A couple of questions (Full Version)

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VonRay -> A couple of questions (1/6/2003 2:23:59 AM)

Excuse me if this has been addressed before but there are a couple things that bug me.

First off to KO an AT or field gun all of the crew has to be killed/wounded before the gun is destroyed, where to KO a Panzerjager, Marder, Nashorn, etc., all it takes is 1 or 2 hits. Since a Pzjgr is essentially an AT gun mounted on a chassis, should'nt the damge be modelled similarly? At least in regards to turret hits? I can understand 1 hit taking out a Pzjgr, but I also feel AT guns should be more vulnerable, getting an occasional KO from direct hits, similar to vehicle(turret) damage.


The second thing. Say I have an infantry unit targeted and he is allready under suppression. If I cause casualties with my 1st weapon and he falls back, I do not get an oppurtunity to hit them with my other weapons getting the oppurtunity to cause further casualties.
This is really frustrating when targeting an infantry unit in a hex with other infantry, when you hit the non-targeted unit and cause them to fall back, not getting to fire your other weapons at targeted unit.

I am just curious if these things bug anybody else and if there will ever be an effort to change them.
I have been playing SPWAW for almost 2 years and it is by far the best tactical/strategy game I have ever played!

KEEP UP THE AWSOME WORK!!!



Belisarius -> (1/6/2003 2:45:12 AM)

Hi VonRay

For your first question: YES, it bugs me as hell! :mad: An ATG is MUCH more harder to take out than a TD. Then again, this is a quirk to the game and you're free to use it to your own advantage ;)

For the second, I picture it like this; the first weapon causes so much damage that the enemy hurries to get out in time before I get the chance to rake them with i.e. machineguns. Now, this is also easily countered by having additional units getting a LOS to the enemies retreat line (this is how I kill infantry squads...chase them over 5 hexes, then they usually disperse).

So yes, these 'features' bug me, but can be countered. :)



VonRay -> (1/7/2003 12:40:21 AM)

Yes they can be countered, but the way I see it is that when my rifle squad opens up, the LMG/BAR etc, is not going to wait for the rifleman to finish shooting before they open up too:D

As far as AT guns go I can assume that they have better cover and concealment, making them harder to hit, but it sure would be sweet to occasionally take one out with one shot! :)



Goblin -> (1/7/2003 1:04:11 AM)

I agree with most of what you said. I have, however, taken an AT gun (and AA gun) with one shot. It doesn't happen alot, but it happens. It irritates me most when it happens to me. I wonder if the game rolls for exposed ammo being hit or something...

ATG's are vulnerable to a single smoke round, which balances them somewhat.

The infantry thing bugs me far more. The entire squad would shoot at the same time, as you pointed out. The game should roll all weapons, then apply the damage.

Goblin



maniacalmonkey -> (1/7/2003 1:12:52 AM)

The great vulnerability of vehicles is that they can be taken out by one single shot. It offsets their mobility and high armour very nicely. AT-guns (all field pieces for that matter) [I]can[/I] be destroyed by one shot, but it is rare. More commonly, the crew will suffer casualties until there's none left, or they will become too suppressed and run away from their gun. This is quite realistic as AT-guns are much smaller targets, and their crews will be trained in concealment as well. AT-guns were notoriously hard to take out from a distance (Rommel hated them).



rbrunsman -> (1/7/2003 1:17:07 AM)

These are certainly annoying situations for all of us, but you have to figure "what goes around, comes around."

I just spent 2 turns blasting away at one of V2's UK 6-lb AT guns to kill it. I must have shot at it 30 times with MG42s, 75mm and 20mm guns to finally kill it (~1000 yards away). I only hope it takes V2 that long to take out my AT guns when he spots them. Now there's that .50 cal MG next to it that I have to finish taking out.

Do not underestimate the value of a tank with smoke ammo. That's the lesson to remember!



Gary Tatro -> Too tell you the truth (1/7/2003 2:18:58 AM)

I have not really thought about the ATG's weapon being damaged. It sure is frustrating when they break down. All in all I like the fact that the ATG can not be destroyed. Why else would you take them as a defensive or offensive weapon. If they could be a one shot kill then I would never take them I would just purchase the mobil Anti-tank killers. Never the less you can defeat ATG's fairly well latter in the war with AIR and Anti-aircraft guns. The M15A has a quad 50 Cal mounted on it and it can kill an ATG crew with one shot at 1000 yards. :eek:

As far as the infantry retreating. Here is a way to stop it. After they retreat the first time, do not fire on them again. Move a half track or armored car into the same hex (if you have enough movement/experience overrun them) or continue to fire at it with the first unit that hit it. The unit will not retreat again. But will stay in that hex taking damage until it disburses. Another trick is to move an infantry unit on top of it and use that infantry unit to do the same thing. (a little more dangerous than a armored vehicle, also be careful to shut off bazoka's, flame throwers and satchel charges when firing into a hex with one of your units it it) Lastly if the infantry is all ready retreating or routed move a unit directly behind it so that your unit is in between the enemy and the enemies retreat HEX. Then when you fire on it and do damage the unit will retreat right into your hex then you continue to fire on it till it is destroyed. (Another warning these tactics can be very dangerous playing against the Russians who can spontaneously Rally to zero and then fire on you. Bad MoJo)



Gary Tatro -> Hey RB (1/7/2003 2:19:41 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]These are certainly annoying situations for all of us, but you have to figure "what goes around, comes around."

I just spent 2 turns blasting away at one of V2's UK 6-lb AT guns to kill it. I must have shot at it 30 times with MG42s, 75mm and 20mm guns to finally kill it (~1000 yards away). I only hope it takes V2 that long to take out my AT guns when he spots them. Now there's that .50 cal MG next to it that I have to finish taking out.

Do not underestimate the value of a tank with smoke ammo. That's the lesson to remember! [/B][/QUOTE]
Still having bad dreams about our game. :D :D :D



rbrunsman -> Re: Hey RB (1/7/2003 4:06:10 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Tatro
[B]Still having bad dreams about our game. :D :D :D [/B][/QUOTE]

If beating me gives you bad dreams, one day I hope to give you nightmares. :p



Capt. Pixel -> (1/7/2003 4:13:53 AM)

I don't have problem with the ATGs (for most of the reasons mentioned above), but the infantry 'instant-retreat' is kind of annoying.

There are other ways to bring your big weapons to bear on an infantry target that's about to bolt.

One way would be to fire a single weapon at the infantry (flamethrowers come to mind) Even though it's a secondary weapon, it's bound to do more damage to a soft target than a rifle shot.

Alternately you could turn off the first few weapons in a squad until you get down to the 'infantry killer' ordinance weapon as first fired weapon.

Flushing the enemy into a friendly-occupied hex is my favorite method, though. It pins 'em right down, and you can dispatch them at your leisure with full volleys.

Here's a trick I learned about firing into a melee hex.

Turn any friendly vehicles in the hex towards your firing unit. The vehicles might still get hit from stray shots, but they can take it on their frontal armor. Of course this increases their survival chances and they don't seem to suffer supression nearly as much as if you'd fired on their rear.

If your Infantry is in melee, don't fire into the hex, just don't. Your men don't stand a chance. Don't do it. It's an evil thing. There'll be courmartial proceedings and war crimes charges. :rolleyes:



john g -> Re: A couple of questions (1/9/2003 1:38:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VonRay
[B]Excuse me if this has been addressed before but there are a couple things that bug me.

First off to KO an AT or field gun all of the crew has to be killed/wounded before the gun is destroyed, where to KO a Panzerjager, Marder, Nashorn, etc., all it takes is 1 or 2 hits. Since a Pzjgr is essentially an AT gun mounted on a chassis, should'nt the damge be modelled similarly? At least in regards to turret hits? I can understand 1 hit taking out a Pzjgr, but I also feel AT guns should be more vulnerable, getting an occasional KO from direct hits, similar to vehicle(turret) damage.


[/B][/QUOTE]

You can kill artillery with single shots, you just have to be lucky. it happens less often as main gun kills on tanks, but since you also are losing men it is a race to see which kills the gun first.

Try editing the crew of a gun up to 99 then shoot at it. Then you should see gun kills before all the crew dies. I use 88mmAA agressively against the ai, pushing them right up with the forward infantry, and I have seen several gun kills with crew left over.

In the SPWW2 mailing list there have been messages recently about adding front armor to AT guns to represent the splinter shields, the same sort of messages were here more than a year ago and at that time Paul V stated that the game didn't play correctly when tanks were lobbing AP rounds at guns to penetrate the sheild.

When we then asked if the survivability number could be used to reflect the shield, Paul stated that it only came into effect when firing at hard targets, soft targets are not affected by survivability.
thanks, John.



VonRay -> (1/9/2003 4:55:13 AM)

quote:

When we then asked if the survivability number could be used to reflect the shield, Paul stated that it only came into effect when firing at hard targets, soft targets are not affected by survivability.
thanks, John.


That pretty much answers my question regarding damage vs ATG compared to damage vs Mobile ATG.



arethusa -> (7/12/2003 9:14:52 AM)

Having spent a number of years in the artillery and having a few friends who were turtles (in the armoured corps) :) ,I might be able to shed a little more light on the survivability of ATG vs that of a tank.

In the aritllery, wich is similar to fighting with an ATG, every man in the gun crew was trained to do every job to service the gun. Thus, if the regular man was unavailable, anybody else could take his place. I specifically remember one incident where half our crew had gone to lunch at the mess truck when a fire mission came down and we had to serve the gun with only 4 men out of a 7 man crew. Perhaps we had a reduced ROF but we did the mission.

In a tank, it's not the same. Even if you do train everybody to do everybody else's job, it just isn't practical for the driver to stop the tank, climb into the loader's seat and load the gun. If you've ever been in a tank, this trip could take a couple of minutes due to the cramped and twisting confines inside. By the same token, the commander sits on the opposite side of the gun as the loader and it's almost as hard for him to do both jobs, especially when the breech opening is on the opposite side from the sights. (Not a problem with an ATG since there's little restriction to jumping over to the opposite side.)

Furthermore, the gun is a much smaller, easier to hide and harder to hit, target than the tank, so a critical hit on the actual weapon is less likely. The tank, by contrast, is big and even if you don't hit the gun itself (think how often you kill the main weapon and not the tank), you're going to hit some other part.

If you hit a tank's turret ring (without killing the tank ;) ) then the tank can't aim at you. Just think of trying to aim at a moving target by turning the treads of the entire vehicle. The ATG on the other hand, even if the mounting post is jammed, it can still be turned by the crew grabbing the forks of the trails and manhandling it around. We did this with 105mm's all the time as they had a limited traverse range and fire missions weren't always in the direction that the gun-tractors initially dropped us off at.

Finally, hit the tracks of a tank and it's immobilized. Do you want to sit there in a steel box with a big target painted on the side of it? :eek:

On the other hand, even if the gun-tractor was hit, it's still possible to drag the gun away by brute force to get under cover or set up somewhere else. It's not easy, but it can be done.



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