What's the point of having different transports? (Full Version)

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Tyrador -> What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 9:02:05 AM)

I never understood what is the point of having different transport classes (light, medium, heavy)? Any ideas?



joeyeti -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 9:15:34 AM)

I guess cost, maintenance etc.

Sure, you can build 50 Large freighters and have them go around making stuff (as the human player), but for AI optimization purposes I guess the various sizes are used as the situation dictates (as to how, that is another matter and a question for the developers). From this POV you can also for instance only use Destroyers ever in the game (or switch to Frigates or Capitals once available), but again - due to resource demands, size constraints and maintenance you can mix-and-match...



moonraker65 -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 9:50:10 AM)

Once your empire gets larger and you've researched the necessary tech it's quite handy to re-engineer the starting freighter designs so that they can carry more and go further I find.



Tyrador -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 9:53:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joeyeti

I guess cost, maintenance etc.

Sure, you can build 50 Large freighters and have them go around making stuff (as the human player), but for AI optimization purposes I guess the various sizes are used as the situation dictates (as to how, that is another matter and a question for the developers). From this POV you can also for instance only use Destroyers ever in the game (or switch to Frigates or Capitals once available), but again - due to resource demands, size constraints and maintenance you can mix-and-match...


Military ships division to me is slightly more obvious, due use of different weapon combinations on each of them, i cannot say the same about freighters.

Just, i thought about this more in frame with the smuggling missions, as it is much more effective to use large freighters there.

It's interesting what Erik will tell about this, i'm sure there is a specific reason for this division (at least for private ships).

quote:

ORIGINAL: moonraker

Once your empire gets larger and you've researched the necessary tech it's quite handy to re-engineer the starting freighter designs so that they can carry more and go further I find.


Yeah, i do the same, it allocates resources much better. I've done 600 size freighters at late game...that's was epic fail however.



adecoy95 -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 9:55:04 AM)

its not a bad idea to play around with the 3 designs, just be careful not to make any ship types that are much larger than the rest of the civilian designs, it will consume a disproportionate percent of your civilian sectors income and cause weird things to happen



Bingeling -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 10:28:48 AM)

The freighter sizes could make total sense if the system used them according to size, but I don't think it does. Also, it does make sense to wait for a small freighter to bring a mining station 4 missing silicon for retrofit, if there is an idle large nearby.

You could imagine small freighters fetching at mining stations, large freighters balancing loads between transport hubs, and mediums fetching and delivering goods between hub and each colony. But the game is not working quite like that. Or the exceptions are too numerous to notice that it tries to ;-)



TrooperCooper -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 10:39:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

The freighter sizes could make total sense if the system used them according to size, but I don't think it does.


^^ Reason why I design all my freighter types the same. They are just named "Freighter A" (large), "Freighter B" (medium) and "Freighter C" (small) but have the exact same component loadout fitted.



Gareth_Bryne -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 12:59:50 PM)

A larger freighter uses up more fuel, which in turn may lead to resource shortages, so a division into small-medium-large does make sense, IF the system works.



Plant -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 2:32:16 PM)

Except that most of fuel usage for freighters are in hyperdrive usage, and that larger freighters should be more fuel efficient per resources transfered.

In the end, there's no reason for their existence, same with with the military ship design and usage, except for ambience.



Constantine XI -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 3:14:47 PM)

This is a very interesting discussion. I just kind of assumed that it made sense to have various levels. Would be nice to know if there is any actual gameplay considerations behind it. Cost does make sense, but I'm curious about the cost / benefit of several small freighters versus one large freighter. Also the logistics of fuel, docking space, etc. I'm also ok with it if it is largely a flavor kind of thing, as it feels more interesting and realistic.



Shark7 -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 3:38:42 PM)

Variety is the spice of life?

Honestly, 1 type of freighter would probably be sufficient, but it is kind of a waste to use a large freighter with 5k cargo space to transport 100 units of steel, etc.



Tyrador -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 3:47:59 PM)

DW now is really really complex, it would be wise to narrow down freighters to just one medium sized freighter. Unless there will be patch which will make AI smart enough to play on transport size benefits. I would get rid of escorts as well, they are too weak to be any use, only pain to design them.

Generally i think that, DW requires a bit of simplification/standardization on some areas, but that's another discussion.



Bingeling -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 3:51:13 PM)

I don't build an escort except maybe in pre-warp. You can ignore them. Unless you are pirate, you have no influence on freighter builds, though.

As long as large freighters somewhat frequently carry more load than the medium capacity, they make sense. If small freighters are faster on normal engines (including turning), they make sense for short range tasks that has less cargo. Like routine mine trips to pick up products.



Tyrador -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 3:53:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I don't build an escort except maybe in pre-warp. You can ignore them. Unless you are pirate, you have no influence on freighter builds, though.

As long as large freighters somewhat frequently carry more load than the medium capacity, they make sense. If small freighters are faster on normal engines (including turning), they make sense for short range tasks that has less cargo. Like routine mine trips to pick up products.


Yeah sounds excellent, but as far as i have seen Ai doesn't do that. Maybe I didn't look well, i don't know.



Gargoil -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 4:18:08 PM)

No matter how the AI handles them, you are better off with a mixture of sizes because:

1) Small and Medium size freighters are quicker to build (especially important if you have those small space ports at new colonies trying to build a few).
2) Small and Medium cost less maintenance.
3) By having MORE ships, some of smaller sizes, gives more flexibility to the AI choice of assignment. If you argue that the AI is not very smart, then at least you gave it a better chance of working correctly by giving it some flexibility.
4) Large freighters are juice targets. If you only have large, then that is the only type you are going to lose in war or by pirates.



Bebop Cola -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 4:41:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
You could imagine small freighters fetching at mining stations, large freighters balancing loads between transport hubs, and mediums fetching and delivering goods between hub and each colony. But the game is not working quite like that. Or the exceptions are too numerous to notice that it tries to ;-)

This makes sense to me and I would very much like to see the private sector ships optimized along these lines.

I mean, I'm not particularly averse to the idea of a small freighter owner taking an odd job to deliver small shipments to colony clients, but generally speaking(if we imagine a real world situation) it makes a sort of sense that the longer, more dangerous runs between colony worlds(even at the higher warp speeds of later games) would be more efficiently handled by larger ships and bulk transport.

There may be the odd small freighter long-haul delivery, but I would imagine that would only happen with high-value goods(ie. rare resoures in high demand and/or the unique luxury resources). Most of the time small freighters would stay in-system to serve local needs. That may well mean there aren't many small freighters for a given system as there may be few to none drop-offs other than the colony world.

Just my two cents.



Tyrador -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 6:02:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bebop Cola

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
You could imagine small freighters fetching at mining stations, large freighters balancing loads between transport hubs, and mediums fetching and delivering goods between hub and each colony. But the game is not working quite like that. Or the exceptions are too numerous to notice that it tries to ;-)

This makes sense to me and I would very much like to see the private sector ships optimized along these lines.

I mean, I'm not particularly averse to the idea of a small freighter owner taking an odd job to deliver small shipments to colony clients, but generally speaking(if we imagine a real world situation) it makes a sort of sense that the longer, more dangerous runs between colony worlds(even at the higher warp speeds of later games) would be more efficiently handled by larger ships and bulk transport.

There may be the odd small freighter long-haul delivery, but I would imagine that would only happen with high-value goods(ie. rare resoures in high demand and/or the unique luxury resources). Most of the time small freighters would stay in-system to serve local needs. That may well mean there aren't many small freighters for a given system as there may be few to none drop-offs other than the colony world.

Just my two cents.


In this case, it would smart to use different hyperdrives. For example: Small freighter = Kaldos



jamthree -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/30/2013 7:15:03 PM)

One of the main considerations for the overall game, as it is, is how the sizes affect private sector freighter purchases/retrofits as thats where alot of income comes from. I would check that the private sector purchases the same number of freighters if you only leave one type in your design. as opposed to all three before just eliminating them from your game. Also I don't think anyone but the developers know if within the freighter AI there are any conditionals that work based on size, it does not appear that there is but who knows. If there is it might be in the "find mission event". I imagine that after a a freighter is created or drops off it goods and requests from the program a new mission it might compare the amount of goods a base is holding versus the cargo size of the freighter, but who knows.



Constantine XI -> RE: What's the point of having different transports? (5/31/2013 3:03:15 PM)

I would love to see some dymystification here. It certainly would make sense for the AI to optimize itself in this way, but it doesn't sound like it does. Maybe this is something that can be tweaked in the future.

There are so many roles here and variables, such as size of cargo, distance, demand, size of ship, speed of ship, local danger, etc.

Maybe we could someday have a tool to define trade routes / zones? Star Drive has something similar, but it isn't very well developed. It would be neat if we could define routes or zones. For example, you could design a hardy Q-Ship style freighter with good defenses, and order it to operate in contested areas, while the undefended freighters are kept to safer systems.

Would be nice to have some more UI elements to help us 'see' how trade works.



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