Stacking (Full Version)

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hooooper_slith -> Stacking (6/26/2013 4:17:21 PM)

One aspect of this game that has puzzled me for years, but not enough to do anything about it, is how the order of stacking is decided. This is important in lots of contexts - for deception, for not forgetting where your artillery counters are, for keeping track of HQs and, most importantly, for deciding which HQ a newly built corp will be assigned to. Presumable the computer must run some kind of test to decide. But it would make many things easier if the player could choose the order.

I hope that I'm not the only person who doesn't know about this. [&:]



Vorsteher -> RE: Stacking (6/26/2013 5:11:36 PM)

Each unit has a number. The highest number is first unit in a stack.



hooooper_slith -> RE: Stacking (6/26/2013 5:28:32 PM)

I'd never noticed that before. So it's entirely arbitrary.



Balou -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 4:46:11 PM)

BTW: any news about the incredible "soviet stacking power" ? You can pack a max of 3 soviet corps, but only 3 german divisions in a single hex. Do Sovs need less space per man per square feet ?



Aurelian -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 6:56:43 PM)

Russian Corps were about the size of a German division.



SigUp -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 7:35:34 PM)

Not according to the WITE TOE. The 44 Soviet Rifle Corps TOE has 31.000 men, which is double the size of a German division. Anyway, even historically it is somewhat misleading to say that a Soviet Rifle Division was much smaller than a German one. German infantry divisions had a much bigger supporting staff than a Soviet division. For example, a pre-summer 1943 German infantry division had 8.030 infantry men with 100% TOE. A "new type" German infantry division in the summer of 1943 had only 6.502 infantry men. A Soviet rifle division on the other hand possessed about 7.192. The reason the total number of men was so much higher for a German infantry division lay mainly in the artillery and support staff. An old-type German infantry division had 2.240 men artillery and 4.776 in the support staff (meaning logistics). A new type German infantry division was reduced in that department, but still possessed 1.526 men artillery and 4.392 men support. A Soviet rifle division on the other hand had 669 men artillery and 1.068 men support. Furthermore, for attacks Soviet divisions often got elements attached, they lacked in their TOE. So in effect, many times a Soviet rifle division was not smaller than a German infantry division at all.



Aurelian -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 9:10:59 PM)

By the spring of 1944 the average strength had dropped to under 5,000 for 460+ divisions.

And we're talking corps vs divisions.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=112693&start=15



SigUp -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 9:16:40 PM)

I know that we are talking about corps. For Tank Corps your assertion is certainly right, but Rifle Corps are twice the size of a German infantry division in WITE.

As for the average strength of divisions in 1944. By Summer 1944 German infantry divisions also were massively understrength all across the board.



morvael -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 9:26:19 PM)

I don't see a big problem here, Germans were outnumbered and they always lacked forces to cover the front and maintain some reserves in 43+, so while technically it should possible to pack more than 3 divs per hex, it's something the Germans would rather not use, so there is little to be gained from such change. On the other hand Soviets were often using massive numbers on a wery narrow front to achieve the breakthrough during late war.



Aurelian -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 9:33:54 PM)

Doesn't really matter with the size of the hexes.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=95

66th Rifle Corps (GOC Major General Kuprijanow) consisting of two groupings (61st Guards RD, 333rd RD up, 244th RD reserve). Attached are 46th Gun Artillery Brigade, 152nd Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 184th and 1245th Tank Destroyer Regiment, 10th Mortar Regiment, 26th Light Artillery Brigade, 87th Recoilless Mortar Regiment, 92nd and 52nd Tank Regiment, 398th Assault Gun Regiment, two Pioneer Assault Battalions, and two Light Flamethrower Companies.

Corps frontage 4km (2.4 miles)
Corps breakthrough frontage 3.5km (61st RD 1.5km, 333rd RD 2km)

Densities per kilometer of frontage:
Rifle battalions 7.7
Guns/mortars 248
Tanks and assault guns 18


Density in 61st GRD sector per kilometer of frontage:
Rifle battalions 6.0
Guns/mortars 234
Tanks and assault guns 18

Density in 333rd RD sector per kilometer of frontage:
Rifle battalions 4.5
Guns/mortars 231
Tanks and assault guns 18




carlkay58 -> RE: Stacking (6/28/2013 10:56:32 PM)

Let's be realistic here and admit that '3 units' is a simple and easy solution for the computer to handle - both in code and AI.



Aurelian -> RE: Stacking (6/29/2013 2:06:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Let's be realistic here and admit that '3 units' is a simple and easy solution for the computer to handle - both in code and AI.



Yes it is. But it doesn't change the fact that 3 Russian Corps can be in the same hex. (How many square miles in a hex anyway?)



carlkay58 -> RE: Stacking (6/29/2013 3:02:55 AM)

More than enough to hold about an army worth of men and equipment for any nation in WWII!



Aurelian -> RE: Stacking (6/29/2013 3:36:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

More than enough to hold about an army worth of men and equipment for any nation in WWII!



I read that somewhere!!! Just can't remember where.



Balou -> RE: Stacking (6/29/2013 8:51:33 AM)

This stacking issue always puzzles me when it comes to Stalingrad, although WitE obviously wasn't designed to relive street fighting (enemy units in the same hex). Far from being an OOB expert, but would it be possible to recreate the axis OOB with the current stacking rules before November 19 ? And yes I know that under the current supply rules no isolated unit would survive for as long as the axis did.



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