goose chasing ships (Full Version)

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YourConscience -> goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 12:18:54 PM)

Playing as a pirate, I have a fleet of let's say 20 ships. I send them to raid some colony. They fly and get there, kill the star base and unload their assault pods. And then, instead of staying in orbit they do either of two things:

- if there are space creatures in the system, they wander off one by one in attempts to kill these space creatures. Especially in the beginning of the game, when the ships are not really good yet, they often get eaten or crippled in the process. In the mean-time the raiding troops loose their space control bonus. All this despite the fleet not being on automated, and the posture set to defend and system only (smallest focus I could find). If there are enemy ships or bases, they do the same, goose chasing through the system and never collecting back at the planet where I left them.

- if there are no space creatures or enemy ships they remain sitting. ... While the planet continues its orbit. So the troops loose their space bonus again. So usually I have to micromanage such raids by getting there as well, waiting for all assault pods to unload, and then manually telling them to orbit the planet. Which they will only obey in the second case. In the first case they will first take orbit, then immediately wander off on their goose-chases.

It would really be nice if this could be improved...



Mansen -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 12:24:33 PM)

Curious : What setting is your fleet behaviour set to? You can force your fleets not to wander off and "patrol the system" when doing certain tasks.



sanderz -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 12:43:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mansen

Curious : What setting is your fleet behaviour set to? You can force your fleets not to wander off and "patrol the system" when doing certain tasks.


how do you do this exactly?

only i tell a fleet to "Patrol" a planet so i can gain control but they always wander off to any threat and get them selves killed whilst my attention is diverted elseware

many thanks



Bingeling -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 1:08:14 PM)

The "hunt for prey" is a bit tricky. You can modify their stance to "engage when attacked".

To stay at a colony (or any planetary body), make sure to "move to" with an order. That should get them stuck. Otherwise, when invading, "blockade" is a nice option. They may still kill mines and get killed by wildlife, but they should maintain ship presence.



sanderz -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 1:16:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

The "hunt for prey" is a bit tricky. You can modify their stance to "engage when attacked".

To stay at a colony (or any planetary body), make sure to "move to" with an order. That should get them stuck. Otherwise, when invading, "blockade" is a nice option. They may still kill mines and get killed by wildlife, but they should maintain ship presence.




thanks for the info

i have been using 'patrol' a planet because i assumed if you 'move' there then you stay there and the planet moves away from you, or are you saying they still orbit the planet?



Neman -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 1:22:57 PM)

I have run into this issue as well and regardless of how i play with the postures or stances, it still seems quirky.

Basically, as soon as you get your warp engine, spawn a space creature somewhere in the system. I have everything on manual, here are the results:

Ships not in a fleet:
- As soon as they are created, they warp to the space creature and get killed.
- Stance set to attack only when attacked, they warp to the space creature.

Ships in a fleet:
- As soon as they are created, they warp to the space creature and get killed.
- Set posture to defensive, target only, the ships are created and still warp to target.
- Any variation of fleet posture results in them eventually warping to the target, even without auto on (which is the most curious part)

This annoyed me to hell in my last game because i needed to build a fleet of 10 ships to kill the giant kaltors in the same system and each time a ship was built it would fly to its death. I would think that a ship set to full manual, not a part of a fleet, would simply sit at the starport awaiting a command.

I tested this several times by spawning space creatures in the system. The only way i was able to get my ships to assemble was to wait for each batch to be built, hit stop movement, patrol a planet, and wait for the next batch to come finish. When all were done, i had enough to attack.

Seems a bit buggy to me, if i create a ship with no orders and not on auto, it should sit there and wait for me unless something attacks it directly.



sanderz -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 1:28:00 PM)

I don't remember having these sorts of problems before Shadows, so presumably something has changed in the way the the games been programmed?



Bingeling -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 1:34:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

The "hunt for prey" is a bit tricky. You can modify their stance to "engage when attacked".

To stay at a colony (or any planetary body), make sure to "move to" with an order. That should get them stuck. Otherwise, when invading, "blockade" is a nice option. They may still kill mines and get killed by wildlife, but they should maintain ship presence.



thanks for the info

i have been using 'patrol' a planet because i assumed if you 'move' there then you stay there and the planet moves away from you, or are you saying they still orbit the planet?

I never give patrol orders in my games.

If you "move to planet", they should join the planet movement. I am not sure if they join if you "go to spaceport". If you have a fleet that you want to refuel at arrival, and stay at planet, the refuel order will have them exit the colony/spaceport and stay dead in space, watching the planet leave. So queue "move to planet" after a refuel order.

What will make defenders lose the planet, is the leader jumping off to chase that pirate explorer that dropped by. He will not return without some sort of order, and the rest of the fleet will go to leader (they always do that if idle).

I find that it matters quite a lot if the fleet is at the colony or not, when some sort of attack happens. Defending a gas mine? Again, move to planet. Clouds don't move I think, so those are easy.



Bingeling -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 1:35:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz

I don't remember having these sorts of problems before Shadows, so presumably something has changed in the way the the games been programmed?

I have not noticed anything different from Legends. Apart from the need of staying at colonies, since pirates did not raid in Legends... Defending a colony from invasions had exactly the same issues of having to be careful about making ships stay at the colony, and not drift off.



sanderz -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 1:36:30 PM)

thankyou - that helps a lot, will give it a go when next in game



sanderz -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 3:48:48 PM)

well theres good news and bad news

GOOD - as suggested changing to attack when engaged stops ships flying off to die a lonley pointless death

BUT

BAD things happen when/after they engage an enemy
a) First off if its a fleet only individual ships attack - i would expect the whole fleet to move as soon as any one of the fleet come under attack
b) The engagement stance resets to nearby or system
c) They lose their "move to" order

this all makes for a lot of micromanagement :(



Bingeling -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 3:52:16 PM)

Yes, it sucks quite a bit. I suggest you clean up the system manually before having stuff parked in it. That won't stop pirate attacks and pirate exploration, though.

And if attacks happen, they are likely spend significant time looking confused around themselves, and when finally they do react they decide that "two ships is enough for that one", while the other 8 sit idle, and watch the escort manage to drop its raiding force...



Spacecadet -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 4:38:46 PM)

You could increase your "Overkill" factor.

By default it's 2:1, increasing it will cause more firepower (ships) to engage targets.




Bingeling -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/28/2013 4:55:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet

You could increase your "Overkill" factor.

By default it's 2:1, increasing it will cause more firepower (ships) to engage targets.

Of course. Let me readjust.

3 tries to stop it, while the 7 others watch it land its raid force.

I would love a "guard" order. Given to a fleet, it will sit quite silent waiting, and when something happens it will attack as a fleet. Once the threat is over, it returns. When a few raiders appear at the colony, there is no reason for every ship not trying to stop it. Overmatch should decide how they split their forces across the attackers.

I suspect that a powerful battle fleet is a worse guard against pirate raiders, than a smaller frigate fleet.

16 cruisers and carriers sit at the colony. Pirate escort arrives. Who is picked to react? It is random, is there a guarantee that the closest one will? I doubt so. How many cruisers/carriers does it take to create a 5:1 overmatch on an escort? About 1.

If it is 4 frigates, most of them will probably be used to stop the escort, since they are less powerful. With luck, they are fast enough and close enough to stop it.

A part of the issue is "lazy" ships, fixes towards this is done in patches. A part of the issue is overmatch stopping efficient defense. Since I tend to micro manage defense, I have lots of chance to see the "before and after" effects of a manual attack order on fleet level. The difference is between weak attackers cruising between powerful ships, and smokes of dust between powerful ships.



Kobracan -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/29/2013 12:05:16 AM)

So what is the purpose of the "Patrol" order? My intuition says "Move" should be "move somewhere and stay there" while "Patrol" should be "move somewhere, stay there and protect that thing (i.e. attack stuff that shows up around that thing). However, what I am reading here is people suggest we should use "Move" order instead of "Patrol" order. Am I misunderstanding it? What does "Patrol" do then?

I think most people here are looking for an order that will: move somewhere, stay with that thing as it orbits, and protect that thing (i.e. attack stuff that shows up around that thing). So basically, the guard order that's mentioned above.



Bingeling -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/29/2013 12:07:01 AM)

I have not used patrol, as the only benefit I see is that it burns fuel...
It could be that improves response times. I somehow doubt it.



Neman -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/29/2013 12:30:52 AM)

Patrol default settings can be changed for engage system targets to engage nearby targets.



Kobracan -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/29/2013 12:33:58 AM)

So I looked up mission types in Galactopedia:

Move:
Sends the ship to the specified destination. If the destination is far away then the ship may perform a hyperjump first. This mission is available to all ships.

Patrol:
Causes the ship to orbit the specified colony or base, watching for enemies. You can assign Patrol missions to military ships when the mouse hovers over a colony or base of your empire.

This is what it says. So Patrol should do what we want based on this description. Maybe there is a problem/bug with it?



sanderz -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/29/2013 6:50:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Yes, it sucks quite a bit. I suggest you clean up the system manually before having stuff parked in it. That won't stop pirate attacks and pirate exploration, though.

And if attacks happen, they are likely spend significant time looking confused around themselves, and when finally they do react they decide that "two ships is enough for that one", while the other 8 sit idle, and watch the escort manage to drop its raiding force...


i posted this in the tech forum and it seems its going to be addresses in the next patch



Bingeling -> RE: goose chasing ships (5/29/2013 9:06:38 AM)

You are a bit too optimistic, I think. Expect the "emergency patches" after release to end before this is looked at. At least.



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