A WW2 Stratagic Game (Full Version)

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Grok -> A WW2 Stratagic Game (9/22/2000 11:04:00 AM)

If memory serves me right, a few years ago wasn't Gary Grisby going to design a WW2 game that encompassed ALL the nations involved in the Europe and Pacific theaters? Recently, I have been looking for and even expecting someone to design one. Maybe even Gary Grisby himself? I would expect it to have land battles, sea battles and even air battles. And some economics and technology research thrown in would be nice, to give it a bit of uncertainty. I believe such a game would be well recieved. Axis and Allies just does not cut it. Anyone else looking for something like that? Or similiar? Grok [This message has been edited by Grok (edited September 22, 2000).]



Grumble -> (9/22/2000 11:35:00 PM)

Matrix had one on the boards for a while. Looked like a Days Of Decision/Advanced 3R-type game. Maybe with the loss of their planned revenue producer (WON) they will put this back on track.



GulFalco -> (9/23/2000 1:31:00 AM)

I still play High Command. ------------------ Men are cheap, but women can never be payed for. Napoleon



Charles22 -> (9/23/2000 3:39:00 AM)

Schwerpunkt is coming out with Russo-German War 41-44 due in november, but I don't know if it'll have AI then. According to the projects, they're also looking at Battle for North Africa, Italy, France and Germany '40-'45. I'm not sure what that means, and if that's at strategic level as the RGW game, or not (perhaps each theatre is a game instead of all the fronts being one game).



Grok -> (9/23/2000 6:46:00 AM)

Let me pose this question... Compared to what is available already, what improvements or design changes would make a grand stratagic game(with both theaters) of World War Two, even better? ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok



GulFalco -> (9/23/2000 7:15:00 AM)

1. Better A.I., of course,and I don't mean just the 'computer player', but having the ability to delegate certain tasks to the computer and have it do them effectively. 2. Many, many different start options, or a comprehensive editor, basically TOAW on a strategic scale, i.e., economics, diplomacy, and research. 3. Wide range of general combat orders, that can be put in for big battles, and then we get to watch as their executed. I don't know exactly what I mean here, but battles should have more of a cinemtaic quality to them as a watcher, also I think this would bring many more people into playing these games. ------------------ Men are cheap, but women can never be payed for. Napoleon [This message has been edited by GulFalco (edited September 22, 2000).]



Kwll -> (9/29/2000 8:56:00 PM)

I too and my gaming buddies 6 in all have been looking for a WWII game that is very similiar to High Command in concept but has a better econimic model along with a more in depth Political model. We would love to see battles such as SPWAW or TAOW but similified to We act as the generals or leaders of the country depending on scale. But a High Command upgrade and brought in the 21st centry tech. would be nice



VictorH -> (9/29/2000 11:29:00 PM)

Has anyone thought about contacting the original developers of High Command? They were called Colorado Computer Creations and they are still around. They did a game for AH too, but never got anything out of it. 360 bought High Command and released a version with better graphics then promptly went bankrupt. I wonder if they would be willing to make a deal like Gary Grigsby has with Matrix?



Jeff Panzer -> (9/30/2000 3:51:00 AM)

Hi Guys great site. How about High Command or Third Reich With the option to play at different levels. To go from Corp to Divsion ,Regiment to Battalion, Company to Paltoon and finally squad. Depending on how much you wanted to get involved a given battle. Plus the ability to jump to a tactical screen to see whats happening or jump in. Maybe once the an attack is in progress and you go to a squad or company level you in real time. Just a thought ------------------



Ed Cogburn -> (9/30/2000 2:00:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Panzer: Hi Guys great site. How about High Command or Third Reich With the option to play at different levels. To go from Corp to Divsion ,Regiment to Battalion, Company to Paltoon and finally squad.
Do you realize you're asking for a merging of Advanced Third Reich, TOAW, and SPWaW? Could you just imagine trying to code something like that? And if someone did code it, it would only run on a supercomputer. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Dave_R -> (9/30/2000 2:11:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn: Do you realize you're asking for a merging of Advanced Third Reich, TOAW, and SPWaW? Could you just imagine trying to code something like that? And if someone did code it, it would only run on a supercomputer. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Dunno about needing a Supercomputer. You'd probably need a superbrain too (grins)



Grok -> (10/1/2000 12:30:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn: Do you realize you're asking for a merging of Advanced Third Reich, TOAW, and SPWaW? Could you just imagine trying to code something like that? And if someone did code it, it would only run on a supercomputer. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
It would certainly be a challange. But, the first step is to have an idea for a game, then work out the realities of it. Can Jeff Panzer's idea become a reality? I don't know. But no one will ever know unless someone or several someones try. If enough people are interested in it, why not form a group and hash out the details of such a game? ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok [This message has been edited by Grok (edited September 30, 2000).]



VictorH -> (10/1/2000 1:26:00 AM)

The very thing on my mind GROK. I wonder if the rights to one of the old SPI boardgames could be purchased? Convert one of them, there would be an audience to buy; us older boardgamers who played them.



laurent Favre -> (10/1/2000 3:11:00 AM)

OK, let's go. Nothing original... Decision in Europe 1939-1946 Continuous time ( or turn based with WEGO movement) strategic ( no tactical or operational simulation levels!) game for 5 players: - germany -USSR -Italy - Great Britain -France/USA 3 players: one Axis, one USSR, one western allied players. 2 players: Axis/Allied (interesting, isn't it?) Minor countries will be played by the AI when neutral, by one human player when allied yo one side. game scale: 1 hex = 50km 1 month = 1 real hour ( game can be accelerated with players agreement; each player gets each hour one pause order) - 2 minutes will represent 1 day; each land unit will be able to fight once a day; aerial and naval operations to be discussed -map will cover Europe , North Africa and Middle East ( expansion pack will add USA to give Axis ability to invade America. Fog of war, ULTRA and spies will be implemented. Each nation will have different capacities in these domains and the losses of political points will lower them and vice-versa. -terrain types:sea, plain, urban, hills, mountain, woods, steppes, toundras,mediterranean, desert,impassible hexsides,marshes,rivers, super rivers, dams primary and secondary roads, railroads. each urban hex will have an airfield. Players will be able to build airfields outside towns by spending supply points -Units will represent army corps, fleet and between 500 to 1000 planes. Units will be rated for attack, defense,AT, AA, quality, supply consumption, political reliability.Planes will either modify land Combat ratio inn thir range or exert CAP, Strategic bombing, aerial replenishment or air strike against enemy air units. - ground units will be: armored, mechanized,motorized, cavalry, infantry,airborne, militia, partisan and some "chrome" units (Heavy tanks, SS, leaders modifying combat ratio). HQs will be needed to supply, engineering tasks and command control( variable range and efficiency). The combat ratio will be modified by armored ratio, weather, intel,quality, political reliability, air support, supply. - units will be able to entrench, move tactically or strategically. order will be given to HQs ( attack,probe, blitz, defend, give ground, hold, harass, reserve (with automatic intervention in a range defined by players order...). Belonging to both Hqs and leaders efficiency orders will be more or less well carried. Player will be able to play "Hitler's micromagement" by assigning orders and paths to units( and as in relity, this sort of management will lead to disaster) -leaders will be rated for combat, aggressivness and movement skills. As an option, these values will be either historical or random. - manpower will be divided between troops and production. It will be divided too between men good for the service or not. - replacement troops will be raised each month. Players will choose the duration of training, resulting in raising or lowering quality. - production rules will take into account ressources on the map and outside ( USA lend-lease, colony). Economic mobilization will be simulated ( rationnement, women , tax and inflation). Production priorities will be implemented. Changing them will take time. New weapons will take time to enter in production after discovery.Ressources will be: oil, raw materials, generic rare materials. Oil will be needed to build supply points for motorized units and planes when raw materials and rare materials will suffice to other units. part of the supply points will serve to the industry and players will be able to build new factories. factories will be divided in naval, plane, ground production. Some special factories( Atomic bomb, V1 and V2, radar) will be distinguished too and will be very costly. supply points will be used too to build fortifications which can be dismantled to receive supply points. - each unit will have a supply rating. A unsupplied unit will lose movement and combat points and even will be disbanded. the supply cost will be modified by the distance between the units and the nearer production center). - technology tree will be available with costs different for each nations, giving them an unequal ability to build new weapons.Some of these new weapons will modify CRT, other will be represented by new counters ( Atomic bombs, V1 and V2, strategic bombers) -Chits simulating several advantages will be ditributed: by example, a German player could receive a "Stalin doesn't believe in Barbarossa" chit giving a surprise effect. - diplomaty will cover: armistice, coup d'etats, alliance, betrayal, propaganda in occupied territories. Players will have choice between several occupation policy whose political cost will be different ( a German player will be able to practice a milder occupation policy but the political cost will be higher, reflecting the disappointment in Nazi ranks). Each player will have diplomacy points, based on economics, military and political factors with some corrections to simulate peculiar friendship or hate between 2 nations. Occupation of minor neutral or part of their territories will be possible with of course diplomatic consequencies. Nations will be : at war, allied, friendly, neutral,non-cooperative, suspicious. War declarations will suppose to be at last non-cooperative. A surprise effect for first attacks could be reached belongnig to the enemy intel level, expanditure of political points and some chits. Economic aid will be possible between friendly nations. Neutral nations will be able to sell ressources and material. Colony will have a fidelity rating varying with military and political events. -rules will simulate the difficulty to use units of several countries together. partisans will be either communists controlled by Soviet player or anti-communist controlled by western player; These units could be exchanged in diplomatic discussions against other advantages. - The Atlantic chart will be simulated: USA will earn political points when another countries sign it ( and peculiarly USSR which could accept some and refuse other). Of course, these signatures could be negociated against economic aid. USSR and Great Britain will lose political points when signing it. - Resistance and guerilla will develop in occupied territories much faster in case of brutal policy. Guerilla units will appear and enemy intel will be increased. - sub war will be simulated permitting to attempt to disrupt great Britain build-up and US tranport - Strategic bombardment will be developped too, lowering production but increasing enemy political strengh. - Victory will be mesured in political points, earned and lost on battlefield, by propaganda, occupation policy, economics consequencies of the war effort. Under a certain level, countries will offer talk piece or surrender. Political rules will cover US presidential elections, plot against Stalin if defeat too strong,plot against Hitler,possible replacement of Churchill by halifax, Vichy France, Italian Fascism destruction, death of some key leaders like Churchill, Hitler, etc [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited September 30, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited September 30, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited September 30, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited September 30, 2000).]



Grok -> (10/1/2000 6:49:00 AM)

Thats a great start Laurent...don't stop now. Maybe someone will pick up on what you have and go with it as well. ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok



Von Rom -> (10/1/2000 11:35:00 AM)

I think the Australian Design Group has a grand world war game that sounds like it would be very interesting. Check it out at: http://www.a-d-g.com.au/ When you get to their site, click on "Products" and then scroll down the page. ------------------ A King Tiger can give you a definite edge...



mogami -> (10/1/2000 1:05:00 PM)

Start the game in 1918(or anywhere before 1939) with axis player having till 1950 to score set amount of points (first has to take power) allied countries have to deal with their goverments for build programs and need set amount of political points to purchase new ac, tanks ect ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!



sapperland -> (10/2/2000 1:51:00 AM)

Sounds like a fun game to play, but whos gonna program the beast? World in Flames has been worked on for years and is only now nearing completion, but this is only for play against other people. They have not even started the AI. I can imagine how hard that would be. But then again, I'm sure the folks here at matrix are much better programers [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]



laurent Favre -> (10/2/2000 2:06:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by sapperland: Sounds like a fun game to play, but whos gonna program the beast? World in Flames has been worked on for years and is only now nearing completion, but this is only for play against other people. They have not even started the AI. I can imagine how hard that would be. But then again, I'm sure the folks here at matrix are much better programers [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
Sapperland, I did that more for the fun than anything else. Frankly, I really don't think Matrix xill pick up such a project and program it... But, I think too it would be interesting to build a " idea toolbox" about strategic simulation, just in case. I will do more proposals ( some detailed mechanisms). I don't know how doable they are ( I'm just in chapter 3 of my C++ manual...) but I will attempt to propose things I believe doable. By example, the game should start in september 39 because the task to build abstract mechanisms which would be realistic is yet a challenge. Adding immediatly concepts about the 1918-39 period would result in impossible task. About the AI: I believe any attempt to program a strategic AI in any game of this size is yet nearly impossible. Even if AI will play correctly, it will not be able to do what anyone can expect from an human opponent. As much AI would be able to rule minor countries and troops, The game should not propose a strategic AI, making clear the time needed would stop development of some rules. Regards, Laurent [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 01, 2000).]



laurent Favre -> (10/2/2000 3:19:00 AM)

Political rules a bit more detailed:any advice welcome in what I would call The wargame will never be programmed.... One thing is sure, I've fun to think about that. Enjoy! The core of the political rules is the National will track. Each nation has his own national will track, graduated from 0 political point to 100. Each nation will start with a peculiar political level: Germany 70, France 50, Great Britain 65, USSR 60, USA 30, Italia 50 by example ( minor nation will have too national will tracks). Political points will be earned or lost by the following events: - military victories and defeats of his own troops and to a lesser extent of his allies. Values will differ for each nationalities (soviet losses will cost less than US ones) - occupations or losses of territories ( mainly towns with perhaps some regions in Northn Africa; each town will have his own value with of course emphasis on capitals); - production of civil goods and financial measures ( inflation, forced loans) - influence of some key leaders ( Hitler charism on German people, churchill, Stalin) - diplomatic success ( armistice and peace and alliance treaties) - occupation policy( both in occupied and ruling counties) - strategic bombing ( both in bombed and bombing countries) - possesion of special weapons ( V1, V2, atomic bomb) - terror in totalitarian or dictatorial nations : double sided effect: at first enhance national will; some months after, will decrease it so the terror level should have to be raised or lowered to gain PP.Of course, several level of terror will be available. - freedom of press in democraty: effects inverted from terror ( loss of PP then gain). Of course, several level of freedom of press will be avalaible. - propaganda: this one is very special: propaganda will spend political points in the hope to obtain more at the end of the month. But if things goes bad, more molitical moints will be lost. Moreover, more the player will spend political points in propaganda, more he will have to spend some months later to get the same modifier. When political points go down to 20, the Nation will offer peacetalks. When 0 political point remains, the nation accept unconditional surrender. Around 30 PP, strikes may occur ( but terror can suppress strike events) Special mechanism: the " Totaler krieg" any Nation will be able to use once in the game, whose effects are permanent. Condition: national will above 80. effects: military and diplomatic events aren't anymore taken into account for political points variation. But the production of civilian goods will have to be drastically reduced,propaganda efforts will have to be raised, battle results will only permit at best to get the same numbers of Political points as spent in propaganda, peace talks will not be possible, so the number of Political points will be slowly reduced. Some nations will have some special rules: at 25 PP, Italia will have a chance to suppress fascism; at 15 PP or less, france will create a new regime ( Vichy), etc Last, just in case it is not whisful thinking: all ideas expressed here are offered to wargamers for free but I would express I don't want to see these ideas be implemented in a Talonsoft game... [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 01, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 01, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 01, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 01, 2000).]



Grok -> (10/2/2000 11:57:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by sapperland: Sounds like a fun game to play, but whos gonna program the beast? World in Flames has been worked on for years and is only now nearing completion, but this is only for play against other people. They have not even started the AI. I can imagine how hard that would be. But then again, I'm sure the folks here at matrix are much better programers [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
Its a step by step process sapperland [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] and if enough people get involved and work out the design to a reasonable and realistic level. Maybe Matrix Games may like it enough to get involved. And they(the Matrix game guys) do read these posts [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] The idea of a game by gamers...literaly by everyone who reads and posts to this topic, may not be as difficult to implement as it sounds. We shall wait and see... ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok



Grok -> (10/2/2000 12:21:00 PM)

Very Good Ideas laurent! You're a one man design team. I like the idea of political points though it might be better to limit the number of events that can gain/lose them(DoW, Alliances, limit the cities to Capitals, coastal ports and very large population/industrial/oil centers, treaties, and successfull invasions). Diplomacy should be limited and kept simple. Using chits is good, and the concept of national traits is good too. The use of leaders should be kept to a limited basis, too many spoil the recipe. Maybe assign the leaders(which are only in the game because they are so exceptional), to the units that need them and then reassign them somewhere else as needed. I need to think some more on the rest, but I do like what you have so far. Anyone else have any suggestions to laurents design? ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok



laurent Favre -> (10/2/2000 4:09:00 PM)

Thanks, Grok [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] In my wishful thinking serie, let's go to the production rules a bit more detailed... Last, just in case it is not whisful thinking: all ideas expressed here are offered to wargamers for free but I would express I don't want to see these ideas be implemented in a Talonsoft game... if they were programmable which obviously are certainly not -production is based on 3 ressource types, industrial centers, manpower, financial means and technologies. - ressources are: - oil: only used for computing supply of armored, mech, motorized units and planes. - raw materials figures carbon, iron, wood, food abstractly. Used for weapon creation, supply of all units,expansion of production capacity, civilian goods, transport. -rate materials figure rare minerals as tungsten, copper. Used as raw materials. -ressources will be furnished by some hexes in the map, each rated for genre and volume. - industrial centers will be towns. each will have a number figuring production capacity and types of equipment which can be built. - the production capacity will be the number of raw and rare materials each industrial center can transform during one month. This value will be affected by: investment, bombing, voluntary destruction, manpower level, strikes. - production capacity could be exchanged between 2 industrial centers, with delay ( relocation of Soviet and german industries) - manpower is a national global setting varying with mobilization, women manpower, mandatory working. It will lower industrial capacities if diminushing. - some technologies ( taylorism, production rationalization) will be able to raise production capacity. - financial means are only used for investment. At start, each nation will dispose of money means which will have to be increased by taxes, forced loans, inflation, commercial exchanges. Taxes, forced loans, inflation will of course be regrouped into one variable, affecting political points . For creation or expansion of a production capacity, money will have to be spent with materials. - the production will be at nation level ( not by industrial centers). Production will be divided in many categories with percentage levels altered by player. - fleet production ( total of naval capcity production points) - planes production (idem) - ground production: with sub categories: - civilian goods ( giving political points) - industrial capacity - transport level ( a low transport level will result in loss of a part of the materials ressources. -research - general weapons (ground units) - tanks -artillery - AT guns - AA guns - electronic features (radio and radar) - special weapons ( gas, Atomic bomb, V1 and V2) -supply - each production type will be: x raw materials + y raw material = 1 supply points, 100 planes, 1000 general equpmments, etc - player will be able to vary the proportion of rare materials in production type. If the proportion is lower than needed, the production result will be randomized ( reflecting fact low quality equipment is more or less useless in battlefield) - rare materials will be very needed for special weapon and electronics. - production priorities will simulate the difficulties to turn production of one type to another: when lowering one and for raising another, part of the percentage will be temporary lost and slowly recovered during the next months. - production of a new weapon type( created by research) will cost more in the 2 first months. - last, production of any genre will last at least 2 months ( and much pore for fleets, atomic bomb, etc) to force players to plan ahead. [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 02, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 02, 2000).] [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 02, 2000).]



laurent Favre -> (10/2/2000 7:51:00 PM)

In my wishful thinking serie, let's go to the some secondary rules a bit more detailed... Last, just in case it is not whisful thinking: all ideas expressed here are offered to wargamers for free Technology tree: will be common for all nations.Will be featured: - production enhancement (taylorism) - special weapons (A bomb,etc) - armor - fighters - bombers - strategic bombers - AT - AA -radar/sonar and countermeasures - communications - artillery Each research object will have several levels, except special weapons which will be perfect as soon discovered ( but time and ressources needed will be huge). Levels will be at max 5. Each nation will begin with some level reached ( level 1 for radar for Great britain by exmple). Research will be financed by expanditure of rare materials ressource points with a constant national modifier reflecting level of R/D in the country ( very high for USA, Germany, lower in USSR, Italia) Technology will be part of diplomatic and commercial exchanges. Last, the ressources yet spent in a branch will not transferable to another project; if one project is abandoned, all ressources will be lost. Research levels will give advantages: by example an amount of 3 production points with armor level 1 will give 1 armored strenght point; with level 2, it will give 1.5, etc. [This message has been edited by laurent Favre (edited October 02, 2000).]



Grumble -> (10/2/2000 11:17:00 PM)

Much of this work is already done viz, A3R and Days of Decision/WiF. IMHO, I believe strategic games should be strategic in play. Get's down to what one is simulating: National political leader, General Staff, theater Commander? I would suggest the capability for a player (human or AI) to play each major combatant. Makes for interesting political and coalition interaction. Not flaming anyone, each of us has our own gaming tastes, but I find it interesting that we slam Hitler and Stalin for getting down in the weeds with maneuvering divisions/battalions, but we as wargamers insist on doing the same thing...



Billy Yank -> (10/3/2000 4:21:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble: Not flaming anyone, each of us has our own gaming tastes, but I find it interesting that we slam Hitler and Stalin for getting down in the weeds with maneuvering divisions/battalions, but we as wargamers insist on doing the same thing...
That's because we don't have a Patton or Rommel level AI yet. I'm not even sure we have Gomer Pyle AI yet. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.



sapperland -> (10/3/2000 5:53:00 AM)

The problem with AI's is that at some point they do bad moves. So until (if ever) we get an AI that can play a human without cheats and win 50% of the time, I will want to control all the little details. The only game that I have seen that the AI performs very well is chess. However, in chess you have a limited number of moves. Compare that to even a basic war game like Axis and Allies and you get an almost unlimited number of choices to make.



Grumble -> (10/3/2000 6:03:00 AM)

Not just AI, I've seen the same tendency in boardgames as well. Don't want to labor the point, but I still say a strategic-level game should remain strategic in execution, regardless of opponent.



Ed Cogburn -> (10/3/2000 3:12:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble: Not just AI, I've seen the same tendency in boardgames as well. Don't want to labor the point, but I still say a strategic-level game should remain strategic in execution, regardless of opponent.
I'm not sure about boardgames, unless you're talking about "monster games", say, AH's "Longest Day", the whole damn Normandy invasion at battalion level or some such crazyness. When speaking of boardgames it comes down to the scale and scope of the game. As for computer games the reason is simple. AIs are *stupid*. Even low level AIs meant to do the grunt work freeing the player to handle high level issues. I've never found a good one in wargames or strategy games, and boardgames of course can't rely on a low level AI, so the players inevitably end up doing more than is realistic for their position, like moving all units themselves. AI stupidity is probably the reason why WiF is delayed and will initially show up without an AI, and "Road to Moscow" is still vaporware. The only true wargames are those done by the Pentagon, using human beings all the way through the chain of command from say, regiment level to corps commander, or something similar.



Recon_slith -> (10/3/2000 4:47:00 PM)

The AI is a major cause of the holdup in Computer WIF alright. It has been AGAIN put back 3 Months to the first quarter of 2001. Matrix should put in a bid to take over. ------------------ Wait for Death. There's a choice? Recon



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