RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (Full Version)

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historyis -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (6/5/2013 7:59:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Buio quote: ORIGINAL: AstroCat I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps. Hint: try "steam indie game success" google search, or anything similar. Of course it is easy to find indie game success stories, because there are so many games on Steam, and you google specifically for positives. But it's just a small percentage of the games actually on Steam. It doesn't mean your game will be an automatic success just because you put it on Steam. And you know that Steam has a filter called "greenlight" to sort out indie games that don't have hype and popularity? Which means they only take in games that show a certain amount of following. Noble of Steam, not letting unknown rabble getting in. I mean all those games are probably bad just because they are unknown. Here is a story about that. There are more, if you search for negatives. http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JoolsWatsham/20130417/190704/ So your response to people who want the game to be on Steam is to link to a story about someone who desperately wants their game on Steam. Personally, as someone who owns this game and its expansions, it benefits me if more people play it and know about it, because the bigger the audience, the more people there are to make mods and to share stories with. The fact that there are no reviews and very few people are talking about this game and the fact that Metacritic/Gamerankings didn't even list the latest expansion as having been released bothers me (especially since they do list the upcoming SoaSE expansion and the upcoming Panzer Corps game). This is arguably one of the best 4x games on the market that seems incredibly easy for a player to install mods to and no one is talking about it because so few people know about it. And the modding... as a community we should be selling people on the mods, because I think the Game of Thrones mod for CKII sold a lot of copies of that game to people who wouldn't have otherwise bought it (and the coverage of that mod along with the more recent Elder Scrolls one is also good press for that particular title).

Buio -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (6/5/2013 7:59:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AstroCat I was suggesting "in addition to" not "in place of" for the selling of DW. I just can not see the downside of adding a game like this to Steam. It's not free, and takes work to adjust it for Steam. Then Valve takes 30% tax on your sales. Supporting two different systems to patch the game is also extra work. And as far as I know there is one man working on the game, except freelancers for graphics/audio.

hammer58 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (6/5/2013 8:28:31 PM)
I guess I do not understand the issue propperly about steam vs the matrix digital sales model. Why can't Matrix do both? I think someone said that AI wars is available on steam and it is also a digital download on the matrix site. So they can do it both ways. Then the gamer can choose where he wants to get the game from. So what am I missing? Just trying to help the situation along. I think just selling the game on steam would get a lot of people to at least look up the game. I know it would have clued me in years ago. I would have searched you tube for a lets play of distant worlds after seeing it for sale on steam. Then if I liked what I saw which I do, then I would have bought the game, probably from steam. And I would have been playing it for years already. I still would not have been aware of the matrix site however had I done that. Matrix needs to do a better job of advertising its home site. Lots of cool games that are mostly only available on Matrix, games I want to play but never knew existed until just recently. So this issue for me goes well beyond Distant Worlds. It is a Matrix in general lack of advertising. They need a pop up ad. So when you mouse over it, say like on yahoo, then the ad changes to the image of all the game boxes like on top of their web site. So A guy can see all of the titles they have then if you click on it, you then go to the Matrix web site. A simple ad like that would do the trick. It would have worked on me anyway.

henri51 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (6/5/2013 10:51:27 PM)
It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me, and I have dozens of games on Matrix and Steam. I just want to note that many (if not most) of the games on Steam are also available on Gamersgate and Gamespot (where I have also bought some games), so having games on two sites is not rare. However I do agree that it is up to Matrix to do their own marketing decisions and to live with the consequences.But I find having games on Steam so useful that I have even bought Steam versions of games I already have (like CiV 5 and Medieval Total War) for the convenience of not having to insert the DVD, and the ease or uninstalling and reinstalling the game (just press the button). This does not apply to Ubisoft games like Heroes VI, who are driving people crazy with their bugged DMR on Steam. Henri

Drexy -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/22/2013 9:35:55 PM)
Really sick reading some of the anti steam post on this forum, i don't own the game because its just way to expensive for me right now just go read the 4x forum on reddit where every time this game comes up two things are said a)This is one of the best 4x games b) its too expensive/not on steam 1)Don't Steam DRM: So what? no ones forcing you to use steam you can buy/download from here it being on steam won't stop that 2)Devs won't profit as much due to valves cut: like i said so many people on reddit say they would buy if the could get it discounted on steam, this game will sale 20-50x as many copies as it currently does if it was on steam + you will get even more people who never heard of the game because they see it on a steam sale

turtlefang -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/22/2013 10:54:56 PM)
I think a lot of people are missing the point. Having managed third party distribution systems - which is what Steam is - there are a lot of advantages and disadvantages to using the system. It not just as easy as saying "yes, it will drive volume up by zillions and zillions of units". Anytime you have a third party system, you shift cost. There will be more cost associated with doing business with the 3rd party and less cost as the 3rd party handles things that you don't have to handle anymore. Before making a business decision to go that direction, you really have to take a very careful look at how those cost shift - and not just game distribution cost - but also patch distribution cost, technical support, what type of support would steam require you to provide, contract management cost (legal), accounting cost, etc... .A whole lot of things. Going with a 3rd party distribution system requires a different cost structure than a direct distribution system. The question is how different, and how expensive is it? And how much of the revenue are you willing to share. And is that revenue sharing down on a fix cost basis, a fix cost until you sold XX number of units and then a % of sales, or a straight percent of sales? And is it worth it? And will you avoid any cost by using the 3rd party to offset new cost (doubtful if you have to maintain TWO distribution systems) or gain enough revenue to offset those cost? And I'm assuming that CodeForce and Matrix are smart enough to know what these cost requirements are, do a decent job of estimating the revenue benefits (or at least the breakeven benefits), and come up with a cost benefit ratio. Heck, they have to be good with numbers, they're designing games based on of numbers and projections. So whatever business decision they have made, I would assume is the right one for them now. And if they are reasonable business people - and so far, my interactions with them make me believe they are reasonable, they will re-evaluate these decisions once in while to see if anything has changed. And then make what they think is the right business decision with more information that we have. And, no, I'm not a Steam hater or lover. I buy games from Steam when they have games that I like, and I play games on Steam with my friends when we have the same games. But I also pay extra just to have those disk in my hand when I order a game from Steam or Matrix - because it makes me feel better to have them on my shelf.

Kayoz -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/22/2013 11:06:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Drexy i don't own the game <snip excuses and whingeing> So, why then are you here whingeing? Is the only reason you've popped onto the forums, to whinge that Matrix's business model isn't right because it's not what you want? It seems that you have no locus standi. You're just here as a busybody/troll. quote: ORIGINAL: Drexy every time this game comes up two things are said a)This is one of the best 4x games b) its too expensive/not on steam I think we can ignore the "anti-Steam" sentiment you whinge about. It isn't about Steam at all. You've cited the price of the game repeatedly in your post. In fact, in the above quote, you've gone so far as to lump them together. You don't really care what distribution method they use, do you? What you really want is DW on the cheap. quote: ORIGINAL: Drexy 1)Don't Steam DRM It isn't about DRM. It's a simple business decision. Erik has stated that repeatedly and unambiguously. Steam distribution is not in Matrix's interest. He has all the demographic data on sales, and it is very much in his interest to maximize his profits. That he does not wish to enter into an less/unprofitable business arrangement should not come as a surprise. But then again, as you repeatedly state in your post - the Steam argument is a red herring. What you want is to pay $2 for DW. quote: ORIGINAL: Drexy 2)Devs won't profit as much due to valves cut Do you have any data to back that statement up? Erik (read as Matrix if you wish) has loads of demographic data. He has a business model that seems to be working for him. You, on the other hand, have ... what exactly? A couple of unsourced claims of stupendous sales and your own inestimable business acumen (or so you seem to think of your ability). Gee, I wonder which Matrix directors will put their trust in?

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/23/2013 3:56:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shark7 quote: ORIGINAL: AstroCat I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps. Hint: try "steam indie game success" google search, or anything similar. Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop. Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM). you have no idea what are you talking about. I hate those things too. Steam doesnt require the game to be only on steam. Stardock for example, sold their games on all digital distribution channels. AS WELL AS enabling registered owners download of updated versions from their servers. Also, I travel a lot. and take my laptop with me a lot for gaming between working hours. ITS NEVER ON internet. All my games are now on Steam. It works. Just works. no internet or with internet. Try it to see and then you will know.

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/23/2013 4:06:10 PM)
and I agree with all the arguments on low marketing of Matrix that has to be upped. I think that we are missing the stinkin' herring here. publisher fears it may become irrelevant if the steamscheme works too well....

whiran -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/23/2013 4:23:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz So, why then are you here whingeing? Is the only reason you've popped onto the forums, to whinge that Matrix's business model isn't right because it's not what you want? It seems that you have no locus standi. You're just here as a busybody/troll. Wait, because someone WANTS a game but is unhappy about the price point which is, as a comparative to the rest of the market, remarkably high they are a busybody/troll? My goodness, if I was an impartial third party reading this I might think your post is the trolling post. quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz You don't really care what distribution method they use, do you? What you really want is DW on the cheap. Is it a bad thing to want a game at a different price point? Distant Worlds -is- expensive. It is, for many people, ridiculously priced. Distant Worlds with all of its expansions costs ~$100 USD. Matrix does not believe in treating Distant Worlds as anything other than a niche product positioned exclusively as an expensive game. That's fine because, at this point, the PRICE has become something of a selling feature for the people who get it. quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz It isn't about DRM. It's a simple business decision. Erik has stated that repeatedly and unambiguously. Steam distribution is not in Matrix's interest. He has all the demographic data on sales, and it is very much in his interest to maximize his profits. That he does not wish to enter into an less/unprofitable business arrangement should not come as a surprise. But then again, as you repeatedly state in your post - the Steam argument is a red herring. What you want is to pay $2 for DW. I would argue that to reach a larger audience then using Steam, even at the $100 USD price point, is in Matrix's interests. Just because they refuse to accept that gaining access to a marketplace of over 11 million gamers is a good thing doesn't make them right. No one says that a game going on Steam -has- to be cheap in any way, shape, or form. Look at Planetary Annihilation. The Early Access price point is $90 USD and people bought into it. Even if the price point were to be reduced then making a sale at $50 USD is $50 USD MORE than what was had before. Matrix does a terrible job at marketing. That's plain and simple. The price point for Distant Worlds is outrageous in comparison to other games of a similar nature. But, even with that, Matrix still fails at marketing the game - no one except a very small group of gamers even knows about the title and what it is. That's failure. The fact that Matrix believes Historicon is their "major" event of the year is laughable. Historicon gets a total of 3500 to 4000 visitors over the course of three days. That's just over 1000 people per day. That includes children. We have events in the City that I live in for "Health and Wellness" that draw in over 15,000 people and the price to be at those events is the same as the ~$400 USD for a 10x10 presence at Historicon. From the site map of Historicon is looked like Matrix had a 5x10 presence tucked away at the side. That's the "major marketing event" for Matrix. And for that event almost all communications were shut down. Don't get me started on the "press releases" as per the news and announcements forum. [quote=Kayoz]Do you have any data to back that statement up? Erik (read as Matrix if you wish) has loads of demographic data. He has a business model that seems to be working for him. You, on the other hand, have ... what exactly? A couple of unsourced claims of stupendous sales and your own inestimable business acumen (or so you seem to think of your ability). Endless Space passed the 300,000 sales mark in March of 2013. Check out a search for Endless Space sales 300000 since I'm not allowed to post a link directly. Let's pretend that Amplitude Studios only made $10 USD per copy of Endless Space sold (the game sells for $30 USD, Steam probably takes 30% so that leaves $20 and then the game was rarely on sale for half off although at half off that still leaves Amplitude making $11.50 per copy sold but let's say $10 USD) then Amplitude Studios made 3 million dollars from Endless Space. That does not include sales of their recent DLC or sales from the Summer Sale where Endless Space was one of the top sellers when it was part of the daily special. Has Matrix made 3 million from Distant Worlds? Matrix is privately held and they have never announced sales numbers for Distant Worlds that I could find so I don't know. To make 3 million, Matrix would need to sell only 30,000 copies at $100 USD. People here claim that Distant Worlds is an amazing game. Okay, I pretty much believe that Distant Worlds is a good game from the Let's Plays that I've watched of it. So, why not release it to a larger audience? There is no good reason not to. Planetary Annihilation sold over 6000 copies on Steam at $90 a pop when it was opened up to Early Access. That's 6000 sales in a week at $90 for a game that is in alpha. That says a lot, to me, about what people are willing to pay on Steam. Just because a game goes to Steam does NOT mean that it has to be "cheap." Nor does it mean that anyone who wants the game to be available on Steam wants the game for $2 USD. That's a pretty absurd piece of "logic" to make. Even if we look at lowering the price to be something comparable with other products that still does not lead to $2 USD. I believe the term to be used here for your "argument" is reductio ad absurdum. If the game went to Steam at $100 USD, it would sell. If the game went to Steam at $60 USD, it would sell more. If the game went to Steam at $40 USD, it would sell even more. If the game went to Steam at $30 USD, it would sell even more more. The point of pricing, from a marketing standpoint, is to sell as many copies as one can to make the most money. The "art" in Marketing is figuring out how many people in each price bracket exist and sell to that bracket at its fullest potential before shifting the product to the next pricing bracket. Getting stuck in a bracket is a failure of marketing. Heck, even in Marketing 100 courses they talk about moving a product through its price points over the course of its lifespan. The argument that this is a niche product and complicated and wouldn't sell because of that or that the 'masses wouldn't understand it' is silly to me. Look at Crusader Kings II. That is a highly complicated, esoteric, and complex game to get into. That is a game that is very much NOT user friendly and yet it sells like hotcakes because, at the end of the day when you get into it, it's good. It's rich. It IS complex. If this game you all love known as Distant Worlds is as good as you claim it to be then other people will recognize it as well. Personally, I would bundle up the game and its expansions into a single package (which is what all major publishers do for a reason) and try to get it on Steam, Greenman Gaming, Gamer's Gate, and Amazon at either a $50 USD or $60 USD price point depending on the information provided / guidance provided by Steam. Heck, I might even list it at $100 USD and let the PRICE itself sell the product. The amount of "outrage" and buzz generated by that price point would be huge and the publicity would be everywhere. Since the game is a good one it would sell. Then, I would participate at the Winter Sale with a 50% off or maybe a 66% off. After the Sale, price would revert back to the 100 USD price point. Still, I, personally, would suggest listing the game at $50 or $60 as a 'gold' edition of the game (including all the "expansions") and let it experience a wider market. Anyway, this is all pent up annoyance that I have with Matrix because I see them making the same mistakes that I see other companies make with a good product and no idea how to move into a new market. Matrix claims that they are interested in broadening their market but they fail miserably at doing so. There are other games in the Matrix catalog that would sell like crazy... if they were marketed but they aren't so the games get an occasional mention at a gaming site, receive HUGE interest, and no one buys because the game isn't available. I'm looking at you Alpha Centauri 2 (Pandora: First Contact). Heck, that particular game has all the hallmarks of being vapourware even though it is, apparently, not - the lack of communication about it is that lacking. At one point I was ready to buy Distant Worlds and all expansions for $60. Now, even at that price point I am not that interested anymore - because of how Matrix behaves and mishandles their catalog of games. They are stuck in their mindset of making a niche game and selling it at a niche price. They cannot cross the chasm to making it big because of the way they limit themselves. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for Matrix since this appears to be what they want) their games will never make it huge. I suppose that isn't the goal anyway. So long as the games continue to iterate at a regular pace and cater to a small, but appreciative audience, job well done right? I know many companies that are happy to exist as small businesses catering to a small list of clientele without growing. There is, really, nothing wrong with being content with how things are. I thought this maybe was the case with Matrix but was told otherwise. :p I know there is a reluctance to move the price point too much because of a fear of alienating existing customers who DID pay the full amount. There are solutions to that as well. Easy ones. One just needs to be creative and realize that you can move out of a price bracket without upsetting people by recognizing what they have done for you.

Kayoz -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/23/2013 9:33:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Wait, because someone WANTS a game but is unhappy about the price point which is, as a comparative to the rest of the market, remarkably high they are a busybody/troll? Look up the meaning of "locus standi". It seems that you don't understand the term. Yes, Drexy has every right to whinge as much as he wants about the price of DW. He also has the right to whinge about the price of Dominos pizzas, Ferraris and the high cost of skydiving lessons. All those whinges have the same value - none. The whinges benefit nobody and ultimately serve no purpose. As such, I consider it trolling. The only point of the whingeing is to garner attention. I WANT the personal escort service prices of several porn stars to be lower. But for me to post on the forums that they are charging too much is absurd. It's their livelihood - their business - and as such, their choice. If anyone has contact with Nina Hartley, please pass on this request. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Is it a bad thing to want a game at a different price point? No. But it's pointless without offering a reasonable remedy for the complaint, such that Matrix will benefit from changing their business model. Drexy completely failed to present any facts to support his argument. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Matrix does not believe in treating Distant Worlds as anything other than a niche product positioned exclusively as an expensive game. That's fine because, at this point, the PRICE has become something of a selling feature for the people who get it. A high price is a "selling feature"??? You're saying that I-enjoyed- shelling out for all of DW? You're arguing that potential customers will be attracted by a high price? Please cite your source of this as a legitimate business model. And note, that DW is not a Gucci bag you can dangle on your shoulders to impress friends. Is DW a niche product? As it stands, I'd have to say YES. The gameplay time requirements are too high, the visual candy is too low, and the documentation obscure/non-existent for the learning curve to be surmountable for most players without resorting to forum posts. Erik has hinted that DW2 will address these and make it a more "mainstream" offering - but given the state of the game, I see little reason to disagree with the "niche product" classification. Ultimately, however, it's a question of demographics. How many potential customers are there, how does one market to them and how does pricing affect their buying decisions. Those questions are far more important to how one positions, markets and prices a game than whether or not it is a "niche product". So I put it to you, that Erik has the demographic information on his target customers and you do not. Refute this is you like. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran I would argue that to reach a larger audience then using Steam, even at the $100 USD price point, is in Matrix's interests. Clearly, they have not come to the same conclusion. They, I have every reason to believe, every reason to want to increase their profits. They have looked into Steam distribution, crunched the numbers, and decided not to pursue it. That they have all the information available to them and you do not, should be a clear indication to anyone which is more likely to be correct. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Just because they refuse to accept that gaining access to a marketplace of over 11 million gamers is a good thing doesn't make them right. It`s in their interest to be right. They have the data to determine if such a decision would be "right" for them. Yet your continued argument on this issue seems to indicate that you STILL do not accept their decision - despite them having every reason to make the decision that is most profitable and which will increase their market share. I sincerely hope you don't consider your refusal, to accept their facts-based decision, to be a refusal that any right-minded reader would consider to be "reasonable". quote: ORIGINAL: whiran No one says that a game going on Steam -has- to be cheap in any way, shape, or form. That, indeed, is the core of Drexy's dispute. The price. It's quite clear from his post that the Steam, the DRM and marketing issues are red herrings. What he wants is clear - he wants DW on the cheap. He went so far as to lump pricing and Steam distribution into the same point in his brief list of complaints. If Matrix were to distribute on Steam and leave their prices unchanged, he would STILL be complaining. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Matrix does a terrible job at marketing. That's plain and simple. There's room for improvement, I agree. Much room. But they have improved vastly in the last 2 years, particularly. Hopefully Erik will continue this trend. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran no one except a very small group of gamers even knows about the title and what it is. That's failure. I disagree. The real question of failure/success is profitability. Not, as you assert, public awareness. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran The fact that Matrix believes Historicon is their "major" event of the year is laughable. Historicon gets a total of 3500 to 4000 visitors over the course of three days. That's just over 1000 people per day. That includes children. We have events in the City that I live in for "Health and Wellness" that draw in over 15,000 people and the price to be at those events is the same as the ~$400 USD for a 10x10 presence at Historicon. From the site map of Historicon is looked like Matrix had a 5x10 presence tucked away at the side. That's the "major marketing event" for Matrix. And for that event almost all communications were shut down. Don't get me started on the "press releases" as per the news and announcements forum. The ultimate size of the audience is determined by the "reach" of those attending the conference. 3500-4000 might seem a trivial number - but if you consider the number of those who are bloggers or operators of game review sites, the number they can reach is significant. The White House press briefing room is a small and crowded place with only a few dozen people - which in your argument - would make it insignificant compared to the number of viewers of any capable street performer on a weekend afternoon. Spandy Andy's performance is, you would say, more significant than the White House - woo! quote: ORIGINAL: whiran ...then Amplitude Studios made 3 million dollars from Endless Space. That's all that needs to be said about your ES example. That you believe the full revenue from sales goes into Amplitude's pockets says all that needs to be said about your understanding of business costs and distribution contracts. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Has Matrix made 3 million from Distant Worlds? Matrix is privately held and they have never announced sales numbers for Distant Worlds that I could find so I don't know. That's the core problem I have with your position. You do not know. They do. And yet you dispute their business model. You repeatedly, ad nauseum, claim that their decisions are unwise. But you have no information to back up your claim. And that's not addressing your difficulties with costs (no, it's not all profit as you seem to assert). quote: ORIGINAL: whiran To make 3 million, Matrix would need to sell only 30,000 copies at $100 USD. If such were the case, Code Force would have some very pointed questions for Matrix. You seem to ignore the developer's royalties.... as well as any other costs. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran So, why not release it to a larger audience? There is no good reason not to. See above, on market demographics. It's a business decision. One made based on the data available to Matrix. Data which Erik has stated, is quite substantial. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Just because a game goes to Steam does NOT mean that it has to be "cheap." I don't know how Steam pricing is determined. Their wording is vague and subject to a great deal of interpretation. But as Drexy went to great pains to point out, his disagreement is the price - not the distribution platform. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran If the game went to Steam at $100 USD, it would sell. If the game went to Steam at $60 USD, it would sell more. If the game went to Steam at $40 USD, it would sell even more. If the game went to Steam at $30 USD, it would sell even more more. Revenue does not equal profit. Matrix is in business to make a profit. They are not in business for revenue. If lower prices do not equal increased profits, then there is no reason for them to lower prices. You have completely failed to realize this. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran The point of pricing, from a marketing standpoint, is to sell as many copies as one can to make the most money. Profit. Not revenue. Increasing sales volume at the cost of profit, would be called, to use business technical terms, a stupid decision. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran The "art" in Marketing is figuring out how many people in each price bracket exist and sell to that bracket at its fullest potential before shifting the product to the next pricing bracket. I absolutely agree. And Erik has a great deal of information on which to base that decision. You do not. And yet you continue to assert that you know better. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran The argument that this is a niche product and complicated and wouldn't sell because of that or that the 'masses wouldn't understand it' is silly to me. I think it's safe to assume that Matrix has done market studies on which to determine DW's appeal. This is silly by your point of view. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Personally, I would bundle up the game and its expansions into a single package I believe Erik has stated that this (a "gold" edition) is on the map. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Heck, I might even list it at $100 USD and let the PRICE itself sell the product. The amount of "outrage" and buzz generated by that price point would be huge and the publicity would be everywhere. See above, regarding my request for a source to support your assertion that high pricing increases sales. Paula Deen, by your argument, should be on the marketing gravy train for life. Strangely enough, she does not seem to be happy with all the attention she is getting. Mysterious, isn't it? quote: ORIGINAL: whiran ... no idea how to move into a new market. ... they fail miserably at doing so. I'm looking at you Alpha Centauri 2 (Pandora: First Contact). Heck, that particular game has all the hallmarks of being vapourware even though it is, apparently, not - the lack of communication about it is that lacking. I would argue that strategy gaming is older, by far, than "action" gaming. How old is chess? It's new, by your statement. Pandora is in beta. Hyping it at this point would be premature. But suggesting it will fill the boots of SMAC is, I believe, overly hopeful. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran Now, even at that price point I am not that interested anymore - because of how Matrix behaves and mishandles their catalog of games. So it's not the price. It's not the distribution. Your decision not to purchase DW was based on ... their marketing practices? You are very confusing. You repeatedly assert that price is the major issue. And then state that, for you, it is not. Whaaaaattt? quote: ORIGINAL: whiran ...their games will never make it huge. I suppose that isn't the goal anyway. Erik has been very clear on this. It is his goal. You suppose wrongly. quote: ORIGINAL: whiran So long as the games continue to iterate at a regular pace and cater to a small, but appreciative audience, job well done right? Wrong. I would guess that Erik would be gnashing his teeth if he reads this. I'm quite sure he'd love to make millions of sales and dominate the market. I'm quite sure he'd love to fill his bath with MONEY and eat cakes decorated with candles of burning MONEY, carried by scantily clad women (or men - Erik's preference being unknown) garbed in bikinis made of MONEY. Your position, that such is not his goal, is absurd.

Icemania -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/24/2013 9:09:18 AM)
I don't want to get into the specific and amusing debate in recent posts but will simply say it would be great to have far larger group of people playing the game and being active on the forum. In parallel, since I'm in dream mode, I'd love to see a development team in place around Elliott (e.g. bringing in a 4X AI guru!) engaging with the community for ideas on DW2. Given we probably all share variations on this theme let's return to a more constructive space. I'm not in the industry but must admit to surprise that there are so few reviews for this game ... after stumbling upon it by chance personally. I know Matrix have sent Shadows around (etc), but as one of the better games in the genre, is there anything more Matrix realistically could do here? Some broader select advertising? Review tours with any of the majors that show even the slightest interest etc? How does Stardrive get so many reviews, while Shadows get so few? i.e. I'm suggesting we move on from the Steam debate.

turtlefang -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/24/2013 11:28:33 PM)
What you are suggesting is called "unearned media". It means getting press exposure without paying any money for it. And there are a lot of proven approaches to getting unearned media. It isn't rocket science. It is usually used by people who don't have a large advertising budget or a specialized product but can afford someone full time to pound the concrete to drum up: 1)interviews, 2)reviews, 3)press mentions, 4)create press releases, 5)speaker placement at events or on panels, 6)write a blog, 7)or even write articles that others can publish under their byline 8)establish "advisory councils" for input or suggestions into the game or future games from industry writers, reviewers and experts to raise their interest and likelihood of writing about it, 9)writing guest articles for magazines or online review publishers But its not free. You have to have someone working the phones, developing a relationship with reviewers and writers, etc.. In this case, your trading labor and time for advertising dollars. Most writers and publishers are always looking for something to write about so it works. But again, you have to work it - they won't come to you regardless of how good the game is or is perceived to be unless it is one of the "hottest" topics out there. Sometimes people call it "Guerilla Marketing". Although that term is going out of fashion now. Some people now call it "Social Marketing" but term actually means something else - a little similar but with a much different focus.

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 8:25:47 AM)
It's Steam. and putting an exorbitant price on beta product, thuus earning a lot of interest in players and reviewers (reffering to the unusual review number for Stardrive). As to revenue/profit discussion, I'm sorry to hear that two posts up guy doesn't have more information about profits from Steam sales. I fortunately have some info, and can't disclose it, but suffice it to say that contrary to votes of many Stardock customers, they moved SOLELY to steam selling from 2013th year and into future. They didn't do it for low profit reasons. Stardock forums have their CEO's explanation about it which TOUCHES parts of revenue/profit relation. I am almost positive that Matrix is afraid of moving to Steam and other digital sales shops because their middle-man-role might become less significant. I would definitely like to see Erik from Matrix to explain, ad nauseam, all the details of their reluctance to go digital other then Matrix shop. I would then accet the decision and say no more. Otherwise, everyone will see the stinky fish around every corner....and I will fail to get more people play and pay for Stardrive, such an excellent game.... Hell, a lot of people would buy it for 100$ steam; 70$ they would make that way (even if 50:50 split to Code devs) would be more then they are selling today. Are they even selling any today? How many shadows have they sold? I'd bet less then few hundred.

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 1:38:48 PM)
I just listened to Erik giving interview with Space game junkie, and he definitely didn't give one reason why not. I got the impression that Matrix is guarding developers from overexposure because that might make them stop making games like they are doing, as opposed to going some other venue ....strange to hear such remarks. Its available on itunes podcasts SGJ podcast, #21, last few minutes if anyone is interested. I'll reiterate. Erik, if you find the community trustworthy and grown up as majority, please explain what do you find not acceptable by putting Distant wars to other distribution channels knowing "the demographics of the people who (NOW) play the game". thanx.

Plant -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 1:41:13 PM)
I don't understand what business it is of yours to concern yourself with the running of other people's well, business.

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 3:54:09 PM)
it's rather simple answer - my bussiness is to have my friends to have fun with such a game; they actualy expect it of me to help them out. So I do it.

Strat_84 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 4:12:05 PM)
And not having this game on Steam prevents your friends from having fun ? Poor dudes ... [:o]

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 4:43:29 PM)
Yeah, por them. many of them travel a lot, mobile steam comformity for offline and online games adheres to their wallets a lot. Actualy, along myself, we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN to have the mobile library and ease of access anywhere we want. matrix digital store is too obscure for them to try. not me, but, as I prviously mentioned. but I digress, my main wish is to understand. I presume none of you can give answer, so I'll wait....actualy. I never saw anyone post why not on steam, except "it's their decision"...some arguments against steam that were raised are invalid, because posters didn't know that they didn't know what were they saying...

pmelheck1 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 5:20:25 PM)
we are beating this dead horse again? Hmmm. Panzer Corps was put on green light on steam a much more main stream and lower priced game for you low price gamers out there. Can you please point me to the steam page for it? It must have been approved in hours of posting according to some voices on this board.

Darkspire -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 5:43:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel Yeah, por them. many of them travel a lot, mobile steam comformity for offline and online games adheres to their wallets a lot. Actualy, along myself, we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN to have the mobile library and ease of access anywhere we want. Am I missing something? You can download the DW games you have purchased from the matrix site as long as you are registered and logged in when you make your purchase, so you can download them from anywhere you want, home or on the road. The steam client does the same thing, except that you need the steam client installed. Not to sure if the client automatically installs the game as well though, I have heard it auto updates games, so not to sure what the problem is if you travel and want to download it? Yet again though I am confused as I can not understand why someone who travels would need to either uninstall DW before they went on there travels with there PC / laptop, do they buy a new PC / laptop each time they go off or does steam delete the files when you are so many miles away from the original purchase IP address? In which case you need to install the steam client each time and the game you want to play, with getting DW from Matrix it is downloading the game only and installing that, surely that has to be easier, and once it is installed they can travel all over the place and will have no need to keep installing there favorite games. quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz If anyone has contact with Nina Hartley, please pass on this request. That really does need ironing, she has more wrinkles than a Darby and Jones club outing to Seaford [:D] Darkspire

Kayoz -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 6:15:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel guarding developers from overexposure because that might make them stop making games like they are doing No, he did not imply that. Go back and listen to it again. He talked about how Matrix approaches marketing and distribution for each game individually to reach the greatest audience and generate the most profit - for them and the developer. He starts into it about 1:02 into the podcast. quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel my bussiness is to have my friends to ... You have friends? Will wonders never cease! quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel adheres to their wallets a lot. In English? I have no idea what you mean by that. quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN Coming from a self-admitted pirate, I'll keep my credulity in check. Aah.. but it's "we bought"... which could mean another round of offline mode LAN gaming sessions using the same account. Pool your money and buy one game on one account and everyone plays it. How silly of me not to see the obvious. But on your wording, you might note that you haven't actually bought anything. You've licensed the use of the game. If for any reason, Steam decides to nuke your account - all your games are gone. On the other hand, I have bought DW. It is mine and there is little Matrix can do if they regret that decision. I own. You license. See the difference? quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel ease of access anywhere we want. You mean like... at you place playing on your LAN with all of you using the same account? Is that one of the places? quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel matrix digital store is too obscure for them to try. It's a bog-standard ecommerce setup. If they find it "obscure", I can only guess at the horror they must feel when confronted with bizarre creations like Amazon or eBay. Those are far too "obscure" to be understood by the majority of people with an IQ over 40, yes? quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel I never saw anyone post why not on steam, except "it's their decision"...some arguments against steam that were raised are invalid, because posters didn't know that they didn't know what were they saying... Erik was very clear on the issue. He's analyzed DW distribution on Steam and decided it wasn't in Matrix's interest. Interest == profit - he's been crystal clear on that. I don't see how he could be any more clear than that. Were you expecting him to post a full business analysis? As to the "never saw an argument why not" statement - the issue I and others raised is that it's a business decision. A decision that Erik has all the facts necessary to determine what is "right". Some people insist that they know better than him what is good for his (supposedly one of the founders of Matrix) company - without access to the facts he used in his decision. Without access to the Steam contract. Or if you prefer more blunt wording - Some people think they know better than him while knowing nothing at all.

Kayoz -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 6:36:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mullk we are beating this dead horse again? Alas, as they say, "Fools rush in where fools have been before."

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 7:13:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz You have friends? Will wonders never cease! Plain rude. You probably have fun days everyday being surprised in such a way with people around you having friends? Or maybe it's just you? quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN Coming from a self-admitted pirate, I'll keep my credulity in check. What pirating are you refering to?? Are you nuts? I bought boxed versions of games and bought them again on steam to have everything in one library easy to install without hassle wherever I end up being? As to MP in LAN in offline mode I'm reffering to my kids and me and games that allow such things? Those that don't, I've bought several copies even for my family although I didn't have to? Anger much? quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz Aah.. but it's "we bought"... which could mean another round of offline mode LAN gaming sessions using the same account. Pool your money and buy one game on one account and everyone plays it. How silly of me not to see the obvious. Paranoia much? Luckily to my job and earnings, I really don't require help in that department....Actualy, I buy and gift games to others less capable of such endeavours in this time of crysis. quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz But on your wording, you might note that you haven't actually bought anything. You've licensed the use of the game. If for any reason, Steam decides to nuke your account - all your games are gone. On the other hand, I have bought DW. It is mine and there is little Matrix can do if they regret that decision. I own. You license. See the difference? Unfortunately for your argument - not true. There is a EC regulation requiring a time period of support and download for publishers, which Steam and others selling in EU also adhere to, as well as I buy and register games with companies that also allow and provide with separate DL links if required or automaticaly. If they decide to nuke my account, and I haven't done anything to provoke it - there are ways to get that undone. And, I do have several PCs with installed folders of my games that accidentaly work without steam and even when just copied around. I am extremely pleased for you that you "grabbed" your copy while you can. I grabbed several of MY copies too. quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel ease of access anywhere we want. You mean like... at you place playing on your LAN with all of you using the same account? Is that one of the places? Do the ICD search. I can help professionaly. Take the F department. No need to pay for advice. Just be sure to take the meds afterwards. On another note, feel free to visit. My home is your home. We can be friends, you know. Bury the axes etc. Have fun. quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel I never saw anyone post why not on steam, except "it's their decision"...some arguments against steam that were raised are invalid, because posters didn't know that they didn't know what were they saying... Erik was very clear on the issue. He's analyzed DW distribution on Steam and decided it wasn't in Matrix's interest. Interest == profit - he's been crystal clear on that. I don't see how he could be any more clear than that. Were you expecting him to post a full business analysis? As to the "never saw an argument why not" statement - the issue I and others raised is that it's a business decision. A decision that Erik has all the facts necessary to determine what is "right". Some people insist that they know better than him what is good for his (supposedly one of the founders of Matrix) company - without access to the facts he used in his decision. Without access to the Steam contract. Or if you prefer more blunt wording - Some people think they know better than him while knowing nothing at all. On that note, I'd like to see answers to a few more visely written posts of people with knowledge, for example whiran hammer58 historyis etc a question for example, why not having both models of sales? noone expects a bussiness analysis, we would like though to have those few points replied to. Steam contracts are secret to those that sign them. Matrix didn't so....I fail to see the relevance of not saying why that model isn't appropriate for Matrix publisher? To your opinion I will only say - time will tell....

Kayoz -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 7:57:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz Coming from a self-admitted pirate, I'll keep my credulity in check. What pirating are you refering to?? ... As to MP in LAN in offline mode I'm reffering to my kids and me and games that allow such things? Those that don't, I've bought several copies even for my family although I didn't have to? It's in violation of your Steam EULA. As I wrote in the linked thread - Playing a game on multiple PCs at the same time -REQUIRES- multiple game purchases to cover each and every one of those PCs. Or such is the position of 2K Games. "Can multiple users play simultaneously on one Steam account?" https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=8963-EIKC-3767 How much more explicit an answer do you want than that? If you -REALLY- think it's allowable - then post the question directly to Steam tech support and see what they say. quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel quote: ORIGINAL: Kayoz But on your wording, you might note that you haven't actually bought anything. You've licensed the use of the game. If for any reason, Steam decides to nuke your account - all your games are gone. On the other hand, I have bought DW. It is mine and there is little Matrix can do if they regret that decision. I own. You license. See the difference? Unfortunately for your argument - not true. There is a EC regulation requiring a time period of support and download for publishers, which Steam and others selling in EU also adhere to, as well as I buy and register games with companies that also allow and provide with separate DL links if required or automaticaly. Wrong. Or so Steam contends. Penny Arcade has an article on the dispute currently being fought in Germany. As to your consumer rights, this article from Rock Paper Shotgun shows just how "customer friendly" they are. You do not own your Steam games. They are not yours. You cannot sell them. You cannot trade them. You cannot loan them. Their use is for you (the account holder) and you alone. quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel ...my games that accidentaly work without steam and even when just copied around. Your previous post indicated that you specifically had configured your settings for several people to play the same game at the same time on the same account in offline mode. This is about as "accidental" as the NSA reading your email. quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel I'd like to see answers to a few more visely written posts of people with knowledge, for example... You fail to include Erik's own posts on his own explanations for his decisions. That says all that needs to be said about what information you select to read. quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel Steam contracts are secret to those that sign them. Matrix didn't so....I fail to see the relevance of not saying why that model isn't appropriate for Matrix publisher? Erik himself has posted that Steam distribution was not in Matrix nor Code Force's interest. Do you really need it spelled out more unequivocally than that?

Athelas2211 -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/25/2013 10:05:41 PM)
yes, I need it spelled in more understandable language with explanation, since noone here understands how or why it wouldn't be in their interest or the more players that unfortunately miss the game as it is. too busy watching a movie with wife to continue debating with you. Hopefully, steam digital games will be resellable, but even if not, it's my choice to use it and like what I do or not. Try it, you might even like it. as I PMed you, Ill give you a game for testing. Feel free to add me as a friend, if eve for game donation purposes.

Kayoz -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/26/2013 12:05:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel yes, I need it spelled in more understandable language with explanation, since noone here understands how or why it wouldn't be in their interest or the more players that unfortunately miss the game as it is. Less. Profit. With. Steam. Simple enough for you? Or as Erik wrote: we are very open-minded about how to make Distant Worlds as successful as possible. As the publisher, we have explored other distribution options and that does include Steam (not just for this game but for other games as well). It's not the slam dunk for DW that it may appear to be at first glance, but it is an option we will keep evaluating and that door is not closed for the future. We'll always do whatever it takes to maximize the success of Distant Worlds - each decision we make is based on the evaluation of what will give it the greatest success now and in the future. If you still don't get it, then I'll leave it to you to suss out the meaning of the four devilishly difficult words at the start of this post. I can't help you on this further. I am not qualified to do so. quote: ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel Hopefully, steam digital games will be resellable, but even if not, it's my choice to use it and like what I do or not. Hopefully. For the sake of their customers. But I fail to find it reassuring that the company you love so much will only allow their customers their basic consumer rights when forced to do so by a court order.

Icemania -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/26/2013 1:25:51 AM)
Brings the Popcorn. [:D]

Icemania -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/26/2013 1:47:59 AM)
Thanks turtlefang. It certainly seems like Stardrive has drummed-up a lot more "unearned media" than Distant Worlds. I still can't believe they have 15 pages of review links on their forum, while Distant Worlds Shadows has just a handful. Being new to Matrix, I think it's legitimate to question their performance in this respect i.e. to at least achieve a similar level to Stardrive. I fully understand this doesn't come for "free", of course, but I'm sure there are many supporters out there that remain completely unaware of this game. I worry that the small base of supporters here is just not enough to justify the DW2 that I would like to see i.e. bringing in some AI specialists, graphics specialists ... not to make iterative improvements, but to raise these aspects to another class entirely.

Kayoz -> RE: Niche game or undermarketed? (7/26/2013 3:12:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania Brings the Popcorn. [:D] So cynical! Alas, I fear there will be little entertainment value for your popcorn. Same tired argument... quote: ORIGINAL: Icemania Being new to Matrix, I think it's legitimate to question their performance in this respect i.e. to at least achieve a similar level to Stardrive. I fully understand this doesn't come for "free", of course, but I'm sure there are many supporters out there that remain completely unaware of this game. As a point of comparison between Matrix and a game developer (not of the same genre, admittedly) which is running a fairly aggressive social media campaign - Matrix Games 2,428 likes � 86 talking about this Undead Labs 18,996 likes � 1,271 talking about this They have interviews with the devs, streaming Q&A sessions, fan artwork contests and silly/humorous posts to keep people's interest and activity up. On their own website, they update with news twice a week or so. Whereas Matrix has... a couple of announcements and generic marketing spiel that's generates little in the way of comments or feedback. The results speak for themselves. Matrix could learn a lesson or two from them on how to use social media. Again, we're not talking the same market size nor demographics, but I can't help but to wonder what Matrix's sales might be like were they to use similar methods.

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