Shadows Strategy Discussion (Full Version)

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Constantine XI -> Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/17/2013 2:28:29 PM)

In anticipation of Shadows, I thought it might be interesting to discuss the possible new strategies / priorities / etc. that the new expansion will call for. We obviously don't have all of the needed information or experience to develop detailed plans, but we can at least start brainstorming.

I plan to play as a traditional Empire in Pre-Hyperspace for my first game. Here are a few things I am considiering:

- Security: What sorts of defenses will we be able to create / need early on, pre-hyperspace? The most likely threat we will need to address are Pirates coming into our home system and causing trouble as we are getting on our feet. But we won't be able to build fleets that can hunt them down or destroy their bases...so how do we protect ourselves early on? Will we be able to build STL ships to patrol our home system, early on, or will even that level of technology be out of reach? Addressing these kinds of issues early on seems to be priority number one...we can't get ourselves going without securing our own home system first.

- Exploration: We likely won't start with any other systems explored, and no mines. So we need to explore to find the best sites to produce critical resources. In Legends, you start with several mines and some systems explored, so you have a better base. That won't be the case now, so finding those valuable spots may become even more of a priority, just to ensure we have the needed materials to fuel even the most basic expansion.



Plant -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/18/2013 2:47:16 PM)

I wasn't in the shadows beta, but it seems that you can pay the pirates protection money, and once you have a spaceport up, you can build ships without hyperdrive.



Bingeling -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/18/2013 2:54:03 PM)

That is true, Plant.

You have a choice before getting hyperdrives. You can turtle on you colony. Build a spaceport, maybe a defensive base, and also maybe a few ships to help the spaceport. Or you can try place a lot of mines and defend them.

A mix is of course also possible.

Then you have the warp bubble phase, where you got some sort of hyperdrive, but it is slow and short range. You may reach a few of the nearest systems, and of course you can add more fuel cells and reach more. But this is a phase where you can at least easily warp around your own system.



Plant -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/18/2013 3:46:06 PM)

I got to ask, is it possible to starve yourself out, by trying to build your starting starport without the neccessary resources need for its construction at the start of the game?



StarLab -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/18/2013 4:21:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant

I got to ask, is it possible to starve yourself out, by trying to build your starting starport without the neccessary resources need for its construction at the start of the game?


No, at least not right at the start. You start with a basic stockpile giving you enough resources to build a few initial basics - such as the starport.

HTH



Spacecadet -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/18/2013 5:44:53 PM)

Here's a little info to add as food for thought.

Starting out Techs:

You have no Armor
You have no Shields
You have no Fighters
You have no Proximity Sensors
You have no Target Tracking
You have no Countermeasures
You have no Warp Drive
You have no Collectors
You have no Colonization
You have no Troop Transport Pods
You have no Medical Center
You have no Recreation Center

You do have Pulse Blasters (4 damage @ 150 range)
You do have Missiles (5 damage @ 400 range)
You do have Long Range Guns (5 damage @ 100 range)

These last three are basically precursor type weapons, in that they don't upgrade, just like the initial Fuel Cells you start with.
This of course means you're going to be doing early Retrofits or new Designs, or a combination there of.

Got some time?
Build a ship in DW without Warp Drives (if it's even possible) and see how long it takes to move to another planet.

This will give some idea of what you're going to be facing [;)]


Oh, something else to add to your planning . . . did I mention that it may take 10 to 20 years before you even have Warp Drive?

See, you start out on a planet with 4B or 5B people. Your Economy is not going gangbusters (Economy has been tuned), and since you start out with no Space presence, the only Research production you have is what your planetary output is . . .








Bingeling -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/18/2013 7:14:21 PM)

It is possible to kill yourself with resources. Building too much is probably not a good idea, but unless you go crazy the starting stores helps you a long time.

I had a game where I had no resources, no ships, and no spaceport. That is a bad spot :)

If you look at my shadows AAR, I sat very quite for a long time (expensive research), and had a pretty giant caslon store when entering space. I had my gas mine during the warp age.

I watched some automated Gizureans have a short term caslon shortage, but that was quickly cured. They had something like 40 military ships before exiting their system.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/18/2013 7:47:54 PM)

It's worth noting that unlike previous versions, even if you are in a situation where you have no resource, you can now pay the pirates to bring you the resources you need. This is obviously a bad bargain in some ways, but it's also what the pirates want, so in emergency resource shortages you can accept the cost of strengthening them in exchange for getting your economy back on track.



Modest -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/20/2013 10:43:29 AM)

Question. When I need, or just want pirates to bring me resources, can I specify what kind of resources do I need? I saw in Bingeling's Let's Play that AI empires asked for resources in general, while independants asked for specify type of resources. But do empires can specify it just like independants do? And is it possiple to ask pirates to smuggle some Loros Fruits, Zentabia Fluid or Korribean Spice? I wonder also how much it would cost me... ;)



Bingeling -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/20/2013 12:18:33 PM)

A fresh start gives the following options (samples):

All Resources: 100 credits per 100 units
Argon: 83,3 credits
Caslon: 166,7 credits
Carbon Fiber: 166,7 credits
Terralion Down: 41,7 credits
Zentiba Fluid: 41,7 credits

They don't seem to want luxuries much. And they care more about key stuff like fuel and the somewhat rare strategics. It does not seem like you can post more than one from the same colony.

It seems like the story is pretty much the same, and I am not sure the values make sense...



Erik Rutins -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/20/2013 3:56:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Modest
Question. When I need, or just want pirates to bring me resources, can I specify what kind of resources do I need? I saw in Bingeling's Let's Play that AI empires asked for resources in general, while independants asked for specify type of resources. But do empires can specify it just like independants do? And is it possiple to ask pirates to smuggle some Loros Fruits, Zentabia Fluid or Korribean Spice? I wonder also how much it would cost me... ;)


Yes, for any location you can either request a general smuggling mission (all resources) or request a smuggling mission for a specific resource.

Regards,

- Erik




Modest -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/20/2013 9:00:48 PM)

Thank You very much for answers :)
Now... Those numbers are a surprise to me :) But maybe in the end game they change as needs are changable over time :) Truth is nobody will be concerned at the start of game about Zentabia Fluid when he can't aquire caslon or steel...

Now... Question number two... INFLATION! :)
Economy has been tweacken. Ok, fine. How about inflation system? Are there any changes? Do we have now "inflationovertime" liki in Civilisation 5 (in my personal opinion very bad and stupid mechanic), or do we have still good inflation system based on galaxy demand and supply? And if the latter, are there still max and min prices for each resources?



Plant -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/22/2013 5:43:54 PM)

Nice. I suppose as a pirate you can deliberately starve a civilisation to force them to pay you for resources.
100 credits for 100 units seem rather cheap though.

No idea what you are on about by inflation, but I;ve noticed that in Legends, the costs of normal resources vary from 0.8 to 2.5



PWOFalcon -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/23/2013 7:34:10 AM)

It seems to me this will be a more turtle type strategies. You leap frog from system to system and make a stable presence. Unlike in the last games where you can send a colony ship and everything is good (depends on map size and hardness).

I would also think a good strategy would be is having a reacting fleet, reacting to threats that come out of no where and having small defense groups in each system that's important.



rahamundo -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/24/2013 11:39:02 PM)

Started as a pre-warp human civ. Had ship design on ai control but ship construction manual. All was well....created fleets, etc. But once I researched warp I could no longer build anything but constructors and explorers. All military ships were grayed out saying I didn't have the design to build them even though I had built them all pre-warp research. I checed and the design of ships was still set for ai control. Is there some interim step I missed to allow ai ship design to incorporate warp drive? Or is something else going on? Thanks.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/24/2013 11:58:50 PM)

Sounds like you didn't research larger construction size. The Warp Bubble Generator is large and needs several large reactors for its power needs.

Regards,

- Erik



rahamundo -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/25/2013 12:20:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Sounds like you didn't research larger construction size. The Warp Bubble Generator is large and needs several large reactors for its power needs.

Regards,

- Erik



Thanks for the prompt reply Erik.....I suspected it was something like that.



Jeeves -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/25/2013 1:38:16 AM)

I just thought that I would drop in on this discussion with a tip of my own. Tech can be purchased from an AI empire at about relations +24, and racial techs about +48. If you want to buy a tech, the price charged you falls quite rapidly between relations 24 and 48, faster than the cost of giving money in 5k increments. Exit after each fifth 5k negotiated free trade because there seems to be more effect that way. Of course if you want to get your money back, you sell tech to that empire. Another neat trick is that once you have permission to mine in an AI territory, you can build a mine there and get 100k or more for selling it to them, and 500k or more for research bases. Always do negotiated trades, you get screwed if you do straight swaps.

Lonnie Courtney Clay



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/25/2013 3:44:45 AM)

-Assault Pods: These seem to be needed by just about every ship/base type. Not so much for attack, but simple defense. Many times now the most common message I see is "Freighter XXX has been boarded and captured". Point Defense now has a purpose again in defending against incoming Pods.

-Gerax Hyperdrive: The default designs can have many(most?) of their Reactors removed once you move up from the Warp Bubble to the Gerax. As long as you have sufficient power for max FTL and surplus for the weapons, strip the rest off.

-Money is hard to come by. Sell a few out of the way Mines/Bases for a quick cash infusion. I often find myself barely treading water with all the new maintenance cost increases.

-Turn OFF Shakturi events: The Ancient Guardians seem to have none of the player limitations. The instant I left my home system I found them and they had worlds and bases all over the place.



PWOFalcon -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/25/2013 5:43:34 AM)

Yeah, what I have learned is making one or two Pirate factions be your best friend. Its costly but usually I have no choice. I notice they can claim abandon ships (I once got attacked by a capital ship while I barely had frigates). If you have a solar system that doesn't have a lot of basic resources you need, edited it or restart.

My current strategy:

I get colonization tech ASAP and Space construction. SO right when I get warp drive, I can start colonization (I found out that if you don't keep up, other empires will colonize worlds, I found sometime when I 1st colonize a planet/moon, they are on three or more).

I design my warships to weapons I can use ASAP. Usually been missiles. Get a Army on all of your worlds as fast as you can to stop raids.

Befriend one or two pirates. It cost a lot of money at first but the longer your allies, the cheaper the rates. And its one less thing to worry about, then raiding you and destroying your ships and space stations (face it, until you get off your feet, they are stronger).



CyclopsSlayer -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/25/2013 3:10:40 PM)

Problem I have with befriending Pirates, pay them the asked for protection and they still will Raid you, destroy your bases, etc...



Spacecadet -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/25/2013 5:51:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PWOFalcon

Yeah, what I have learned is making one or two Pirate factions be your best friend. Its costly but usually I have no choice. I notice they can claim abandon ships (I once got attacked by a capital ship while I barely had frigates). If you have a solar system that doesn't have a lot of basic resources you need, edited it or restart.

My current strategy:

I get colonization tech ASAP and Space construction. SO right when I get warp drive, I can start colonization (I found out that if you don't keep up, other empires will colonize worlds, I found sometime when I 1st colonize a planet/moon, they are on three or more).

I design my warships to weapons I can use ASAP. Usually been missiles. Get a Army on all of your worlds as fast as you can to stop raids.

Befriend one or two pirates. It cost a lot of money at first but the longer your allies, the cheaper the rates. And its one less thing to worry about, then raiding you and destroying your ships and space stations (face it, until you get off your feet, they are stronger).


This could be because of how you're setting the game up.

If you do total Random, that means both the Size and Tech of other Empires could be more than Pre-Warp.








PWOFalcon -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/25/2013 7:54:26 PM)

Settings are all right. Probably just a string of bad luck.



Constantine XI -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/26/2013 11:58:46 PM)

So far my first game in Shadows has been fairly easy. I faced some pirate attacks and invasions early on, but managed to end them off without serious losses. Now they seem to be just leaving me alone. I have just established my first colony in another system. Have had more trouble with ships running off to play with giant space monsters than with anything else. Rather annoying because I am not getting a warning message about that when it happens.

My economy is doing ok, hoping for a big boost from the new colonies. I am learning / relearning quite a bit, so I am sure I have made mistakes, but it is fun. My next big decision is whether or not to go after a pirate base that is between me and the Sol system, which has a nice human colony and some sources. The pirates are really weak and only have 1 ship that I know of. Thinking about trying to capture their base since it might provide good overwatch of the routes between Sol and my home system. Might be tough to crack though so maybe I will bypass it for now.

I have had star fighters for awhile, but can't build carriers yet. I can build Cruisers though. Do I just need more construction tech?



Kadrush -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/29/2013 4:26:41 PM)

After several games as pre-warp empire I found the necessity to employ some new strategies in order to survive. I would like to share my early game strategy and see your opinion.

1-From the start i modify my spaceport to contain only weapons labs, enough to employ me whole potential only on weapons research. At expensive research i can get starfighters in 1 or 2 years.

2-After that i upgrade my spaceport, remove all the weapons labs and go for energy labs, research shields, energy collection, construction (1 level) and go for warp field precursors. I defend my homeworld with 100 fighters, 50 shields, and 30 of each weapon, that usually keps the pirates at bay. Those defenses can be scaled accordingly to your economy, but it seems to work and makes defensive bases and research station unnecessary.

3-On the meantime i dont build anything else, but a few explorers to get the tech ruin for hyperdrive. With the fortress spaceport I stop paying the pirates and dont need a fleet as I got nothing else on my home system. Also with the extra money I set zero tax from time to time to increase my population and i keep a reduced number of troops on my homeworld. The extra money can also be used for tech rush, locking the research and avoiding set back events.

4-By the time I got the warp bubble generator my economy is strong enough for me to hold my home system, then make warp capable ships, build up my bases and set up my power base. By focusing i also got hyper tech much faster.

5-After I finish the gerax hyperdrive tech i move to high tech upgrading my spaceport accordingly (only high tech labs) and research colonization, medical, recreation and combat sensors tech. On the meantime i use my explorers to survey my surroundings.

6-I also bump my research by tech stealing the pirates on hyperdrive and warpbubble.

So?




Bingeling -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/29/2013 5:57:44 PM)

What kind of difficulty is that?

Medium spaceport. 2-3 explorers. 4 frigates. Energy base, and another research base of something. Consider to upgrade to large spaceport. If really eager or bored, build a constructor and put some mine if something is close. Starting on a moon usually gives more early opportunities. Otherwise, try not to doze off while waiting for warp.

Once warp, maybe another constructor, some more frigates. Build mines in the system. Does pirates kill a mine? Rebuild it. Snore until hyperdrive.

Once gerax is there? Grats, the game finally starts and the period of utter boredom is over.

It could be that pirates are a bit more active in the latest patch, though. That have the possibility for injecting some interest into the warp phase.

I have yet to see a shielded MSP or larger threatened before the game matures a bit. But pirates suffered in launch and 9.0.0.1, and my lone start in ...2 may have been in remote enough corners that I got off easily.



Kadrush -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/29/2013 6:00:09 PM)

i only play on hard, very hard and extreme. On extreme I tend avoid, after that last patch, as pirates went nuts with thousand ships in 10 years of game...



Bingeling -> RE: Shadows Strategy Discussion (5/29/2013 7:46:19 PM)

I have not tested them much after beta, and things may have changed, but I think race could matter a whole lot in early game. Quameno testing on hard was no party time when it came to economy :) There was a 'bug' with migration that made that one worse, but that did not affect the pre gerax days.



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