Supply/reinforcements (Full Version)

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RandomAttack -> Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 4:39:21 AM)

Ok, I'm lost. Barbarossa again, German units in ex-Russian territory (German controlled), seem to be limited to a max of 10% reinforcements no matter what level of supply they have (23, 28, etc.). Can't find any rule that causes this. What am I missing? EX: An INF unit at 68% strength in German-controlled hex, 26 supply. If I click "Max" reinforcements it only goes to 78%... [&:]



baloo7777 -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 5:07:46 AM)

Yes, that's correct...same for all scenario's. See thread below for previous discussion of reinforcements.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3326669



Rasputitsa -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 5:55:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack
Ok, I'm lost. Barbarossa again, German units in ex-Russian territory (German controlled), seem to be limited to a max of 10% reinforcements no matter what level of supply they have (23, 28, etc.). Can't find any rule that causes this. What am I missing? EX: An INF unit at 68% strength in German-controlled hex, 26 supply. If I click "Max" reinforcements it only goes to 78%... [&:]


I think this appeared after comments that it was too easy to reinforce units, it does make things much more difficult. The Eastern Front campaign I am in now is becoming a balancing act in sending some units back and still holding the line, whilst trickling replacements into fighting units.

It forces you to plan well ahead for any major offensives, as you cannot quickly repair damage, so I do like the realism it brings (how many replacements could be absorbed in a week at the front), but would like to know where this feature operates, because it doesn't seem to be in the usual file location where it can be modded.




RandomAttack -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 6:18:16 AM)

Ahhh, so it is WAD. Well, that's something anyway. I did a search and couldn't find anything articulating this-- I too would be interested in knowing where this is as I'm not sure I really like it myself, and guess it overrides the consts files. I've just really started playing again after several months and it seems there are several undocumented "features" like this that are kind of irritating when they pop up all unexpected-like. At least I know I don't have some kind of rogue game going on... [:'(]



Peter123 -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 2:24:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

would like to know where this feature operates, because it doesn't seem to be in the usual file location where it can be modded.




I think this is the constant (confusing label):

[image]local://upfiles/34072/1B792E752BD64DD9A7F4012CD33A8F54.jpg[/image]



Rasputitsa -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 2:54:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack
Ahhh, so it is WAD. Well, that's something anyway. I did a search and couldn't find anything articulating this-- I too would be interested in knowing where this is as I'm not sure I really like it myself, and guess it overrides the consts files. I've just really started playing again after several months and it seems there are several undocumented "features" like this that are kind of irritating when they pop up all unexpected-like. At least I know I don't have some kind of rogue game going on... [:'(]


I'm not sure it's WAD, but it is how the present game is working, not sure how intentional it was. There were some 'the game's broken' comments about being unrealistic and too easy to get replacements, but as the scenario 'consts.ini' file has the data to control replacements in different supply levels, the game was easy to adjust for this feature. It went with toning down the supply effects.

Maybe it's with PBEM in mind, so that there is no work-around, should an opponent want to 'fix' the files, either way I would prefer to have these things as an option for players to choose. However, it does make more of a challenge and I am using a 'Notepad' file, open in the background, to keep track of which units are due to be move to home territory for rebuilding and to remind me to keep the unit replacement, upgrade and transfer program going. It does feel more realistic, Drat ! [:D]



Rasputitsa -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 3:15:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter123
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
would like to know where this feature operates, because it doesn't seem to be in the usual file location where it can be modded.


I think this is the constant (confusing label):

[image]local://upfiles/34072/1B792E752BD64DD9A7F4012CD33A8F54.jpg[/image]


I thought that this data was for supply features, stupidly I was looking for a line with 'replacements' in it.[8|]

Yep, that did it [&o], changing the value from '10' to '20' moved replacement level up to 20%. I suppose that you could still impose a restriction on some nations by adding the necessary lines to the relevant national 'consts.ini' files, to override the main 'consts' file.

I will persevere with the 10% replacement level for now, but it's nice to know it can be changed. [:)]



RandomAttack -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 6:54:27 PM)

Outstanding! At least it can be tweaked-- thanks much.[:)]



gwgardner -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 8:16:06 PM)

Yeah, it's WAD. Not only that, but you can't upgrade from division to corps outside home territory too. Makes the game much better than it was.

I recall one game in which I amphibious assaulted into Turkish territory, near the Caucasus. Sure would have been convenient to go in with a division, then upgrade to corps, but I couldn't do that. Much more realistic in terms of forcing the player to plan ahead.

On the Eastern Front, the only way to really refit one of the German panzer units is to pull it back to German territory (which includes the General Govt.). Reinforcing such a unit at the front takes forever, or the player must make the decision to simply use the unit at reduced strength.

So for instance a complete refit of a German Panzer corps near Stalingrad means: 1 turn to get it to a railroad, one turn to transport back to home territory, one turn to do the refit, one turn to transport back, one turn to position on the front - so four or five weeks/turns - I love that, so much more realistic.



Plainian -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/11/2013 10:25:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Yeah, it's WAD. Not only that, but you can't upgrade from division to corps outside home territory too. Makes the game much better than it was.

I recall one game in which I amphibious assaulted into Turkish territory, near the Caucasus. Sure would have been convenient to go in with a division, then upgrade to corps, but I couldn't do that. Much more realistic in terms of forcing the player to plan ahead.

On the Eastern Front, the only way to really refit one of the German panzer units is to pull it back to German territory (which includes the General Govt.). Reinforcing such a unit at the front takes forever, or the player must make the decision to simply use the unit at reduced strength.

So for instance a complete refit of a German Panzer corps near Stalingrad means: 1 turn to get it to a railroad, one turn to transport back to home territory, one turn to do the refit, one turn to transport back, one turn to position on the front - so four or five weeks/turns - I love that, so much more realistic.


Just out curiosity does that mean Soviet units attacking west have to go back to their 1939 border for full resupply/reinforcements?

What about in 1944 when British and US forces are operating in France? How does this work?



gwgardner -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/12/2013 12:41:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian


Just out curiosity does that mean Soviet units attacking west have to go back to their 1939 border for full resupply/reinforcements?

What about in 1944 when British and US forces are operating in France? How does this work?



Yes, it's the same for all as far as I know.

By the time '44 rolls around, in my experience, it's a cake-walk for the US and British. I've never had to transport units back to the home country for a refit. But if needed, that would be the case. Of course while they're operating in France, the Germans would have the same supply/refit problem.



RandomAttack -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/12/2013 12:42:52 AM)

Hmmm-- the setting above works, but ALSO seems to completely override the other "graduated" supply settings. In other words, if you set it to "30" you will ALWAYS be able to add 30 of replacements in enemy territory-- REGARDLESS of what your supply level is (whether 25, 20, 17, etc). This seems strange to me. The other entries ONLY seem to apply if you are in your own territory... [&:]

Edit: I tried deleting the "enemyterritory" lines, and it seems to default to 10 even if the lines aren't there. So it looks like there are two completely different supply systems regarding reinforcements. One for "friendly" territory that uses the multiple/graduated settings, and the one for "enemy" territory that has one value and one value only (regardless of supply level). Guess it's ok if you stick to a very low value, but this seems like a very clumsy system to me...



RandomAttack -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/14/2013 1:12:30 AM)

After a long absence, and keeping with the above discussion, I am realizing issues with the supply mechanism I never knew. I thought that game used all the the "primary" consts.ini file settings unless specifically overwritten by the country-specific consts.ini, but apparently it doesn't work QUITE that way for the supply entries. For example, supply penalties ONLY apply if those entries exist in the country-specific file to BEGIN with. Sooo, Germany & Italy get the supply hits to effectiveness, but Soviets, Great Britain, and all minors get none whatsoever (unless totally out of supply). As an experiment, I pasted the consts_German supply effects into the consts_USSR file and voila!-- they started getting effectiveness hits too.

If WAD, I guess this is an attempt at balancing, but it's clearly not a level playing field. Personally, I think all underlying mechanics (like supply impacts) should apply equally to at least all the major powers. You could always tinker with unit strengths, turn 1 event penalties, etc., instead of making all these countries basically exempt for the entire scenario. My two cents anyway.



Rasputitsa -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/14/2013 10:46:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack
After a long absence, and keeping with the above discussion, I am realizing issues with the supply mechanism I never knew. I thought that game used all the the "primary" consts.ini file settings unless specifically overwritten by the country-specific consts.ini, but apparently it doesn't work QUITE that way for the supply entries. For example, supply penalties ONLY apply if those entries exist in the country-specific file to BEGIN with. Sooo, Germany & Italy get the supply hits to effectiveness, but Soviets, Great Britain, and all minors get none whatsoever (unless totally out of supply). As an experiment, I pasted the consts_German supply effects into the consts_USSR file and voila!-- they started getting effectiveness hits too.

If WAD, I guess this is an attempt at balancing, but it's clearly not a level playing field. Personally, I think all underlying mechanics (like supply impacts) should apply equally to at least all the major powers. You could always tinker with unit strengths, turn 1 event penalties, etc., instead of making all these countries basically exempt for the entire scenario. My two cents anyway.


My understanding was that the national 'consts.ini' file data overrides whatever is in the main scenario 'consts' file, for that nation. The national 'const' files are saved with each gave save and are placed in the separate game save folder, whilst the main scenario 'consts' file remains in the main game folder. This means that you can tweak the data for each country in a game in progress.

For instance, in an ongoing game, I have introduced into the game save copies of the German and Italian 'consts' files a reduced cost, quick build, lower strength, extended life, Mulberry Harbour (Mulberry-lite). The way the game is configured, there is no supply to small islands without ports that a nation already owns ('alternative supply' from fleets only works for islands that you have captured and taken control). For example, the Italians have no sea supply to their Ionian islands (Rhodes) and UK has no sea supply to Orkney and Shetland, you cannot land units on a beach hex ('disembark' option only works for enemy controlled hexes), you can only move in air, or airborne, units and they will immediately be out of supply.

The adjustments to the national 'consts' file allow the placing of a Mulberry-lite, which represents an existing small island harbour being extended to supply island bases. The Mulberry-lite unit represents the ground defence (you can't get any normal ground unit on these islands) and is set at about a division strength. It gives limited supply to allow the placing of air units on islands you cannot otherwise use.

The main scenario 'consts' full strength Mulberry remains to be used by other nations, for the Allies the UK can have Mulberry-lite, to supply Orkney, Shetland and the Channel Islands, the US is left with the normal Mulberry data for a main invasion Mulberry to be placed later. I have edited additional beach hexes into other small islands, where real world harbours do exist, so there are sites available to place Mulberry-lite small harbour units.

You could also use Mulberry-lite on long extended coasts, such as Norway and North Africa, representing small harbours giving limited supply. You cannot dock fleets to refuel, or repair ships and there are no convoys, no troop landings (except the Mulberry-lite itself), as this simulates small coastal vessels unloading in fishing harbours, with the Mulberry-lite supply level set to only allow a short range local effect.

Juggling the effects in national and main scenario 'consts.ini' files, permits detailed tweaking of game effects and some additional features like the Mulberry-lite (small harbour).

Supply has always been a bit of a mystery in the game, but as supply was crucial to most WW2 operations, including the whole East Front campaign, I quite like the need to 'plan for' and 'work at' supply, as a major part of the game, frustrating and confusing as that can be. [:)]



RandomAttack -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/14/2013 4:27:04 PM)

Rasputitsta,
Thanks for the explanation. It's largely how I "thought " it worked, but I seem to be missing a key piece somewhere. Let me try and illustrate.
I like to play Barbarossa, and I wanted to tweak it a bit-- everything from CRT results to supply. I've had no issues with any changes EXCEPT supply that I know of. Example of a test:

1) Const.ini National files: I copied & pasted the German supply entries into the USSR file.
2) I started the scenario as Germans. The expected supply effectiveness penalties appear for both USSR & Germans when I select units at various levels of supply.
3) I save the game and end turn.
4) At the start of turn 2, there are no supply effectiveness penalties anywhere, for anyone. And it stays that way for future turns.
5) I look at the German & Russian consts.in files in the save game (prior to end turn), and all of the "[UnitsPerformanceInRelationsToSupplyAtXX]" entries are basically gone.

So what am I missing? Can you "only" change the save game files and not the main files (at least for supply)?



Rasputitsa -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/14/2013 8:44:39 PM)

Once a game is under-way and has been saved, the saved game file (Documents/My Games/Time of Fury/Saves) contains the national 'consts.ini' files, along with the other relevant game data, which is where I am making country specific changes as the game develops. I have noticed that the copy of national files, in the saved game, is not replicated exactly from turn to turn, with lines sometimes shuffled, but I hadn't seen the data change.[&:]

AFAIK. if you want to change country specific data after a game has started, then it must be done in the saved game files, but as the saved game does not carry a copy of the main scenario 'consts' file, it must be referring to the file in the main folder, unless overridden by data in the game save national files.

The way the files work is odd, I am changing some of the images used in the unit information box and usually you would expect the changes to be effective only after the amended file has been saved, but in this case, the change is immediate and instantly seen in the game that is running simultaneously, the file is not saved just closes as amended. [&:]



RandomAttack -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/15/2013 6:36:02 AM)

Yes, at the very least how the supply entries are handled are odd indeed. I kept tinkering and finally have a set of files that supply effects that work past the first turn. Not sure why, but it works so I will declare victory and move on. [:)] Thanks again for your insights.



Rasputitsa -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/15/2013 6:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack
Yes, at the very least how the supply entries are handled are odd indeed. I kept tinkering and finally have a set of files that supply effects that work past the first turn. Not sure why, but it works so I will declare victory and move on. [:)] Thanks again for your insights.


The game is only re-grouping, it will come back, to quote Dr. Frankenstein 'it's alive!'. [:D]



RandomAttack -> RE: Supply/reinforcements (6/15/2013 2:50:52 PM)

I meant "move on" in this case as meaning it's "good enough" that I feel I can actually play a fun game now. Time I stopped tinkering and head for Minsk! [;)]



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