HE/AP (Full Version)

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geofflambert -> HE/AP (6/10/2013 6:15:03 PM)

Here's a question I haven't seen asked before. When BBs, CAs and so on leave port are they loaded 50/50 with HE/AP rounds regardless of the TF's mission orders? If not, do you have to do a manual replenishment in port to get the appropriate mix?

Or, am I totally off the track and the game engine assumes you have AP rounds available against surface targets and HE against land targets until you expend all ammunition?

Or worse yet, does the engine average the effects of the two regardless of the target?



Sieppo -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 7:16:42 PM)

OT: I have watched many documents that state that battleships did bombardments that lasted days or so. For example Guadalcanalcalanal. Seems like having 20-30 ammo for the main gun would last for about an hour. Did they have this little ammo IRL? I suppose so but seems like it would not give many hours of bombardment until you would need to go back to a port large enough.. Maybe they had ammo replenisment vessels nearby that would be available at that point..



geofflambert -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 7:25:20 PM)

That's what AEs are for. That wasn't really OT either,



JockJimmy -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 7:37:08 PM)

A lot of the bombardment would be from the secondary batteries and not at an especially high rate of fire. No doubt someone on here can tell us how much ammo they carried AND the barrel life expectancy.

JJ.



Symon -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 8:08:50 PM)

None of the above. Game combat modes are an abstraction. A ship will shoot what it needs to depending on the combat mode selected. How it does this is a function of the code. You get what you get and you don't get no mo' and so don't be askin'

[image]local://upfiles/43462/B431E024CBCD445EA38CE742093A1269.jpg[/image]



geofflambert -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 8:15:10 PM)

That does it. I'm going to have to come up with more imponderables for Symon to answer. Like this one:

How come in all those car ads (that I hope we've seen the last of) all the cars would slide around sideways? Why would you want to buy a car that when you point the wheels forward it instead goes sliding off to the left or right? And in slow motion to boot!



dr.hal -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 8:33:22 PM)

Ok, a realism check here is in order. First main battery ammo was very limited, recall the fight between the Graf Spee and three British cruisers, where the pocket battleship use almost half of its 11 inch ammo in a relatively brief fight and the three cruisers (one CA and two CLs) used even more. Ammo goes fast, so I can safely say that WITP AE does a good job of modeling this. Second capitol ships usually bombard with their primary guns not their secondary weapons, not the other way round.

The game doesn't model the fact that for a Bombardment mission a ship's load out would be very different than for a surface action group mission. This was the case for the Japanese in some of their Guadalcanal dust ups where they were firing HE shells at US ships rather than AP, as they were intending to bombard Henderson and quickly ran out of their AP shells and started grabbing HE (and in at least one case, illumination). HE would be great against thin skinned ships, merchants, DEs, DDs, etc... but that ammo bounces off off CAs and BBs. Yes there is damage, but "systems" damage rather than vital damage. But the game doesn't model this so if you set out for a bombardment mission, the ship automatically switches to AP if it encounters enemy capitol ships. You can't have everything reflected in the game!



geofflambert -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 8:44:35 PM)

I think BBs carried at least some HE typically (though I am often wrong) and that in a surface action on a clear day they might use the HE at ranges beyond 20k or so until they bracketed the target and went into rapid-fire.



dr.hal -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 9:00:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think BBs carried at least some HE typically (though I am often wrong) and that in a surface action on a clear day they might use the HE at ranges beyond 20k or so until they bracketed the target and went into rapid-fire.

No you are right Geof, as a weapons officer on a DDG I can attest to the fact that you always carried a mix of ammo. What changes in relation to the mission is the percent of mix going from one type to the other in response to that mission. You are absolutely correct in that HE would always be part of the mix (and for the 18.1 inch, even AA rounds!) even if a surface action was anticipated. As I said above, you never know when you might be up against a thin skinned ship rather than an armored one. Remember CVs would be considered thin skinned as AP shells might pass directly through them without being triggered (as was the case in Leyty Gulf against Taffy three's CVEs).



geofflambert -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 9:14:29 PM)

As I recall, the Germans had some sort of smart bomb (don't remember how it worked) that in one or two cases penetrated completely through a BB before exploding, in fact I think in one instance went through a turret and completely through the barbette. [X(]



JockJimmy -> RE: HE/AP (6/10/2013 11:52:33 PM)

So having looked it up... The Iowa's carried about 1200 main gun rounds (or about 150 per tube). In addition the gun barrels needed to be replaced after approx 300 rounds.

IMHO for the long bombardments (eg off Iwo Jima) the main gun fire must have been spread out, with perhaps only 150 rounds per day for five days say (allowing for a HE and AP reserve.) This just my guess though, and I am very happy to be corrected by someone who knows for sure.

JJ



geofflambert -> RE: HE/AP (6/11/2013 3:20:48 AM)

I'm just guessing too, but I'd be a little surprised if any of the Iowas were used that way, I wouldn't do it. I'd be reluctant to do that with the Alabama too. West Virginia? Absolutely. And you can stretch that 300 round limit a lot when you're shooting at ground targets.



Dili -> RE: HE/AP (6/11/2013 4:02:52 AM)

quote:

As I recall, the Germans had some sort of smart bomb (don't remember how it worked) that in one or two cases penetrated completely through a BB before exploding, in fact I think in one instance went through a turret and completely through the barbette.


Fritz X. The penetration trough turret was in a cruiser US Savannah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Savannah_(CL-42).
It penetrated all trough BB Warspite, incidentally it was the fact that didn't do that to BB Roma that might have doomed it, like with armored vehicles sometimes being over-matched is better for the target survival than having some resistance.



geofflambert -> RE: HE/AP (6/11/2013 4:10:16 AM)

Ok, now we have something to tease warspite1 with. Goody!



JuanG -> RE: HE/AP (6/11/2013 5:55:59 AM)

The typical ammo loadouts for BB's varied quite a bit by nation. For the USN, the typical load for a big gun ship was all APC. For bombardment and firesupport, some portion of this would be replaced by HC.

The British typically carried a mix of different types, with the precise numbers depending on availability (not all the big guns had common or HE rounds available during the whole war) and intended role.

The Japanese also typically used a mixed loadout, with the majority being APC (Type 91/1) and the remainder mostly Type 3 incendiary shrapnel (the AA round). Regular HE (Type 0) was carried for bombardment, though the Type 3 was also used for that (Guadalcanal).

Not familiar with German practice.

Regarding Iowa and bombardment - the HC rounds were typically less damaging to the barrels than APC. For the Iowa in particular, the HC round at 2690fps is rated at 0.43 compared to the regular APC at 2500fps. When fired with a reduced charge, the HC at 1900fps was rated at 0.03.



Symon -> RE: HE/AP (6/11/2013 5:41:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
How come in all those car ads (that I hope we've seen the last of) all the cars would slide around sideways? Why would you want to buy a car that when you point the wheels forward it instead goes sliding off to the left or right? And in slow motion to boot!

Because the flag doesn't have enough pentacles to keep the evil spirits away. But it could be the driver, though, maybe.
[image]local://upfiles/43462/7B53A5BDEC0D48FD97A312B672C9CD35.jpg[/image]



sandlance -> RE: HE/AP (6/12/2013 1:23:05 AM)

I looked up Iowa Class Ammo load in the navy archives. It is as follows Turret #1 390, Turret #2 460, Turret #3 370 for a total projectile Loadout of 1220. The Ammo Loadout for Arizona was 1588 14" rounds maximum. 1200 Rounds wartime load, 300 per Turret. This last is listed in "Battleship Arizona" by Paul Stillwell pg. 277



castor troy -> RE: HE/AP (6/12/2013 8:31:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's a question I haven't seen asked before. When BBs, CAs and so on leave port are they loaded 50/50 with HE/AP rounds regardless of the TF's mission orders? If not, do you have to do a manual replenishment in port to get the appropriate mix?

Or, am I totally off the track and the game engine assumes you have AP rounds available against surface targets and HE against land targets until you expend all ammunition?

Or worse yet, does the engine average the effects of the two regardless of the target?



there is no such thing as HE or AP in the game



PanzerDaddy -> RE: HE/AP (6/12/2013 10:10:28 AM)

Now that would be really nice to have though. [8|]

What would think when adding to your to-do list: Item 1489 Check HE availibility for 14" guns before bombarding Gudalcanal. WitP is already IMMENSE enough.



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