RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (Full Version)

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Ranger33 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/26/2013 8:01:05 PM)

Grr, typed out a big post and it got lost in translation or something. Short version: +1 to what Stormwaltz said. Put some of those games that I'm mildly interested in on sale and I will be much, much more likely to take a chance on them. Leave them at current prices and it's unlikely I will ever justify the expense to myself. My example was putting Conquest of the Aegean on sale, which is part of a series that I think I might really like, but am unsure about spending $40-60+ on. Maybe I pick up Aegean for cheap (~$20-25), find that I really love it, and come back for Command Ops. Or maybe just put Command Ops on sale [:D]

Anyway, excited to see you guys heeding the shifting winds, hope things go well! I'm very much prepared to put my money where my mouth is. Also excited for many of the upcoming titles, several of which I already know I will happily buy for full price.



RockKahn -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/26/2013 8:02:10 PM)

This thread is living proof that all you marketing 'whiz kids' [&o] need to get together and start your own game company. You exude confidence in your strategies. Now I'm a believer! (I have to give The Monkees credit here. I didn't come up with that myself. [;)])

So, pool your money, and start small with just one game developer. No where to grow, but up. (I believe that's original, but I'm not sure.)

You'll be able to put your first high quality war strategy games on Steam and Gamers Gate at dirt cheap prices. If a customer still thinks the price is too high, you can lower it. Other companies have had success in doing this, so, you know it works. Well, most of their games wouldn't be considered as high a quality as Matrix games, but that doesn't matter. Right? It'll still work. Right? With high quality games, I mean. Right?

You can sit at home typing on your keyboard from now until the cows come home [>:], telling Matrix they're wrong, but that's not getting me cheap, Matrix quality war games. I'll be your first customer.

There's only one reason for not moving on this, and that reason is, "you don't want to be rich"! [X(]

Well, what are you waiting for??!! Power to the people!! What? Oh, by all means, finish your last post telling Matrix they're wrong, first. Then act!!


You know, sometimes I think I should be a motivational speaker. I have that quality. [8D]



rodney727 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/26/2013 8:18:47 PM)

Motivational speaker? Yes you remind me of Matt folly...do you also live in a van down by the river?? I'm guessing yes. It's guys like this who come in after the fact with commits like this that really make me chuckle !
quote:

ORIGINAL: RockKahn

This thread is living proof that all you marketing 'whiz kids' [&o] need to get together and start your own game company. You exude confidence in your strategies. Now I'm a believer! (I have to give The Monkees credit here. I didn't come up with that myself. [;)])

So, pool your money, and start small with just one game developer. No where to grow, but up. (I believe that's original, but I'm not sure.)

You'll be able to put your first high quality war strategy games on Steam and Gamers Gate at dirt cheap prices. If a customer still thinks the price is too high, you can lower it. Other companies have had success in doing this, so, you know it works. Well, most of their games wouldn't be considered as high a quality as Matrix games, but that doesn't matter. Right? It'll still work. Right? With high quality games, I mean. Right?

You can sit at home typing on your keyboard from now until the cows come home [>:], telling Matrix they're wrong, but that's not getting me cheap, Matrix quality war games. I'll be your first customer.

There's only one reason for not moving on this, and that reason is, "you don't want to be rich"! [X(]

Well, what are you waiting for??!! Power to the people!! What? Oh, by all means, finish your last post telling Matrix they're wrong, first. Then act!!


You know, sometimes I think I should be a motivational speaker. I have that quality. [8D]





Aurelian -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/26/2013 9:14:29 PM)

RockKahn has a point.

You don't like the way the company runs it's business, start your own and show them how it's done.

You could even use Kickstarter.

It's easier to criticize from the stands than to get down on the field and get dirty.



rodney727 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/26/2013 9:23:40 PM)

I think both sides have valid points... But it's people like you who can't see outside the box and have tunnel vision . There are some things slitherine does really well and some things not so well...a company cannot grow with only "yes" men.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

RockKahn has a point.

You don't like the way the company runs it's business, start your own and show them how it's done.

You could even use Kickstarter.

It's easier to criticize from the stands than to get down on the field and get dirty.




dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/26/2013 11:33:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stormwaltz

There are some topics I will immediately pull out my credit card for. The Pacific War is a focus of mine, and I love the Distant Worlds and Advanced Tactics series. There are other topics I'm not heavily invested in, but still curious about. WWII in Europe. Ancient Battles. Napoleonics. I look over these subjects in the catalog from time to time, and because I love wargames in general, I debate whether or not I should give them a shot. But ultimately, I don't buy them, because I judge the cost too high relative to my level of interest.



Well put. The "value" you put on them, being (in some cases) 4, 5, 6 or more years old, does not equal the price Matrix has put, and maintains, on them. I wouldn't expect to pay full price for a 2007 Dodge Ram, so why would I be happy with a 2013 price on a 2007 wargame?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stormwaltz

If you decide to run sales, I guarantee that you will not lose any of the revenue you would have gotten from me anyway. But by never or rarely having sales on titles at the fringes of my interest, you're leaving more of my money that you *could* have behind on the table.



100% agreement. I don't need to have a 50% discount on a 6 month old game...but about twice a year I get 20-35% off on an extremely limited (in relation to the whole catalogue) number of games. And I bide my time, and I still have to hem and haw over whether a 5 year old game is worth purchasing at $45 over its usual $60 price. Matrix could have much freer access to my wallet, but apparently this would "cheapen the value" people hold for their games, and is thus verboten.

I remain hopeful about Tim Stone's bundle suggestion (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/19/the-flare-path-indecent-proposal/), but I guarantee the price point Matrix thinks will be adequate won't be anywhere near where it really needs to be.



dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/26/2013 11:38:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

RockKahn has a point.

You don't like the way the company runs it's business, start your own and show them how it's done.

You could even use Kickstarter.

It's easier to criticize from the stands than to get down on the field and get dirty.


Some would say it's also much easier to pretend there's no problem than it is to step forward and admit there's one, and suggest alternatives. Some people love the hobby so much they recognize it needs, so much more than Yes Men, some What The Heck Is Going On Men.



grogmaster -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 12:30:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RockKahn

This thread is living proof that all you marketing 'whiz kids' [&o] need to get together and start your own game company. You exude confidence in your strategies. Now I'm a believer! (I have to give The Monkees credit here. I didn't come up with that myself. [;)])

So, pool your money, and start small with just one game developer. No where to grow, but up. (I believe that's original, but I'm not sure.)

You'll be able to put your first high quality war strategy games on Steam and Gamers Gate at dirt cheap prices. If a customer still thinks the price is too high, you can lower it. Other companies have had success in doing this, so, you know it works. Well, most of their games wouldn't be considered as high a quality as Matrix games, but that doesn't matter. Right? It'll still work. Right? With high quality games, I mean. Right?

You can sit at home typing on your keyboard from now until the cows come home [>:], telling Matrix they're wrong, but that's not getting me cheap, Matrix quality war games. I'll be your first customer.

There's only one reason for not moving on this, and that reason is, "you don't want to be rich"! [X(]

Well, what are you waiting for??!! Power to the people!! What? Oh, by all means, finish your last post telling Matrix they're wrong, first. Then act!!


You know, sometimes I think I should be a motivational speaker. I have that quality. [8D]



This is a terrible response. I wouldn't be surprised if you were a Slitherine employee in disguise.



rodney727 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 2:39:45 AM)

Sure sounds like it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: grogmaster


quote:

ORIGINAL: RockKahn

This thread is living proof that all you marketing 'whiz kids' [&o] need to get together and start your own game company. You exude confidence in your strategies. Now I'm a believer! (I have to give The Monkees credit here. I didn't come up with that myself. [;)])

So, pool your money, and start small with just one game developer. No where to grow, but up. (I believe that's original, but I'm not sure.)

You'll be able to put your first high quality war strategy games on Steam and Gamers Gate at dirt cheap prices. If a customer still thinks the price is too high, you can lower it. Other companies have had success in doing this, so, you know it works. Well, most of their games wouldn't be considered as high a quality as Matrix games, but that doesn't matter. Right? It'll still work. Right? With high quality games, I mean. Right?

You can sit at home typing on your keyboard from now until the cows come home [>:], telling Matrix they're wrong, but that's not getting me cheap, Matrix quality war games. I'll be your first customer.

There's only one reason for not moving on this, and that reason is, "you don't want to be rich"! [X(]

Well, what are you waiting for??!! Power to the people!! What? Oh, by all means, finish your last post telling Matrix they're wrong, first. Then act!!


You know, sometimes I think I should be a motivational speaker. I have that quality. [8D]



This is a terrible response. I wouldn't be surprised if you were a Slitherine employee in disguise.




dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 2:55:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!


I took a few seconds and googled this. Thanks for the laugh.



Aurelian -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 4:40:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

RockKahn has a point.

You don't like the way the company runs it's business, start your own and show them how it's done.

You could even use Kickstarter.

It's easier to criticize from the stands than to get down on the field and get dirty.


Some would say it's also much easier to pretend there's no problem than it is to step forward and admit there's one, and suggest alternatives. Some people love the hobby so much they recognize it needs, so much more than Yes Men, some What The Heck Is Going On Men.


Yeah, some would. But none of them want to put what they only *think* is wrong to the test on their own.

Put up the money and time and prove you're right.



dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 5:15:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

RockKahn has a point.

You don't like the way the company runs it's business, start your own and show them how it's done.

You could even use Kickstarter.

It's easier to criticize from the stands than to get down on the field and get dirty.


Some would say it's also much easier to pretend there's no problem than it is to step forward and admit there's one, and suggest alternatives. Some people love the hobby so much they recognize it needs, so much more than Yes Men, some What The Heck Is Going On Men.


Yeah, some would. But none of them want to put what they only *think* is wrong to the test on their own.

Put up the money and time and prove you're right.


So President Obama is doing a fantastic job, and anyone who dares to think otherwise and has competing ideas about what is best for America can run for President. In the meantime they can STFU because it's obvious none of them really want to put their ideas to the test.

Triple Awesome Grape(tm) truly makes a refreshing beverage, eh?



Aurelian -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 5:19:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

RockKahn has a point.

You don't like the way the company runs it's business, start your own and show them how it's done.

You could even use Kickstarter.

It's easier to criticize from the stands than to get down on the field and get dirty.


Some would say it's also much easier to pretend there's no problem than it is to step forward and admit there's one, and suggest alternatives. Some people love the hobby so much they recognize it needs, so much more than Yes Men, some What The Heck Is Going On Men.


Yeah, some would. But none of them want to put what they only *think* is wrong to the test on their own.

Put up the money and time and prove you're right.


So President Obama is doing a fantastic job, and anyone who dares to think otherwise and has competing ideas about what is best for America can run for President. In the meantime they can STFU because it's obvious none of them really want to put their ideas to the test.

Triple Awesome Grape(tm) truly makes a refreshing beverage, eh?


Oh goodie, politics rears its ugly head.



dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 5:30:23 AM)

Wargame: Airland Battle, the sequel to Wargame: European Escalation, is coming out in a few weeks. Both are quirky little RTS games where NATO/WP combat in 80s Europe takes place. Not really my cup of tea as W: EE (which I did buy on deep discount) strikes me as more of a Command & Conquer where you have replaced the skins. Unit formations and tactics are almost ahistorical. But...

This $40 game is currently being offered for pre-order on Steam for $30 for those who own Wargame: European Escalation. Ubisoft is rewarding faithful fans of the concept with a financial gift.

When did Matrix last do this, offer a price reduction in exchange for a pre-purchase commitment? When did they last say "Thanks, fans of the ABC series for your loyalty, here's a pre-purchase financial break"? And no, the recent "Hey, if you already bought Panzer Corps modules we won't charge you twice for them" doesn't count.



dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 5:50:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Oh goodie, politics rears its ugly head.


Not at all. But forums are about the free exchange and discussion of ideas. As is politics.

And by declaring someone's opinion null and void because they don't run a games company, you've basically limited any discourse on this to Matrix and any other industry people who should care to voice an opinion. The rest of us get a "STFU until you are also running a games company". And while this will quickly quiet any opposition, it leaves the problems as they are, except for the Triple Awesome Grape(tm) drinkers who are here to gush their adulation and not much more. "America, love it or leave it" as it were.

Early on in this discussion someone said "Glad to see Iain is willing (as always) to talk. I disagree with a number of statements/assumptions he makes in his initial post here, but I am not running a games company, I'm on the outside looking in." Do you recall who wrote that?

I'm still on the outside looking in, but it's obvious to me PC wargaming is a dying hobby, and the Matrix solution seems to be "We're happy it's exclusive, and our prices will insure that it remains exclusive."

There's a large problem with that sort of exclusivity, though. Opera, for example, has shared a similar exclusivity since the 80s. As a result many, many smaller market opera companies have folded, gone bankrupt, disappeared. Because their exclusive fan base has aged, and (literally) died. I don't see the PC wargaming hobby showing much of a different future, especially since one of the major companies behind it is eating up the competition (NorbSoftDev and AGEOD being two of the more recent acquisitions), declaring that too many sales "cheapens the value" of their product, and have chosen to focus their recent grand marketing and development strategies on iPad games.

I have nothing against iPads, but that's not where I think it best for the hobby to go. Perhaps you disagree? Of course if you support the iPad trend, and I refuse to start up an iPad app development company I suppose my objections to that, too, must be silenced.



Kineas -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 8:44:50 AM)

Iain,

thanks for the post and for sharing this information with us. I believe you are on the right path so just keep marching. Social support is a nice thing, but I'd rather have the numbers on my side :)



Aurelian -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 5:31:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Oh goodie, politics rears its ugly head.


Not at all. But forums are about the free exchange and discussion of ideas. As is politics.



Forums have rules. No politics here is one of them. Does Obama run a wargame company? If not, then he has nothing what so ever to do with the subject.

But that's about what can be expected from a poster who thinks this company is a monopoly, yet can't prove it.



Ranger33 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 5:37:00 PM)

You missed his point entirely. He wasn't making any sort of political statement, it was just an analogy.

I'll go ahead and spell it out for you: Telling someone they can't make suggestions regarding running a wargame company, unless they actually run one; is the same as saying you can't make suggestions about what the POTUS should/shouldn't be doing until you are POTUS yourself.



htuna -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 6:14:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Wargame: Airland Battle, the sequel to Wargame: European Escalation, is coming out in a few weeks. Both are quirky little RTS games where NATO/WP combat in 80s Europe takes place. Not really my cup of tea as W: EE (which I did buy on deep discount) strikes me as more of a Command & Conquer where you have replaced the skins. Unit formations and tactics are almost ahistorical. But...

This $40 game is currently being offered for pre-order on Steam for $30 for those who own Wargame: European Escalation. Ubisoft is rewarding faithful fans of the concept with a financial gift.

When did Matrix last do this, offer a price reduction in exchange for a pre-purchase commitment? When did they last say "Thanks, fans of the ABC series for your loyalty, here's a pre-purchase financial break"? And no, the recent "Hey, if you already bought Panzer Corps modules we won't charge you twice for them" doesn't count.


Panzer Command Ostfront was given for free to owners of Panzer Command Kharkoff!

I think there was also some kind of discount going from Advanced Tactics to Advanced Tactics Gold.. I think the deals depend on the 'developer'..



dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 7:40:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Oh goodie, politics rears its ugly head.


Not at all. But forums are about the free exchange and discussion of ideas. As is politics.



Forums have rules. No politics here is one of them. Does Obama run a wargame company? If not, then he has nothing what so ever to do with the subject.



Funny, others seem able to understand the concept of analogy. Ah well.

Still, another useful dodge of the 16 points I brought up in my last response. That's worth something to you, I suppose.



dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 7:56:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Wargame: Airland Battle, the sequel to Wargame: European Escalation, is coming out in a few weeks. Both are quirky little RTS games where NATO/WP combat in 80s Europe takes place. Not really my cup of tea as W: EE (which I did buy on deep discount) strikes me as more of a Command & Conquer where you have replaced the skins. Unit formations and tactics are almost ahistorical. But...

This $40 game is currently being offered for pre-order on Steam for $30 for those who own Wargame: European Escalation. Ubisoft is rewarding faithful fans of the concept with a financial gift.

When did Matrix last do this, offer a price reduction in exchange for a pre-purchase commitment? When did they last say "Thanks, fans of the ABC series for your loyalty, here's a pre-purchase financial break"? And no, the recent "Hey, if you already bought Panzer Corps modules we won't charge you twice for them" doesn't count.


Panzer Command Ostfront was given for free to owners of Panzer Command Kharkoff!

I think there was also some kind of discount going from Advanced Tactics to Advanced Tactics Gold.. I think the deals depend on the 'developer'..


I believe Iain made it very clear that Matrix has a firm control on such deals, as they feel too deep a discount would "cheapen" the esteem the public holds for its games.

PCK was the forerunner to PCO. IIRC (no, even better, let's use Matrix's own words), PCO "...replaces both Panzer Command: Winterstorm and Panzer Command: Kharkov in our catalog and includes all the content of both of those releases." So we're looking at another Panzer Corps situation where owners of the base version would be charged a second time for an upgraded version. I can't address ATG as it is one of the dozens of Matrix Games I've never seen on sale, and I think $44 (CAD) is a tad pricey for a 2 year old reworking of a system released five and a half years ago.

BTW, PCO is one of the nine Matrix games that I own. Acquired it on sale about a year ago and I'm very glad they did put it on sale, as I immensely enjoyed playing it. But I wasn't willing to take a chance on it for full price.



Erik Rutins -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 8:39:09 PM)

Ok, I wasn't going to post any more, but the idea that we haven't offered discounts and rewarded loyalty is preposterous. We've been among the best in the business on that. We don't typically do pre-orders, because we don't like taking people's money until we have something to give them for it. However, we have had many similar rewards where we give a discount for owning a previous title in the series or sell a new title at an "upgrade" cost for previous owners. To take the example above, Ostfront was the sequel to Winterstorm and Kharkov just like Airland Battle is the sequal to European Escalation. We gave Ostfront free to previous owners. There are many instances where we've done a $10 or $15 discount for a sequel title.

Our store also has many cross-sell bundles, where if you buy more than one title from the same developer, you get a discount.

In addition to our six week holiday sale, where most of the catalog is 35% off, we have periodic blitzkrieg or themed sales and generally every newsletter (do you subscribe to those?) includes a discount coupon.

Incidentally, calling Wargame a "quirky little RTS" in no way changes the fact that it has a far larger development team and budget than any of our titles. RTS is a mainstream game style, not niche, and Wargame is very much a RTS (albeit a very good one with a historical setting).

Regards,

- Erik



dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 9:30:53 PM)

Erik, I truly don't want to draw you back into a discussion that you felt you had left, but I would like to reply. Feel under no obligation to respond.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, I wasn't going to post any more, but the idea that we haven't offered discounts and rewarded loyalty is preposterous. We've been among the best in the business on that.


I'm sorry, but the regular and deep discounts Steam and GG offer on their small strategy catalogue make me question that notion. Paradox, upon reaching 500 000 readers of their forums, gave away free copies of EU III to every member as a celebration.

quote:

We don't typically do pre-orders, because we don't like taking people's money until we have something to give them for it.

Fair enough. And in some cases it's a very good thing to avoid pre-orders...Combined Arms: World War II ring a bell?

quote:

However, we have had many similar rewards where we give a discount for owning a previous title in the series or sell a new title at an "upgrade" cost for previous owners. To take the example above, Ostfront was the sequel to Winterstorm and Kharkov just like Airland Battle is the sequal to European Escalation. We gave Ostfront free to previous owners.

My impression was that so much of PCO's content was identical to PCW and PCK that if you had tried to charge owners for it there would have been a huge uproar.

quote:

There are many instances where we've done a $10 or $15 discount for a sequel title.

I can think of a few, but nowhere near enough to make it "many". I don't go to Matrix/Slitherine every day, but I am on their mailing lists and FB feeds, so I'm at a bit of a loss here. I've taken advantage of at least a quarter of the offers I've seen, and my collection is at nine with several of them from your Holiday sales. And I've been a regular visitor to your site for at least 5 years (when I bought Highway to Hell at an EB Games).


quote:

Our store also has many cross-sell bundles, where if you buy more than one title from the same developer, you get a discount.

I have never seen this, not a single time. Please, someone point me to these offers, I'm eager to see what can be purchased!

quote:

In addition to our six week holiday sale, where most of the catalog is 35% off, we have periodic blitzkrieg or themed sales and generally every newsletter (do you subscribe to those?) includes a discount coupon.

Four of the nine games were bought from your last Holiday Sale. I did appreciate the 6 week length, as that let my spread out my purchasing at the time of the year where I have the least spare cash available. Steam had several sales over the same period, and I bought (from my quickly consulted records) 16 games from them. Here's the kicker...I spent far less on their 16 than I did on Matrix's four. Oh, and I had to edit to add this...it's been several months (at least) since I've seen a discount code in a mailing list newsletter. And even longer since I've seen one on a game I would consider purchasing (either period covered or price still very high even with discount). But I have certainly taken advantage of the codes in the past. It's also what made Easter so frustrating...the one egg that I found had none of the five discount uses left, and I did my search only several hours after the announcement.

quote:

Incidentally, calling Wargame a "quirky little RTS" in no way changes the fact that it has a far larger development team and budget than any of our titles. RTS is a mainstream game style, not niche, and Wargame is very much a RTS (albeit a very good one with a historical setting).

Agreed. However a "far larger budget" also indicates the need for a far larger profit, and yet they are discounting pre-purchases ("losing") $10 per unit. And I don't think any of those pre-purchasers will value the game any less for it being $30 instead of $40.

The concept of actively reducing sales seems so very alien to me, especially when pretty much every other company (short of the manufacturers of luxury watches and supercars) works its butt off to increase sales figures. And I'm sorry, but I don't see Matrix/Slitherine being a Rolex or Ferrari level company.



rickier65 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 9:53:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

......

My impression was that so much of PCO's content was identical to PCW and PCK that if you had tried to charge owners for it there would have been a huge uproar.
....


I've avoided posting in this thread up to now. I do not have the knowledge of the business that Matrix and Slitherine has, and I respect that they are more likely to know what is best for their business.

But I do have a fair bit of knowledge about what is in Panzer Command Ostfront, and how it compares to Panzer Command Kharkov and Panzer Comman Op Winter Storm. It I can assure you it was much much more than just some minor enhancements and mostly identical content to the two previous games in the series.

I've been glad that Matrix has been able to stay the course. Most, though not all, of my game purchases are made here Matrix.

Thanks
Rick




dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 10:14:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

......

My impression was that so much of PCO's content was identical to PCW and PCK that if you had tried to charge owners for it there would have been a huge uproar.
....


I've avoided posting in this thread up to now. I do not have the knowledge of the business that Matrix and Slitherine has, and I respect that they are more likely to know what is best for their business.

But I do have a fair bit of knowledge about what is in Panzer Command Ostfront, and how it compares to Panzer Command Kharkov and Panzer Comman Op Winter Storm. It I can assure you it was much much more than just some minor enhancements and mostly identical content to the two previous games in the series.




Then I sit corrected. My apologies.



Jim D Burns -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 10:21:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
The concept of actively reducing sales seems so very alien to me, especially when pretty much every other company (short of the manufacturers of luxury watches and supercars) works its butt off to increase sales figures.


That's because you're looking at this issue from a strictly selfish perspective. In your view cheaper games means more for you, you could care less what it means for Matrix and their bottom line. But another line quoted from your post proves Matrix has it right from a business perspective:

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
I spent far less on their 16 than I did on Matrix's four.


Even with their lineup of non-eye candy games most of the unwashed masses wouldn't look at let alone buy, they still generated more revenue from you with their business plan than Steam did with its plan. Had they discounted their games you'd have gotten more (the only thing you really are concerned with here) but from a business perspective Matrix would have lost revenue.

Matrix is a niche company they can't grow their target audience non-stop simply by discounting games, there are only so many people who give a hoot about these kinds of games and it's a tiny tiny market. If they don't maximize their profitability on every transaction they'll go under, and then who would make these kinds of games?

Jim



Zap -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/27/2013 11:01:52 PM)

Jim,

In a nutshell you identified what is the real dynamics of the arguments are.(and its understandable because people are always looking for a better deal; While matrix is looking for a viable way to sustain their business)

The key is, quote "they can't grow their audience non-stop by simply discounting games". Because there are not that many people who will ever, quote "give a hoot about these kinds of games"

I know some gamers here have made comments they may buy too many games (in joking). Or they have an extensive library of games. But matrix can't rely on us gamers to all be compulsive game buyers!



rodney727 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/28/2013 12:32:37 AM)

So only a discount on certain "select" games then offer 35% off on other non selling "select" games but not on new releases or high priced items. Think you kinda proved my point and that your loyalty program is indeed preposterous.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, I wasn't going to post any more, but the idea that we haven't offered discounts and rewarded loyalty is preposterous. We've been among the best in the business on that. We don't typically do pre-orders, because we don't like taking people's money until we have something to give them for it. However, we have had many similar rewards where we give a discount for owning a previous title in the series or sell a new title at an "upgrade" cost for previous owners. To take the example above, Ostfront was the sequel to Winterstorm and Kharkov just like Airland Battle is the sequal to European Escalation. We gave Ostfront free to previous owners. There are many instances where we've done a $10 or $15 discount for a sequel title.

Our store also has many cross-sell bundles, where if you buy more than one title from the same developer, you get a discount.

In addition to our six week holiday sale, where most of the catalog is 35% off, we have periodic blitzkrieg or themed sales and generally every newsletter (do you subscribe to those?) includes a discount coupon.

Incidentally, calling Wargame a "quirky little RTS" in no way changes the fact that it has a far larger development team and budget than any of our titles. RTS is a mainstream game style, not niche, and Wargame is very much a RTS (albeit a very good one with a historical setting).

Regards,

- Erik





dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/28/2013 1:41:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
The concept of actively reducing sales seems so very alien to me, especially when pretty much every other company (short of the manufacturers of luxury watches and supercars) works its butt off to increase sales figures.


That's because you're looking at this issue from a strictly selfish perspective.

Hardly. The only selfish thought I have is for the preservation of a hobby I love. Again, doing everything one can to keep sales low (and thus discouraging anyone new from joining the hobby) is as alien to me as saying that the reason you're keeping sales low is because otherwise your customers won't value your games. Does. Not. Compute.

quote:

In your view cheaper games means more for you, you could care less what it means for Matrix and their bottom line.

Absolutely not. I most certainly care for Matrix's bottom line, as that encourages them (and sustains them) to continue in the industry. But keeping 6 year old games at a price point where they'll sell none at all, when they could be reduced and both earn them more money and encourage more people (new and grognards alike) to try them makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. We've seen plenty of people step forward here and say "I'd love to buy more but I'm not risking $40 on a game long past its prime"...this is an indication to me that there's damage being done. By praising and supporting declining sales are you really helping Matrix?

quote:

But another line quoted from your post proves Matrix has it right from a business perspective:

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
I spent far less on their 16 than I did on Matrix's four.


Even with their lineup of non-eye candy games most of the unwashed masses wouldn't look at let alone buy, they still generated more revenue from you with their business plan than Steam did with its plan.

It may have been more revenue, but I doubt it was more profit. I'll leave it at that unless you truly don't understand profit maximization.

quote:

Had they discounted their games you'd have gotten more (the only thing you really are concerned with here) but from a business perspective Matrix would have lost revenue.

Ascribing greed as sole (or any) motive for voicing my opinion here may make you feel better, but I'm sorry to confirm that you're incorrect.

quote:

Matrix is a niche company they can't grow their target audience non-stop simply by discounting games, there are only so many people who give a hoot about these kinds of games and it's a tiny tiny market. If they don't maximize their profitability on every transaction they'll go under, and then who would make these kinds of games?

This kind of thinking/argument is truly a self-fulfilling prophecy. To use an analogy (and absolutely steering clear of any political subject this time, we must keep the Triple Awesome Grape(tm) drinkers sedate) Joe Blow decides that they can only work minimum wage jobs, and that's the way it's going to be. You go up to Joe and try to show him that's a dead-end, and in the long run a really terrible life. You suggest alternatives (education, training, promotion), and Joe says "Nope, it's only minimum wage. You trying to convince me otherwise must mean you're after my job. How dare you be so selfish?"

There's only so long you can go before you realize that Triple Awesome Grape(tm) drinkers aren't unable to see the situation as it really is, they are just actively trying to avoid seeing it as it really is.



histgamer -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/28/2013 10:39:21 AM)

First I want to thank Iain for the response. Many business' would never lay out they're thinking no matter how harsh critics are and I really appreciate slitherine/matrix for being about as open as any business really could be.

I make youtube videos for fun on occasion and as others have complained in here I probably fall under the boring variety for YouTube videos though over the last few months I am going to try a few things and rather than just ad-libing everything try actual scripting and video editing to improve the quality of my videos.

That said I can say I've put a few videos up for some matrix titles and I've been contacted by somewhere between 5-10 people who've purchased Panzer Corps and roughly another 5-10 who purchased Scourge of War.

They may be more mainstream titles but like many have said I definitely think there are are many people out there who would definitely enjoy these games given proper exposure. Your probably right it might only be 1 outta 100 people who watch a video or read an article or even less who'd consider buying it but social media is a huge and cheap opportunity to draw people in.

I don't think more conventional advertising is the way to go, a huge problem big publishers are having is they are getting bloated and spending millions upon millions in advertising that they never recoup in sales. Sometimes the cheap and free advertising is the most effective form and matrix would do well to maximize advertising in these channels rather than traditional advertising channels which in my uninformed opinion is really dying (for the gaming industry anyway) just as the conventional sales channels have died.

How much would an advertiser need to pay to get 30,000 people to view their product? How much does it take to get that many views on youtube? Yes the percentage of purchaes from YouTube is probably lower but the exposure is far greater and when your trying to find new customers that's a key, not just high value purchasing customers but exposing yourself to people who didn't even know you existed. With pretty poor quality videos I've had over 150,000 views on mainly wargame videos, over 50,000 on Panzer Corps videos, over 20,000 on SOW, and many others have seen far greater success, my totals are peanuts in the YouTube world, the guy who runs out of eight has almost a million views primarily on wargames, another creator has over 250,000 views just on crusader kings videos. There is definitely an apatite for wargames its just about finding the audience and as social media grows so to should Slitherine/Matrix's presence on things like Twitter, Youtube, Twitch and other platforms.

The payoffs might not seem huge but it's a way to gain that community engagement that Iain was talking about as well as cheaply reaching out to new customers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

Wargaming is indeed a niche. The success of Panzer Corps means nothing since it is more or less a mainstream startegygame.

I am a supporter of the idea to lower the Prices of older titles of course. But would that get more blood into the genre? I doubt it. As someone mentioned take older SSG titles as example. They have fixed resolutions and they arent loooking very good on nowadays widescreen TFTs. Same goes for a lot older Matrix Games (Crown of Glory etc). I fear those games would scare more people away instead of broading the audience. Lowering the prices of those games would help us (wargaming geeks) but not the genre as a whole.

Two more interesting examples:

1. One year ago a retail gaming store (in germany) announced their cessation of Business. They had offered a half dozen boxed Version of Battles in Italy (German retail Version) for 1 (one) Euro each. 
One months later they had not sold one of them. So I bought them all and made a giveaway on my gaming site. We have some wargamers over there yes, but the majority are shooter fans (since 7idGaming is focused on e-sports and we are hosting servers for ArmaII and such games). Anyway. In short: No one wanted Battles in Italy. Neither for 1 Euro nor for free.

2. Some weeks ago a friend gave me five gamersgate keys for a almost brand new wargame. So I announced a contest again. The only requirement was to like the developers Facebook site. My article had 280 hits but only three guys were interested enough to like the page for a free copy.

The price alone does not turn average Jon Doe into a wargamer. 



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