent to the Aleutians. However one of the officers who was supposed to go got sick the day before they shipped out and they needed a replacement. There were only two guys from the first group who weren't sick with tropical diseases, my father and another guy who was married. Since my father was single, he was tagged to go. He was only a corporal and he went into his CO's office and told him that he was replacing an officer on this deployment, so he should get an officer's pay, or maybe he would give them work commensurate with his pay. His CO said he doubted that, but got him a field promotion to 2nd Lieutenant anyway.

He spent the last months of the war on Attu which he found terrifying. The weather was so bad that he said they only took off once when there was no fog and that day he saw all the planes that hadn't made it through the gap in the mountains at the end of the runway. They were attacking shipping in the Kuriles and attacking the northernmost Japanese outposts. The flak over these was intense. He brought back a picture of a B-25 that took a direct hit a couple of days before the end of the war. All that was left was one wing.

He said the nose of the B-25 was incredibly loud with the exhaust vented directly out the cowling bumps and the 4X .50s up there. He has permanent hearing loss from that.

The B-29 was a luxury liner by comparison. It was fully pressurized and climate controlled so you didn't need heavy flight gear. It was also the quietest WW II bomber. Those engines were big, but the way the exhaust was routed, the plane was very quiet. Inside it was as quiet or quieter than a modern airliner.

He said he felt safest in a B-17 though. He flew in those stateside. He said they were so heavily over engineered you were left with a feeling the plane could survive anything. He felt least safe in the B-24 which he also flew stateside.

Bill


Thanks for the info, it's always interesting to hear the veterans stories from a more personal source, for some reason they're more interesting (alive/colourful/less sterile?) than most that make it into books.

I'd encourage anyone who wants to share (relevant) pics/stories to do it in here.




lesley -> RE: Dixie's BBMF stuff (9/1/2013 11:32:23 PM)

I was on Bournemouth beach for some of those flypasts,apparently everything small is a spitfire if you believe everyone stood near me. Shame the Vulcan was ill, it's allways impressive.




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