Dutch in Darwin (Full Version)

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steamboateng -> Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 2:08:10 AM)

Got back into the game after a long respite.
I have Michael's latest Beta loaded and am setting up #6 Dec 8 game as Allies vs. AI.
First off what can I expect from combat effects in the latest Beta vs. last 'official' update?
The DEI has lots of base units and combat units I'd like to evacuate to Darwin. Is it useful to put Darwin under ABDA Command, in order to get Restricted Dutch base units (large ones at Soerabaja, Batavia, etc.) to rebase there?



wdolson -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 2:23:19 AM)

You can get pretty good air support in Darwin by stripping all the small base forces from the coastal bases in western Australia and assembling them in Darwin. Even if you change Darwin to a command where the Dutch forces can be based, you will have trouble moving the restricted units from where they are to Darwin. The only way would be by air which will be both slow and incomplete. Dutch specific devices will never rebuild in the evacuated units.

You can now rebuild a lot of destroyed units from the information screen. It will take time, but most of the British and American base forces can be rebuilt after they are destroyed.

Bill



Justus2 -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 2:33:51 AM)

There are a couple of large Dutch av support units (1ML-MNIL Aviation and 2ML...) that start in Batavia and Soerbaja, they contain approx 40 Av Spt (up to 100 filled out) and 30 Eng each. They can be bought out for like 70pp (1/4 that amount if you are just buying them out to ABDA) and shipped to Darwin. However, it is all about timing, if you pull them out early, they leave Batavia (or Soerbaja) useless as an air base, if you wait too long, you wont be able to get them out.



Q-Ball -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 3:40:33 AM)

You don't really need to evac the Dutch IMO........the US gets AV support pretty quick, and it's not like you have alot of aircraft initially. With a couple months, the US West Coast starts to really fill-up with base forces, and as someone else posted, you can also start moving around some of the Australian Units

I wouldn't bother.....

PS: As the US, you should be moving everything you can off the West Coast as soon as you can....to various islands, or if you are not sure what to do with a unit, just default to Australia. Worst thing that happens, it's stored for later.



jmalter -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 4:22:40 AM)

In my DBB_B game, I decided there'd be a long-term advantage to evacuating Dutch Recon/Bomber airgroups & Dutch BFs to North Oz. There were also 3 USN BFs in the Philippines (Bataan, Cavite & Cebu) w/ lots of NavSupport that were even higher-priority for saving.

But Darwin is too expensive to change out to ABDA, & doing so will prevent arriving permanently-restricted RAAF units from flying there. Rather, buy out Wyndham, Derby & Port Hedland to ABDA. There's some few Dutch BFs in the DEI that can be bought to ABDA, shipped to those bases & re-assembled into larger BFs, while leaving the main BFs at Bata & Soer to die in place after they run out of fighters. But if you can save the Dutch Recon/Bomber airgroups, they can upgrade to PBY-5 & Mitchell planes, provide a NavSearch DEW-line along the north coast of Oz, while training to support an eventual counter-offensive.

Downside is it takes PPs to save these units, it must be done right away starting 08 Dec 41 at a time when PPs are needed everywhere. It worked out well for my game, although the North Oz bases needed Oz & Yank fighter sqns for protection against Betty raids throughout 1942. Lots of unescorted Bettys got shot down, that's a Good Thing!



crsutton -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 3:07:00 PM)

You only need to save a few Dutch Base forces. Not really a big deal since the Allies can now buy back all base forces lost in the initial onslaught and will have plenty. Better to just buy out the few really good base units rather than worry about the PPs costs of changing a base in OZ. Besides some opponents might object to that tactic. Don't bother trying to save Dutch ground or air units. They are not worth it. Eventually you will get a few Dutch/Australian air units as reinforcements. You can employ your Dutch pilots there.



steamboateng -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 4:02:39 PM)

Thanks guys, its only the bigger base forces I was interested in evacuating. Changing Darwin to ABDA Command is expensive and not necessary as you point out, as I can change the base forces to ABDA to move them.
Been away from the game for about a year and a half; good to see all those familiar monikers still here.



HansBolter -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/14/2013 5:13:06 PM)

Playing against the AI you can easily evac a huge Dutch force to Koepang and turn it into an unassailable fortress (especially if you send a bit of III Indian Corps there from Singapore) without the need to spend PPs to change the command of other Allied bases. Put the Dutch flying boats to use transporting all the restricted Dutch units to Koepang since they can't be shipped.



wdolson -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/15/2013 12:17:35 AM)

I wouldn't bother buying out any Dutch base forces. In the early going the Allies need every PP they can spare to buy out other units and it isn't very long until the American and British base forces start flowing in. There are even several Australian base forces that arrive in the first few months. It's cheaper and more realistic to transfer some of the other Allied base forces to Darwin if you are trying to build it up. The British, Australian, and America base forces also upgrade to better AA and better search capability (radar) than the Dutch units. The Dutch units are always hamstrung by a thin replacement pool that dries up in mid-1942. The other Allies keep upgrading to the end of the war.

Bill



dr.hal -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/15/2013 3:10:01 PM)

Well gentlemen, I have to put forth at least a token of protest (having a Dutch father and all). I feel as if the Dutch forces are not being treated with respect! They are not the Rodney Dangerfields of AE. In every PBEM game I've played (always as the allies) they have been the critical swing "vote" in the game. If you buy them enough time to train and consolidate (using both Dutch and US flying boats) they build the basis of a defense along the Java and as indicated Koepang line. The key is getting them the time and started on turn ONE! I move forces overland and by air. I don't "buy" them out with way too few PPs. Those PPs are needed elsewhere. In May '42 I've a number of Dutch aces and by then most of the old aircraft (unarmored Buffalos) have been replace by at least somewhat acceptable Hurricanes and P40s. Yes later in the game they are somewhat sidelined but what they do in the early months is vital and can make a difference! Dutch naval units are relatively week, but the subs with torpedoes that work are killers. Hal



SuluSea -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/15/2013 5:52:24 PM)

Here's my must get list for the Dutch...

Tarakan Coastal Gun Battalion preferably to Palembang /2nd choice Semarang.
2nd KNIL AA Battalion from Lautern to Darwin.
Either 1 or 2 ML-KNIL Aviation evacuated to Darwin.





Mac Linehan -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/15/2013 8:31:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Here's my must get list for the Dutch...

Tarakan Coastal Gun Battalion preferably to Palembang /2nd choice Semarang.
2nd KNIL AA Battalion from Lautern to Darwin.
Either 1 or 2 ML-KNIL Aviation evacuated to Darwin.



Sulu -

Succinct and to the point - precisely the quick reference that a Jar Head needs (keep it simple!).

Gents - good stuff, I learned a lot; Thank You.

Mac




steamboateng -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/15/2013 10:06:27 PM)

Ok, you've given me the incentive to make the DEI a speed bump in the IJ's parking garage. (Fortress Palembang is off the table-trying to be somewhat historical.) I will also try to save the other two Dutch AA units for Darwin, knowing Tojo will be ringing doorbells in a month or so.
I'm looking at a MLR from Darwin to PM to Milne Bay to Luganville to Numea to Suva and Pago Pago. This is all very much a historical line, so no unconventional showtunes here, at least for a year as I build up LOC and move in US forces to fill the void. Against the AI I should be able to do this?



wdolson -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/16/2013 2:37:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Well gentlemen, I have to put forth at least a token of protest (having a Dutch father and all). I feel as if the Dutch forces are not being treated with respect! They are not the Rodney Dangerfields of AE. In every PBEM game I've played (always as the allies) they have been the critical swing "vote" in the game. If you buy them enough time to train and consolidate (using both Dutch and US flying boats) they build the basis of a defense along the Java and as indicated Koepang line. The key is getting them the time and started on turn ONE! I move forces overland and by air. I don't "buy" them out with way too few PPs. Those PPs are needed elsewhere. In May '42 I've a number of Dutch aces and by then most of the old aircraft (unarmored Buffalos) have been replace by at least somewhat acceptable Hurricanes and P40s. Yes later in the game they are somewhat sidelined but what they do in the early months is vital and can make a difference! Dutch naval units are relatively week, but the subs with torpedoes that work are killers. Hal


Against the AI it is possible to hold Java if you start early. The Dutch AF is a good stop gap force, but they quit getting new airframes in early 42 and the pilot pool is thin. I've been able to hold Java and Palembang against the AI (a human player would probably wipe the floor with me) and it does give a good launch point for the counter attack.

The Dutch LCUs are also somewhat fragile as are the Commonwealth forces. Neither get much in the way of replacement devices, so once a unit has taken losses, it will never be rebuilt.

I don't have anything against the Dutch, it's just that they were in an untenable position in 1941. The home country had been overrun and they both started with a smaller military and got less out than the French did. The Netherlands only major overseas possession was the DEI while the French had a lot of territories. The Free French were able to field a fairly significant force, while the Dutch struggled to keep enough troops in the DEI to maintain the peace with the natives.

The DEI had the worst of both worlds. It had a population that hated their European occupiers, but they had a military budget more like a third world country with a very complex territory to protect. The DEI has a staggeringly huge coast line and a lot of very remote areas.

There is a good book about the Dutch Navy's aviation units at the start of WW II. They touch on other Dutch forces too. The Dutch were stretched to the breaking point at the start of the war.

Bill



steamboateng -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/16/2013 7:30:33 PM)

Bill, thanks for your insights on the DEI.
I have spent hours pondering the possible defensive set up for this area, perhaps more than any other area of the map. It's a mind bender, considering the weak Dutch forces dispersed across such large distances. Early in the War the US was committed to the defense of Australia, leaving little to support a discordant ABDA effort in the area. Later in the War the Commonwealth countries were pushing for a major offensive through the DEI, but as we know, the more practical (and politicaly astute-the US wanted no part of re-establishing European imperialism in either the DEI or Malaya) drive up through the Philippines along side a Nimitz drive through the Pacific won the day. Only in 1945 did the Commonwealth Forces have the assets available to invade the southern islands. The WWll politics of this area is a study in itself.
When I sailed with SeaLand I went to Rotterdam often. Used to bring home those great Edam and Gouda cheeses regularly. I still have a patch of Tulips in the back yard, planted with Dutch bulbs over 20 years ago. And of course, there's little as pleasing to the eye as those KLM stewardesses making the trans-Atlantic flight home!



dr.hal -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/17/2013 6:31:54 PM)

Bill,

I hope you didn't think my input was an attack on your views of the Dutch, as it was not intended to be. I think out experiences in the game have been very different. I've never played the AI in the big game, only humans (at least that what Paul says he is!). In truth I've never lost the DEI to the Japanese (mainly because my games all ended by the first of June '42) but Gene is giving me a go of it. I agree that the Dutch are spread very widely and are thin on the ground with antique planes and WW1 style ships, but if you can collect those forces together one would be surprised at how much is there! And if they are augmented by Singapore troops and some others, you have the makings of an effective force. In the "real" war I doubt the Dutch could pull off such a consolidation, but as this is a game they can if given time present quite a challenge to the Japanese player. Hal



wdolson -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/18/2013 12:11:18 AM)

No problem.

steamboateng: The Dutch lobby among the other Allies was one of the weaker ones. When it came to getting anything they wanted, they were often last in line. The Pacific was essentially a US show and the CBI was mostly British/Commonwealth, but the US began to dominate there too. The DEI fell in between two theaters and a ground campaign there promised to be the Solomons on steroids. Attacking the Japanese when they had many overlapped land bases was tough. In the Solomons there were always 6-10 to contend with, in the DEI it would be a few times that.

The British would have loved to take back Singapore, but the logistics of that were just as bad.

When it came to strategy in that part of the world there was also a very ambitious American general who wanted to keep his promise and return to the Philippines. The USN figured that taking Formosa, the Marianas, and Iwo Jima would effectively shut down traffic from the DEI, but MacArthur had to go back to the Philippines for political reasons.

For long term political points taking back the Philippines did buy the US a lot of love from the Filipinos. I once had a conversation with a Singaporean on another forum (not WW II related at all) and she said that she was taught in school the British abandoned Singapore to their fate. Singapore and Malaya today feel they were abandoned. When I pointed out the logistical problems the British faced just to get as far as Rangoon by VJ Day she saw the war in a whole different light.

I suspect Indonesians feel they were abandoned too.

Bill



dr.hal -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/18/2013 2:31:00 PM)

Some very good points Bill, thanks. I would argue however that much of the DEI didn't know much about the Dutch at the time as most of the place was ungovernable! This was somewhat true of the Philippines as well. The central government's rule simply didn't penetrate into the "hinterland" as much as we might suspect. So the sense of "abandonment" might not be as strong, where Singapore was an identifiable unit/city state of sorts and would have had that feeling of abandonment due to its homogeneous situation (despite so many trying to retain it for the British and who subsequently stayed/died in a POW camp for their troubles!). Recently talking with a good friend who worked in China in the ESL arena; she had the same thing to say about the "outback" of China where the Communist Party was not thought of but the local "warlord" as this chap was often referred to, was very much the central authority. Beijing was nothing more than a distant "thing."



Oldguard1970 -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/19/2013 1:59:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Here's my must get list for the Dutch...

Tarakan Coastal Gun Battalion preferably to Palembang /2nd choice Semarang.
2nd KNIL AA Battalion from Lautern to Darwin.
Either 1 or 2 ML-KNIL Aviation evacuated to Darwin.






Interesting! Now I am worried that my assessment of AA units is flawed. I thought the AA effect was pretty feeble so saving an AA unit wouldn't be important. SuluSea obviously sees things differently.

So... what do you all say about the effectiveness of AA units, please?




HexHead -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/19/2013 2:39:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Here's my must get list for the Dutch...

Tarakan Coastal Gun Battalion preferably to Palembang /2nd choice Semarang.
2nd KNIL AA Battalion from Lautern to Darwin.
Either 1 or 2 ML-KNIL Aviation evacuated to Darwin.






Interesting! Now I am worried that my assessment of AA units is flawed. I thought the AA effect was pretty feeble so saving an AA unit wouldn't be important. SuluSea obviously sees things differently.

So... what do you all say about the effectiveness of AA units, please?




AFAIK, AA in stock is not all it 'should' be. The Beta has supposedly made Allied AA more credible. I do know from some AARs that the players seemed to feel AA couldn't be outright ignored.



SuluSea -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/19/2013 2:49:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Here's my must get list for the Dutch...

Tarakan Coastal Gun Battalion preferably to Palembang /2nd choice Semarang.
2nd KNIL AA Battalion from Lautern to Darwin.
Either 1 or 2 ML-KNIL Aviation evacuated to Darwin.






Interesting! Now I am worried that my assessment of AA units is flawed. I thought the AA effect was pretty feeble so saving an AA unit wouldn't be important. SuluSea obviously sees things differently.

So... what do you all say about the effectiveness of AA units, please?




Hello OldGuard1970, (love the moniker BTW) from my POV this is a quality unit early that I'd rather have than leave behind. To buy it out under ABDA Command it will cost 4 points. That's less than an average sub captain. [;)] To buy out the three units under ABDA it will cost 24 PP's total .



Tarakan Coastal Gun Battalion preferably to Palembang /2nd choice Semarang.
2nd KNIL AA Battalion from Lautern to Darwin.
Either 1 or 2 ML-KNIL Aviation evacuated to Darwin.


. I say it's value for the cost.

I'd agree that AA could be more potent overall but I believe the 2nd KNIL AA Battalion is just too good of an AA unit to be left behind also taking into the cost and relative ease to move it to Darwin or anywhere else in Oz. At Lautern it probably will only provide VP's for the enemy at Darwin it has the potential to get some VPs. Taking a look at the unit...


[image]http://i41.tinypic.com/ifq5ux.jpg[/image]


The 40 MM Bofors has a ceiling of 9 to 10 thousand feet with an effect of 20 , the 80mm AA Gun has a ceiling of 28,000 feet and an effect of 28. If you look at effectiveness of AA guns both are medium to high effect weapons. Considering (most of the time) the Japanese fly more fragile crates than the Allies and seem to have less air support around the map even if my units just damage an aircraft it's a potential loss on the way back to it's airfield or something that won't fly tomorrow.



steamboateng -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/19/2013 12:37:58 PM)

I'm testing AA units in game (Beta) with good leadership now. It will be several game weeks before results can be judged. The Beta game seems to be moving at a more measured pace than vanilla, but it may only be the AI script and luck of the draw!



Oldguard1970 -> RE: Dutch in Darwin (6/20/2013 3:04:50 PM)

Nice responses! Hexhead, your thoughts match what I had heard. Stamboating, good luck with the testing. SuluSea, thanks for the "value" explanation.



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