RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

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rodney727 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (4/30/2013 11:27:31 PM)
Maybe someone should tell christifer walkins that when he hosts Saturday night live.[:D] quote: ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine Guys, let's leave the ad-homs out of things please. Cheers Pip

n01487477 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/1/2013 4:08:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group. There are video tutorials made by myself and another guy, there are AAR's devoted to the subject, there is a wiki, there are thousands of threads devoted to it, there are small scale scenario's and a willing bunch of AE addicts who will take you under their wing... and yet I see not one post in that forum area from you ... At the time of acquiring AE I did skim the forums. (Like any forum) the low ratio of wheat to chaff was discouraging. Obviously, you didn't read very far; the wheat to chaff ratio is very high in that forum ... I'd suggest try again. quote: I did find videos on Youtube. The forum videos (that I found) were short, and half would not play (hosted on a rather old website IIRC). Yes, I made them, they all work depending on the browser you use and I intend moving them to youtube when time permits. Some of them are shorter than others but they all try to show something specific. They are focused on game mechanics, not how to beat an opponent. quote: I did walk away at the time, as I intended to bone up on the manual at work. The poor index kind of scuppered that. But I did boot up the game last night and do several turns. Enjoyable, but I was mostly clueless about how to affect the tide of things. Well at least you did try, the manual won't tell you exactly how to affect the tide of things. Start with a small scenario and move from there... It certainly isn't a game for everyone and if you feel it is too complex then I suggest moving onto another title or starting with UV, WITP etc

dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/1/2013 11:29:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 It certainly isn't a game for everyone and if you feel it is too complex then I suggest moving onto another title or starting with UV, WITP etc I loved UV back in the day, which was why I was so eager to get AE. I didn't count on things like production and upgrading, although it looks like most of that can be left to AI. I did a few turns of the Coral Sea one, and I do foresee going back to it, but I'm a little bit...miffed(?)...that the only way to master it appears to be digging into the forums. I can't imagine buying a car, for example, and then find out that what comes with it is so difficult to use that the only way I can productively learn is to attend classes on how to use it.

n01487477 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/2/2013 12:49:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 It certainly isn't a game for everyone and if you feel it is too complex then I suggest moving onto another title or starting with UV, WITP etc I loved UV back in the day, which was why I was so eager to get AE. I didn't count on things like production and upgrading, although it looks like most of that can be left to AI. I did a few turns of the Coral Sea one, and I do foresee going back to it, but I'm a little bit...miffed(?)...that the only way to master it appears to be digging into the forums. I can't imagine buying a car, for example, and then find out that what comes with it is so difficult to use that the only way I can productively learn is to attend classes on how to use it. Wouldn't that be driving lessons and the car manual? I just offered some advice ... you don't need to become involved in the forum. Sit back and play the game at the depth of experience you want. TO feel the richness, you have to do more... If you have played UV, then the basic mechanics are all the same and there are new options to explore. The manual does a good job of explaining the rules. Yes, I know you are going to cite an index ... But do you expect to enter the Monaco GP without riding around the block first? Anyway, my half-full dutchman ... fair winds. It sounds like you were looking for Beer&Pretzels and got more than you like to chew.

dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/2/2013 5:05:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 It certainly isn't a game for everyone and if you feel it is too complex then I suggest moving onto another title or starting with UV, WITP etc I loved UV back in the day, which was why I was so eager to get AE. I didn't count on things like production and upgrading, although it looks like most of that can be left to AI. I did a few turns of the Coral Sea one, and I do foresee going back to it, but I'm a little bit...miffed(?)...that the only way to master it appears to be digging into the forums. I can't imagine buying a car, for example, and then find out that what comes with it is so difficult to use that the only way I can productively learn is to attend classes on how to use it. Wouldn't that be driving lessons and the car manual? Driving lessons would be more like getting acquainted with PC wargaming in general, and the owner's manual would have to be massive with a poor index in order for the analogy to be accurate. And I was reminded by a friend in conversation earlier that apparently some vehicles are so overwhelmingly complex that the dealers will give seminars on how to operate them. VW offered her parents such a thing when they purchased their last vehicle. Car hobbyist clubs don't, however, offer walkthroughs on their favourite models. Nor would many expect or seek them to be there. quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 I just offered some advice ... you don't need to become involved in the forum. Sit back and play the game at the depth of experience you want. TO feel the richness, you have to do more... I have this funny idea about entertainment. The more it makes me work the less it feels like entertainment, and the more it feels like work. One of the reasons I'm a former ASL player. And to expand before this is misinterpreted...I work my butt off when playing CMBN PBEM. I will spend long times checking out LOS, planning artillery, organizing manoeuvres...but when I use CMBN's UI it makes sense, it took about 15 minutes to run two tutorials which made me comfortable with the system, and the manual is about 100 pages to cover even the most in-depth gameplay. (The manuals is 200 pages but 40 go to the Editor, and 60 go to unit descriptions and other extraneous things. No index but it doesn't need one, it's that cleanly organized.) I am joyful when I receive a CMBN turn. quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 If you have played UV, then the basic mechanics are all the same and there are new options to explore. The manual does a good job of explaining the rules. I appreciate all the work that went into creating the manual, and AE also, but I would not go so far as saying it does a "good job". Again, if I had been on the Beta team I could understand how wonderful the manual would appear as it came together, but "honestly" it could've used a drastic reorganization, some more parsing/editing, and (yes, I know) a better indexer or indexing program. But these are (obviously) all just my opinions, and as I said previously YMMV. quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 Anyway, my half-full dutchman ... fair winds. It sounds like you were looking for Beer&Pretzels and got more than you like to chew. More like for nearly $100 I expected Filet Mignon, and was served a tough butt steak instead.

IainMcNeil -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/2/2013 12:46:35 PM)
I think we've explored the merits of the WitP-AE manual enough for now and you guys will have to agree to differ.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/3/2013 1:49:11 AM)
I would prefer that the game's budget be focused on the code, not the manual. People forget that it is a budgeting process. If you want the manual of your dreams, then you'll have to kiss some features goodbye.

RangerX3X -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/3/2013 4:18:26 AM)
IMHO I do not subscribe to the �niche� aspect. Any industry that can release a product that people want, need and desire � and will fork over their hard earned cash for (on sale or not), is not a niche but rather a business enterprise. A niche is some guy toiling in his basement office cranking out chits for some DOS Box hyper-emulation with no hope of seeing anything remotely resembling a profit (they do it for their love of the activity). Trust me on this, to those people who purchase Ubisoft Petz think Ghost Recon Future Soldier (and all) first-person shooters are �niche� business models. You war-game developers and publishers are not a niche, you are a valid investment. [sm=00000436.gif]

Ashcloud -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/6/2013 6:05:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ashcloud Dang, they got me again - could not resist picking up the JT Civil War and then had to get the JT Napoleon one too (because it is bundled together would you not know), could not afford this right now. Next week they will probably put SPWAWGE and TAOWIII and then I might as well sign the up for the bankruptcy courts (can we not stagger these specials throughout the year - like first week of every month?). SPWAWGE, yup - thanks a ton. I knew this was going to happen, now for the sleepless nights while waiting for the enforcers to knock at my door.

dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/6/2013 11:31:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ashcloud quote: ORIGINAL: Ashcloud Dang, they got me again - could not resist picking up the JT Civil War and then had to get the JT Napoleon one too (because it is bundled together would you not know), could not afford this right now. Next week they will probably put SPWAWGE and TAOWIII and then I might as well sign the up for the bankruptcy courts (can we not stagger these specials throughout the year - like first week of every month?). SPWAWGE, yup - thanks a ton. I knew this was going to happen, now for the sleepless nights while waiting for the enforcers to knock at my door. Sad that again you joke about bankruptcy...it's $10 off of a 13 yr old game (max resolution is 800x600? Seriously?) and $10 off of an 11 yr old game. I'd bite at SPWAWGE if it was the more acceptable 1600x1200 promised here, (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Camo_Workshop/WW2/WW2_page.html), but I don't see any indication of that. If you pick it up and it does have that can you respond to this so I can also buy it? Many thanks in advance.

Erik Rutins -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/6/2013 11:45:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 Sad that again you joke about bankruptcy...it's $10 off of a 13 yr old game (max resolution is 800x600? Seriously?) and $10 off of an 11 yr old game. Actually, SPWAW-GE is normally $70 and is reduced by $40 to a sale price of $30 for this week. The quality of the gameplay and the content in the mega-campaigns makes it IMHO an incredible bargain at that price. Regards, - Erik

dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 1:18:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 Sad that again you joke about bankruptcy...it's $10 off of a 13 yr old game (max resolution is 800x600? Seriously?) and $10 off of an 11 yr old game. Actually, SPWAW-GE is normally $70 and is reduced by $40 to a sale price of $30 for this week. The quality of the gameplay and the content in the mega-campaigns makes it IMHO an incredible bargain at that price. Regards, - Erik Then I sit corrected. My apologies, I was going off of winSPWW2 by Shrapnel Games. Now, about quality....what's the highest resolution? Can it match winSPWW2's 1600 x 1200? I played winSPWW2's 640 x 480 demo version and...it was horrible. EDIT: Official word r'cvd from Matrix: "I'm afraid but that is correct. SPWAW only runs at 800x600." Unfortunately that's a deal breaker for me.

Erik Rutins -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 1:45:38 AM)
Hi Dutchman55555, That's fine - we post the specs so that each customer can decide. It's a 2000 game, updated for many years afterwards but we focused on the gameplay over Windows/Resolution/Engine improvements. WinSPWW2 is a fine game, but it also is not the same as SPWAW and does not have the Mega-Campaigns, which are IMHO worth the entire non-sale price. My advice is to play both free versions and if you enjoy the SPWAW gameplay, then the Mega Campaigns will introduce you to some of the most immersive tactical campaigns ever published. Regards, - Erik

Rocko911 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 1:53:20 AM)
Erik, I would advise you focus on Resolution/Windows improvements as most of us no longer have antique monitors. lol

dutchman55555 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 2:23:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LRRP Erik, I would advise you focus on Resolution/Windows improvements as most of us no longer have antique monitors. lol I feel for Matrix here. They have a full catalogue of "classic" games, most 6-13 years old. In no way, shape, or form would it be profitable for them to be renovated for optimal performance on current systems. But so many of them are still priced at $40-70 that I can't imagine the sales figures numbering more than a dozen or two per month per title. They're stuck with an increasingly aging catalogue with a dribble of new games each year to try and ignite/maintain interest with their regular customers. That's a tough, tough model to keep profitable.

histgamer -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 2:46:14 AM)
The Financial's they released when discussing why they price they do seemed encouraging enough. A 40% increase in revenue on PC games and over a 1,000% increase in Tablet sales. I think we will see more of the "older" games ported to iPad as it will be profitable for them to do that rather than release on systems most people probably already own them on, while a few new games will continue to come out for PC.

Canuck_jp -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 2:52:35 AM)
I look forward to Matrix's new sales campaign and I will reward them with my dollars assuming that I see the games that I want at the prices that I want. The fact that the OP uses "niche" in the title tells me just how much Matrix has no idea. If wargames are a niche then they're a niche because of Matrix's archaic thinking. Unity of Command is a wargame and not a simple one at that and it has been wildly successful. Why? Well the UI is fantastic, technically it is a modern game that lets you run it at any resolution that you want and they didn't say "we are a niche company so we're going to sell our game for $50 for the next 15 years". Believe me, if UoC was $50 then no one would have bought it. I'd like to give the "new" Decisive Battles" a go but as far as I know it still costs $50 despite being released in 2008 and it also uses a fixed resolution despite being released in the 21st century. If it goes on price for $20 in a Deal of the Week sale then I will probably hold my nose and pick it up. I honestly think that Matrix would be a lot better off if they abandoned their "wargames are niche" way of thinking handicap.

Rocko911 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 3:24:28 AM)
Dutchman, Canuck and Flanyboy, I think if Matrix/Slitherine would look at the fact that a revised Panzer General / Panzer Corps did so well due to the graphics and ability to play on modern computers they would see the way to a profitable future. However I have a feeling that they would keep rehashing retreads with no real improvements till the buying niche gets so small that they no longer have customers.

histgamer -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 6:08:52 AM)
Panzer General originally was never niche. MOST of Matrix games will never sell the way Panzer Corps has. There are a few exceptions which COULD be more mainstream like Scourge of War, but most games like WiTP just are not going to appeal to enough people to sell 500,000 copies or whatever you envision being possible.

rodney727 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 7:07:14 AM)
So in general (pardon the pun) you are saying panzer general in not a wargame because its not "niche". But witp is because few people would want to play it? Sorry I'm not buying into that. Both are wargames regardless of the complexities between them. That's like saying even tho tomatoes are often labeled as vegetables in truth they are a fruit but because few people realize they are indeed fruit we are going to still call them vegetables . quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy Panzer General originally was never niche. MOST of Matrix games will never sell the way Panzer Corps has. There are a few exceptions which COULD be more mainstream like Scourge of War, but most games like WiTP just are not going to appeal to enough people to sell 500,000 copies or whatever you envision being possible.

histgamer -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 7:09:20 AM)
I am not saying it's not a wargame. But I wouldn't say the audience of the two is the same and so marketing the two and pricing the two the same would be a strategy that is asking to fail. quote: ORIGINAL: rogo727 So in general (pardon the pun) you are saying panzer general in not a wargame because its not "niche". But witp is because few people would want to play it? Sorry I'm not buying into that. Both are wargames regardless of the complexities between them. That's like saying even tho tomatoes are often labeled as vegetables in truth they are a fruit but because few people realize they are indeed fruit we are going to still call them vegetables . quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy Panzer General originally was never niche. MOST of Matrix games will never sell the way Panzer Corps has. There are a few exceptions which COULD be more mainstream like Scourge of War, but most games like WiTP just are not going to appeal to enough people to sell 500,000 copies or whatever you envision being possible.

rodney727 -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 7:15:11 AM)
Both games are put out by the same company. How can one be NITCHE and the other not?. I do agree with you tho. witp wouldn't sell well on the iPad while panzer corps would. quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy I am not saying it's not a wargame. But I wouldn't say the audience of the two is the same and so marketing the two and pricing the two the same would be a strategy that is asking to fail. quote: ORIGINAL: rogo727 So in general (pardon the pun) you are saying panzer general in not a wargame because its not "niche". But witp is because few people would want to play it? Sorry I'm not buying into that. Both are wargames regardless of the complexities between them. That's like saying even tho tomatoes are often labeled as vegetables in truth they are a fruit but because few people realize they are indeed fruit we are going to still call them vegetables . quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy Panzer General originally was never niche. MOST of Matrix games will never sell the way Panzer Corps has. There are a few exceptions which COULD be more mainstream like Scourge of War, but most games like WiTP just are not going to appeal to enough people to sell 500,000 copies or whatever you envision being possible.

histgamer -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 7:43:52 AM)
Because who sells it has little to do with whether something is Niche or not, the market or the audience for the game determines that. Panzer Corps is a game that appeals to a wide range of players, including non grogs and even casual players, WiTP is something that would not appeal to pretty much anyone except grogs or hardcore history nerds interested in something new. Also really they are not put out by the same company, they are published by the same company but the companies that make them are different and so are the developers. quote: ORIGINAL: rogo727 Both games are put out by the same company. How can one be NITCHE and the other not?. I do agree with you tho. witp wouldn't sell well on the iPad while panzer corps would. quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy I am not saying it's not a wargame. But I wouldn't say the audience of the two is the same and so marketing the two and pricing the two the same would be a strategy that is asking to fail. quote: ORIGINAL: rogo727 So in general (pardon the pun) you are saying panzer general in not a wargame because its not "niche". But witp is because few people would want to play it? Sorry I'm not buying into that. Both are wargames regardless of the complexities between them. That's like saying even tho tomatoes are often labeled as vegetables in truth they are a fruit but because few people realize they are indeed fruit we are going to still call them vegetables . quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy Panzer General originally was never niche. MOST of Matrix games will never sell the way Panzer Corps has. There are a few exceptions which COULD be more mainstream like Scourge of War, but most games like WiTP just are not going to appeal to enough people to sell 500,000 copies or whatever you envision being possible.

Ashcloud -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 8:14:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 Sad that again you joke about bankruptcy...it's $10 off of a 13 yr old game (max resolution is 800x600? Seriously?) and $10 off of an 11 yr old game. Actually, SPWAW-GE is normally $70 and is reduced by $40 to a sale price of $30 for this week. The quality of the gameplay and the content in the mega-campaigns makes it IMHO an incredible bargain at that price. Regards, - Erik Yes, it is fantastic but does it have resolution higher than 800x600? Sorry answer is above, afraid I am going to have to save my money this time - what a relief no need for the enforcers to bug me yet, desperately wanted the mega-campaign but not at 800X600 resolution.

Erik Rutins -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 3:37:14 PM)
Hi Dutchman55555, quote: ORIGINAL: dutchman55555 quote: ORIGINAL: LRRP Erik, I would advise you focus on Resolution/Windows improvements as most of us no longer have antique monitors. lol I feel for Matrix here. They have a full catalogue of "classic" games, most 6-13 years old. In no way, shape, or form would it be profitable for them to be renovated for optimal performance on current systems. But so many of them are still priced at $40-70 that I can't imagine the sales figures numbering more than a dozen or two per month per title. They're stuck with an increasingly aging catalogue with a dribble of new games each year to try and ignite/maintain interest with their regular customers. That's a tough, tough model to keep profitable. You call the release schedule we've been on for the past few years a "dribble"? It's been increasing each year and is at record levels for our history. Contrary to your post we are not only releasing more games per year than ever, but improving them with each release and expanding to entirely new platforms. Your post is simply an alternate reality. You seem convinced we're doing everything wrong and assume that we are in decline to justify your point of view. In fact, we are growing at a remarkable pace and back catalog sales are strong. SPWAW was the first game we actually released, back in 2000. We released it for free to the community and updated it for years afterwards. In general, we support our games long after most companies move on. Wargames also have a longer life than most games as the amount of work it takes to develop a great one is not easily repeated. Resolution and state of the art graphics take a back seat to gameplay for most. Our new games have modern graphics and interfaces as well as full support for all resolutions, but an older wargame is only really "old" when the gameplay is replaced by a newer and better wargame. I would also love another update for SPWAW, but that's not possible right now. However, making a new SP is something we can and will do in the future, as soon as we are ready. Regards, - Erik

Erik Rutins -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 3:39:19 PM)
Hi guys, we are not reopening the pricing discussion, fair warning. Regards, - Erik

Erik Rutins -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 3:46:17 PM)
For the niche vs. non-niche discussion... you can design a wargame to be less of a niche game. UOC is a great example, as is Panzer Corps. These wargames will sell to far more people than a War in the Pacific. They will still not sell nearly as many copies as a fully mainstream game. The fact is that while most people in the world understand and would be happy to play "Tetris", far fewer are interested in refighting WWII on the Eastern Front, regardless of how well you do the interface and how well you streamline the complexity. These games will also not address the need and interest many wargamers have for more hard-core games like War in the Pacific or Steel Panthers, or ones that focus on less popular subjects, like the Seven Years War or the campaigns of Alexander the Great. As stated earlier, wargaming is a healthy niche but it is a niche and wargames come in all shapes and sizes that cater to larger or smaller segments of that niche. The basic question you have to answer is this. If you gave every person in the world a choice between a free game of Pac-Man or War in the Pacific, what percentage do you think would choose War in the Pacific? If you gave a wargamer the same choice, how many would choose Pac-Man? Regards, - Erik

Aurelian -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 3:58:46 PM)
Time to close this thread as it's going in circles. This niche is healthy. This niche is growing. No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that.

vonRocko -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 4:01:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aurelian Time to close this thread as it's going in circles. This niche is healthy. This niche is growing. No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that. Instead of crying for censorship, why not try ignoring the thread?

Aurelian -> RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche (5/7/2013 5:25:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vonRocko quote: ORIGINAL: Aurelian Time to close this thread as it's going in circles. This niche is healthy. This niche is growing. No amount of naysaying by the same ones is going to change that. Instead of crying for censorship, why not try ignoring the thread? Your whining makes my point for me. Oh, as stated by TPTB, "censorship" would be deleting the thread. Locking it, as your post shows, is acknowledgement that it has run its course.

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