Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -DV welcome

Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -DV welcome (Full Version)

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sillyflower -> Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -DV welcome (6/17/2013 11:53:40 PM)
This will be a fairly straight AAR as all my best trash talk and pictures are on Hitman's AAR, and there's no point trash talking someone who isn't allowed to read this HRs: no bombing on HQs not on a combat unit, no paradrops to break pockets and victory determined by date of fall of Berlin compared to historical date as this gives Germans something to play for in later game. Traditional 1st turn by DV, though he used a lot of bombers to drop fuel rather than to bomb airfields so red Airforce lost only 405 a/c on the ground and most of the almost 1200 losses seem to be self inflicted in training missions or something. Sean and I are doing our usual split. I take north of the mid map dotted line (no move line for minor allies) and overall command whilst he takes south + airforce. The 1 disadvantage of split command is that I send fewer of his units north than I would playing solo. We do remain flexible though and thereby don't have boundary issues. Translation: I nick his stuff. Plays to our strengths as I like nickel and dime defence more than he does, but he's more swashbuckling and attacky than I am under that polite Canadian exterior. Aims - don't lose Moscow or Rostov and have 6M+ strong army with good morale for the blizzard. I'm not bothered about L'grad. After all, we like a long game and only Smokin Dave has lasted beyond Oct 42 when I've played as Russians. I don't count Michael T for this purpose as it was me who did not last.......... and I want another go with model 2.0. I can't see german who doesn't take any of L,M or R in '41 lasting that long against a good Russian. I know Terje did but his opponent did not play well in '42. To achieve these aims means losing a minimum of divisions in pockets.

smokindave34 -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/18/2013 11:12:05 AM)
Will Sean be making an appearance in this AAR? We finall get to look behind the curtain and see how the Pro's manage the Red army. Good luck!

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/18/2013 10:17:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: smokindave34 Will Sean be making an appearance in this AAR? We finall get to look behind the curtain and see how the Pro's manage the Red army. Good luck! If you all keep very still and don't frighten him with trash talk, he may come out. After all, he has well over 1000 posts to his name

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/18/2013 10:43:35 PM)
Back to T1 This needs to be a busier turn than may appear. All the 203mm howitzer and 280mm siege mortar units need to go down to 50% TOE to stop the AI wasting large amounts of arms point in later turns and most of the airforce needs to be put in reserve. I disband the 203mm units over time when I have spare AP as they form the backbone of breakthrough arty xx if the game gets that far. Some can be left depending on damage done by LW on T!, but most benefit from being rested and sorted out with long range bombers put on VVS airbases to try to get those partisans active ASAP. Sean usually puts all the reasonable units back in action ASAP ie in T2 and T3. I also disband every motorcycle regt I can whenever I can as they are useless arms point hogs. I hunt them down relentlessly in the HQ screen. I also disband fortified zones to avoid them surrendering to the enemy. They are full of decent troop types which will cost a lot to replace and turn into Hiwis because the wretched things always surrender. HQs also need to have support levels adjusted to centralise the SUs for later redistribution to the armies that need them. The only SUs I buy in 41 are sappers and RR brigades, and rarely the odd RVGK arty unit if there are guns in stock. A good blizzard offensive needs 60+ RR brigades and a girl can never have too many shoes, handbags or sappers. Sean and I have almost 600 in late 44 vs Smokin Dave.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/18/2013 11:13:24 PM)
The economy Arms points come first. Unless the German gets their skates on it is easy to keep 330+ which is more than enough so you never run out. Remember factory groups get a 1.3 multiplier in '42 so a group of 4 become worth 5 (4x1.3 rounded down) but 3 remains 3 (3.9 rounded down) so only evacuate the 3s if you have spare rail. I tend to try to rail a/c and tank factories I need to early. I usually rail 1 point only unless I have spare. Even then by june '42 you will have more tanks than you know what to do with. If I have spare will rail out full Li2 (never the bomber version) and IL2s if I can get them out early before they grow too big and expensive. Not being able to stop useless U2 production is annoying so what is ( I think) my only really gamey trick is to rail 1 point of all the U2 bombers and half of the others to where German has to capture them next turn. I also move 1 point the Zis 3 factory as soon as it's about to go into production. I can't see any point in paying 1 AP for a battery of 4 that never upgrades. Somme may rightly think this is pointless, but I don't like wasting resources on building cr#p. I always try to rail out every truck factory as trucks are the only perennial equipment shortage. I know some Russians have run out of supplies when the have large armies but too few HI. I do therefore try to save some if there is spare rail going. No idea if that has ever saved the day but have never had supply problems other than those caused by truck shortages. Sean and I have worked out how to solve/mitigate the truck problem. Some of that we have to keep to ourselves but others have written good posts on this subject..

821Bobo -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/19/2013 3:30:28 PM)
I usually en mass the armaments points. Does the multiplier count fragmented arms production as one factory or not? eg. is there difference between having 20 arms in one factory and having it like 3+3+4+10?

Walloc -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/19/2013 7:16:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 821Bobo I usually en mass the armaments points. Does the multiplier count fragmented arms production as one factory or not? eg. is there difference between having 20 arms in one factory and having it like 3+3+4+10? Yes. The multiplier is for each individual factory and it is ROUNDED DOWN. 201.3 = 26 (31.3=3.9=3)+ (31.3=3.9=3)+ (41.3=5.2=5)+(10*1.3=13)= 24 (note lets say u only had evac'ed 9 instead of 10 as the last factory, then u had lost another 2 points for a total of 22 vs 26.) Note the difference between evacing a 3 and 4 HI factory. 3 vs 5 as final production or 60% more when the 1.3 multiplier applies, while the transport cost is only 1/3 higher. Kind regards, Rasmus

821Bobo -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/19/2013 7:24:31 PM)
great, then I was doing it wrong two and half year anyway thanks

Walloc -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/19/2013 7:33:58 PM)
If its any comforts im pretty sure u not the only one. IMHO its not one of the strong points of WiTE. System as it is sets ppl up to "fail". Why IMO needlessly complicate stuff like that by having the modifier not be global, but instead individual. Caters only to nutjobs(read me) that has the time and energy to set down and do the math and doesnt help the learning curve any bit and for what reason? Vent over, Rasmus

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/20/2013 11:01:50 PM)
To separate the numerate goats/geeks like us from the thoughtless sheep.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/20/2013 11:04:34 PM)
Now for the maps which I do not know how to shrink or tie together [image]local://upfiles/35790/763418EAD9C349338150A189203EEA73.jpg[/image] The NKVD div top left was able to sneak back and recapture Ventspils as the SS had done their usual bonehead charge and left it open. Sadly there were no port facilities left so I wasn't sure if the units would be in suplly enough to keep the ZOC corridor open. I therefore tried to ensure they were spaced 3 hexes apart to try to keep hexes remaining in Soviet control where possible. From watching the 'end turn' hex conversion they seemed to which will slow his inf nicely. Otherwise a solid start by DV supporting AGN with another PzK .

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/20/2013 11:13:50 PM)
The middle Solid pockets but fell slightly short of Minsk leaving me more units to play with than I had expected. [image]local://upfiles/35790/B06AF9FDA3D84EBAAA8D4CC2CF86C6B7.jpg[/image] Surprisingly DV did not try to take Brest Litovsk. I'm not sure if that's a good idea as it meant he couldn't use the clearest terrain following the railroad which probably contributed to the slightly shorter advance to Minsk.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/20/2013 11:20:01 PM)
standard solid South but some careless HQ placements. We have no bombing of HQs on their own but Sean is quite aggressive in game so don't be taken in by his forum manner. He just loves displacing HQ and RR units [image]local://upfiles/35790/511D7368B34843AD9BA38CA56754582A.jpg[/image]

Michael T -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/20/2013 11:29:55 PM)
I fear DV is cooked already. Too many Soviets have escaped. Against the Pro's one needs a very good start.

Peltonx -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/21/2013 1:21:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael T I fear DV is cooked already. Too many Soviets have escaped. Against the Pro's one needs a very good start. Yes I agree not good at all.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/21/2013 10:50:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pelton quote: ORIGINAL: Michael T I fear DV is cooked already. Too many Soviets have escaped. Against the Pro's one needs a very good start. Yes I agree not good at all. MT and Pelton agreeing???????????? I must go and have a lie down to recover. We have just returned T2 to him but I won't post the pictures until we get his T3. T2 was not great for him. He posted in his earlier AAR that he was an 'opportunistic attacker'. That is not the best approach for a German in '41. It could be seen as an homage to history as it was Hitler's own approach but we know how that ended up.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/23/2013 9:28:44 AM)
T2 reveal [image]local://upfiles/35790/43C5D4F6912F4943AE7F5B3605B4BE4E.jpg[/image] Hard to see with all DV's recon but he has 1 pz and 1 mot across Dvna near bottom of map. The Russians behind them are in supply ( another broken pocket and the Germans are a long way from theirs so I can't see them going anwhre next turn. Still quite a lot of Russian territory between his panzers and inf si north in good shape

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/23/2013 9:40:49 AM)
The gallant defenders of Minsk not only survive but help to isolate a pz div. No real sign of a big thrust by AGC with the panzers somewhat sacatterd middle [image]local://upfiles/35790/0583D20508134FF09C2A407136FEAF4A.jpg[/image] A clearer picture of the AGN?AGC boundary without the attacks on. I don't know why so many of my opponents like to hurl their mobile troops into the worst terrain they can find. Probably because it looks the least well defended.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/23/2013 9:49:01 AM)
south [image]local://upfiles/35790/1B947C59FEA6495BB4DF5D6E4A35999A.jpg[/image] Belphegor excels himself cutting off 24 pz corps and wreaking havoc with DV's main supply line just to north of Lvov pocket.. This will set his rail line back at least 1 turn. Soviets stay put in the northern section and advance Eastwards in the south to entice his panzers away from their supplies. Not expecting PzG 1 to swing north to help their co-workers out as it's quite a way. Happy if they do.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/23/2013 10:12:49 AM)
All in all, not a great start by DV. He's made some expensive unforced errors particularly in the south, which will slow him and will make it easier for me to nick some of Sean's units. Playing as a team makes me leave more in the south than I would otherwise, but that disadvantage is outweighed with the advantages of team play.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/26/2013 3:33:43 PM)
Silly me. I forgot to take pics of T3. However DV was pretty conservative and I assume he's posted maps on his AAR. No attacks were possible as he's paid more attention to the detail. He persists with the panzer assault in the marshes and rivers NW of Vitebsk and We stayed put, freeing the pocket of 1 tk and 1 mot div and ensuring that his armour continued to have low supplies.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/26/2013 3:37:04 PM)
Breaking pockets 101 to make up for the lack of excitement or even anything of interest in the last post, I thought I would explain the way that we look at this problem. So at the start of T4 DV had formed 2 pockets as below [image]local://upfiles/35790/925619FC12384279AD4404985D0992FF.jpg[/image]

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/26/2013 4:21:47 PM)
So what to do? Breaking pockets is a good thing especially when that means bashing high value targets ie German panzers, motorised and cav. Bashing those targets is always good of course. More importantly, it keeps the surrounded units in play for another turn with the benefits of further disruption to the advance of the bad guys. Success also has a greater psychological impact on the German who will probably be upset by the loss of panzers or other troops that use up lots of arms points, and will probably be more cautious than before. A cautious German is a good one for the Russians. See eg the recent discussions about Hitman's lack of offensive in the Nov '41 snow turns in his AAR. A good German is both very aggressive and very careful. MT's success as the top German player is not just down to the fact that he gets more petrol cans to his panzers than anyone else. However there are downsides. Any attempt to break a pocket does mean disrupting the defences in that area in the Germans' next turn. The biggest downside is, of course, failing to break the pocket which is the worst of all worlds for the Russian. In short, success can bring great reward and failure can just make it much easier for the Nazis to gobble up the would-be rescuers in their next turn. Something that inexperienced Russians may miss in their desire to give some payback is that even breaking the pocket may turn out to have been a mistake as the Germans just form a bigger and better pocket next turn. I will reveal in a day or 2 what actions I take over these 2 pockets and why, but we will all have to see DV's T5 to know whether I took the right ones. You are welcome to post what you will do on the assumption that you can get a 1:1 in straight CV terms against a pz div holding each pocket. I am genuinely interested in your answers.

HITMAN202 -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/26/2013 5:53:37 PM)
No trash- talk here. Sillyflower is 100% correct about how his aggressiveness (and Sean's) made me paranoid and got me into a coccon to where I did not get aggressive moves 5-10. By then he put up a Maginot Line and I could do little (but I could have done more than I did.) I had tremendous success in 5 earlier games ( 2 server) with a direct smash-mouth attack on the AG's 3 targets, Leningrag, Moscow, and the Dnepr. I now see how amatuerish it was and a little embarassing. His strategy has been great, but also his tactics. The problem with that is tactical skills are hard to teach or mimic. MT and Pelton have it and more. THEPROS are very, very good. I will follow this AAR closely.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/26/2013 6:20:59 PM)
Thank you Hitman. All you have to do now is to answer the question posed, though not to the detriment of finishing your own turn. I should add that your performance in our game so far is as good or better than any of our other opponents to date, or any German I have faced other than MT. We had 1 who did quite a bit better in the summer then lost over 30 german divisions in the first 5 blizzard turns before surrendering, but I'm not that hopeful in our game.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (6/26/2013 6:36:16 PM)
PS @ Hitman You do know I will have to keep this AAR behind our game. I can't give you all our secrets before it's too late to help you because you will adjust your play to counter us.........

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (7/4/2013 10:31:41 PM)
Due to forgetting to take any T4 pic, here's end T5 [image]local://upfiles/35790/827CA3E6CBCC46F3BB24318C5517EC53.jpg[/image] I broke both pockets quite easily and 99 german AFVs went into the dead pile. So, was it worth it? In the north the 2 trapped divisions survived as did the rescuers. CV did a good job exploiting the weak spot by Pskov so he had a good turn there. I underestimated his mobility. With hindsight the best response to the pocket would have been to run back to the Luga, but that's not without disadvantages. If I was playing solo I would have sent more from the south to help the North which would make a stand at Pskov much safer.. Ran this turn and hope Luga will hold. In the middle DV resealed the pocket and added 2 more divs to it. I'm not sure if he routed any away. His panzers were again in poor supply and did not get very far. PzG 3 stayed in the bad terrain but PzG 2 extricated itself and started to move east down the funnel between the Dnepr and Dvina rivers. It's an obvious place to go. I'm hoping his panzers will outrun his inf there as armour is very vulnerable to counter attack and I have a lot of good infantry at the east end and in the Smolensk area. In my view breaking this pocket was worth it as it tied much of AGC down for another turn.

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (7/4/2013 10:33:12 PM)
and south [image]local://upfiles/35790/5653868FE94347D1A1E02DE9E338E849.jpg[/image] The 2 div pocket at the top of this screen is my real shame.2 divs lost through stupidity rather than poor judgement. Sean also broke his pocket.as there was a weak spot on the south side defended by a motorised regt. However, packing the east side to stop DV crossing the Dnepr did not work as planned. Fortunately, the lone motorised div that crossed was repelled with heavy losses. Perhaps honours even on the pocket break and german riposte.

smokindave34 -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (7/5/2013 1:01:56 AM)
I think it was a good move breaking the pockets. You didn't put yourself in a situation where your relief force will end up in a pocket next turn and it will force DV to commit more forces when he pockets units in the future (i.e. he will be more conservative). How is it that Sean is a Matrix "Legion of Merit" with thousands of posts to his credit yet he never posts in this AAR and seldom on the WITE forum? What is his secret?

sillyflower -> RE: Totally Disgruntling the Vet. The Pro's v DV -NO DV (7/5/2013 8:36:55 AM)
Indeed, and the last thing we need is a Gruntled Vet. This is not to take away the credit to DV for forming the pockets in the first place. He's been doing better since the first 2 turns. Soviets cannot simply be passive punch bags in '41 if they are to survive against a good German. Equally being too aggressive or fighting too far forward is the quick way to ruin. It is commonplace that the combat system over-favours the attacker. My hope and expectation is that this is 1 of the big issues that WiTE 2 will resolve as mass runaways (by either side) is neither historical nor fun. Sean has not told me why he is silent. (I know - cheesy joke). He's quite chatty by nature as you know.

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