ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (Full Version)

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obvert -> ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 11:05:49 AM)
For a long while I've been hearing that the Allied production numbers are just a portion of what the Allies get each month and that the incoming groups have a lot of extra planes that change the scope of the Allied OOB considerably. I finally had some time to explore this further. I counted up the incoming group numbers, then calculated the production number for all nations throughout the war, including the Soviet numbers only for 45. For incoming US Navy groups I counted only the CVE replenishment groups, not the normal operating CV groups as the Japanese side also gets filled out groups for the CVs. This is really an assessment of how to think about the numbers to be able to compare the sides capabilities throughout the campaign. Someone may have done this before, and I might have done a lot of work for nothing, but it was interesting and I learned a bunch. Here it is. -

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 11:08:10 AM)
DECEMBER 41 - DECEMBER 42 FIGHTERS - Incoming groups DECEMBER 41 25 P-40E 18 Hurri IIb 17 F4F-3 ------- 60 JANUARY 42 25 P-40E 25" 25 " 25 " 5 " 16 Hurri IIb 16 " 16 " 16 Hurri IIa 16 " 12 B-339D 25 P-400 25 P-39D 25 " 25 " 5 " 25 " 25 " 25 " 5 " ---------------------- 383 FEBRUARY 42 12 Beinheim IF ---------------------- 12 MARCH 42 16 Hurri I 16 " 18 F2-A2 18 F4F-4 18 F2A-3 18 " 16 Hurri IIb 16 Kittyhawk IA 16 " 16 " ----------------------- 168 APRIL 42 12 F4F-3P 5 P-40B 16 Kittyhawk I ---------------------- 33 MAY 42 18 F2A-3 18 " 16 Hurri IIc 16 Hurri IIc 25 P-40E 25 " 25 " 5 " ------------------- 148 JUNE 42 12 Kittyhawk IA 12 " 16 Hurri XIIb 16 " 16 Hurri IIc 16 Kittyhawk I ------------------------- 88 JULY 42 18 F4F-4 18 " 16 Mohawk 25 P-39D 25 " 25 " 25 P-38E 25 " 25 " ------------------------------ 202 AUGUST 42 6 P-39D 16 Spitfire Vc 16 " 16 " 28 F4F-4 6 B-339-23 25 P-39D 6 " --------------------- 150 SEPTEMBER 42 25 P-38E 12 P-66 12 " ----------------------- 49 OCTOBER 42 18 F4F-4 28 " 28 " 28 " 25 P-39D 25 P-40E 12 Kittyhawk IA ------------------------- 164 NOVEMBER 42 25 P-38F ------------------------- 25 DECEMBER 42 0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1744/13 = 134.2/month DEC 41 - DEC 42 PRODUCTION - DEC 41 through DEC 42 FIGHTERS USAAF P-39D 25/month x 13 months = 325 P-40E 35/month x 10 months = 350 P-400 36/month x 2 month = 72 P-38E 24/month x 1 month = 24 P-38F 40/month x 2 months = 80 p-43A-1 12/month x 1 month = 12 P-40K 65/month x 3 months = 195 P-38G 20/month x 3 months = 60 ----------------------------------------------------- 1118 USN/USMC F2A-3 28/month x 1 month = 28 F4F-3A 4/month x 3 months = 12 F4F-4 45/month x 10 months = 450 F4F-3P 8/month x 9 months = 72 ----------------------------------------------------- 562 RAAF B-339-23 7/month x 2 months = 14 Kittyhawk IA 15/month x 9 months = 135 Spitfire Vc 18/month x 3 months = 54 ------------------------------------------------------ 203 RNZAF Kittyhawk IA 8/month x 6 months = 42 ------------------------------------------------------- 42 RAF Sea Hurri Ib 5/month x 11 months = 55 Hurri Ib 16/month x 8 months = 128 Martlet II 9/month x 6 months = 54 Mohawk IV 10/month x 4 months = 40 Buffalo I 12/month x 1 month = 12 Hurri IIc 36 x 7 months = 252 --------------------------------------------------------- 541 DUTCH Hurri IIb 12/month x 1 month = 12 P-40E 27/month x 1 month = 27 -------------------------------------------------------- 39 CANADA Kittyhawk I 8/month x 10 months = 80 Hurri XIIb 24/month x 3 months = 72 Kittyhawk III 12/month x 2 months = 24 --------------------------------------------------------- 176 CHINESE P-43A-1 12/month x 5 months = 60 P-66 Vanguard 13/month x 6 months = 78 P-40E 9/month x 1 month = 9 --------------------------------------------------------- 147 TOTALS - Dec 41- Dec 42 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2505 + 1744 ------------------------------------------------ 4279 (329.2/month) -

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 11:11:24 AM)
JANUARY 43 - DECEMBER 43 FIGHTERS - Incoming Groups JANUARY 43 18 F4F-3 18 " 18 " 18 F4F-4 --------------------------------- 72 FEBRUARY 43 25 P-38G ---------------------------- 25 MARCH 43 25 P-39D 16 Kittyhawk III ---------------------------- 41 APRIL 43 16 A-36 16 " 16 " 16 " 28 F4F-4 16 Spitfire Vc -------------------------------- 108 MAY 43 25 P-47D2 25 " 25 " 25 P-38G 25 " 25 " --------------------------------- 150 JUNE 43 25 P-40N-1 25 " 25 " 28 F4F-4 12 Kittyhawk III 16 " ------------------------------------------- 131 JULY 43 24 FM-1 24 " 24 F4U-1 24 " 25 P-38H 16 Kittyhawk III ------------------------------------------- 137 AUGUST 43 36 F6F-3 36 " 36 " 24 F4U-1 ---------------------------------------- 132 SEPTEMBER 43 25 P-38H 25 A-36 25 " 25 P-51A 16 Kittyhawk IV 36 F4U-1 -------------------------------------------- 152 OCTOBER 43 24 F4U-1 25 P-47D-2 25 " 25 " 25 P-51A ------------------------------------- 124 NOVEMBER 43 16 Spit VIII 16 " 16 Hurri IIc 16 " 24 F4U-1 --------------------------------------- 98 DECEMBER 43 12 Kittyhawk III 16 P-40N-26 18 Corsair II -------------------------------- 46 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1216/12 = 101.3/month JAN 43 - DEC 43 PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43 FIGHTERS USAAF P-39D 25/month x 6 months = 150 P-40K 65/month x 7 months = 455 P-38G 20/month x 5 months = 100 P-38H 40/month x 6 months = 240 P-39N1 35/month x 7 months = 245 P-40N1 70/month x 1 month = 70 P-40N5 55/month x 6 months = 330 P-47D2 56/month x 6 months = 336 P-51A 9/month x 4 months = 36 A-36 6/month x 3 months = 18 P-38J 50/month x 1 month = 50 P-40N26 6/month x 1 month = 6 ----------------------------------------------------- 2036 USN/USMC F4F-4 45/month x 4 months = 180 F4F-3P 8/month x 9 months = 72 F4U-1 30/month x 9 months = 270 F6F-3 130/month x 9 months = 1170 FM-1 30/month x 8 months = 240 F4U-1A 78/month x 3 months = 234 ----------------------------------------------------- 2166 RAAF Kittyhawk III 35/month x 6 months = 210 Spitfire Vc 18/month x 10 months = 180 Kittyhawk IV 30/month x 6 months = 180 Spitfire VIII 20/month x 3 months = 60 ------------------------------------------------------ 630 RNZAF Kittyhawk III 11/month x 5 months = 55 Kittyhawk IV 12/month x 7 months = 84 ------------------------------------------------------- 139 RAF Martlet IV 6/month x 9 months = 54 Spitfire Vc 12/month x 4 month = 44 Hurri IIc 36/month x 12 months = 432 Seafire IIc 6/month x 3 months = 18 Wildcat V 9/month x 3 months = 27 Spitfire VIII 32/month x 2 months = 64 Corsair II 16/month x 1 month =16 --------------------------------------------------------- 655 CANADA Kittyhawk IV 15/month x 3 months = 45 --------------------------------------------------------- 45 CHINESE P-40E 9/month x 5 month = 54 P-40N 8/month x 5 month = 40 --------------------------------------------------------- 94 TOTALS - Jan 43- Dec 43 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5765 +1216 ----------------------------------------- 6981 (581.8/month) JAN 43 - DEC 43 -

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 11:14:40 AM)
JANUARY 44 - DECEMBER 44 FIGHTERS - Incoming groups JANUARY 44 24 F4U-1 24 " 24 " ----------------------------------- 72 FEBRUARY 44 16 P-40N26 25 P-40N5 25 " 25 " 25 " 18 F4U-1A 18 " 16 Hurri IIc 25 P-40N5 25 " -------------------------------------- 218 MARCH 44 0 APRIL 44 36 Seafire --------------------------------------- 36 MAY 44 15 F4U-1D 27 F6F-3 ---------------------------------------- 42 JUNE 44 15 F4U-1D 24 F4U-1 -------------------------------------------- 39 JULY 44 18 Corsair II 25 P-47D25 24 F4U-1A 27 F6F-3 -------------------------------------- 94 AUGUST 44 15 F4U-1D ----------------------------------------- 15 SEPTEMBER 44 18 F4U-1A 18 " 18 F4U-1D 15 F4U-1D 25 P-47D25 ----------------------------------------- 95 OCTOBER 44 25 P-51D 25 " -------------------------------------- 50 NOVEMBER 44 0 DECEMBER 44 25 P-51D 25 " 18 F4U-1A 18 F6F-5 25 P-47D25 25 " 25 " 33 F6F-5 38 F6F-3 -------------------------------------------- 232 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 893/12 = 74.4/month JAN 44 to DEC 44 PRODUCTION - JAN 44 through DEC 44 FIGHTERS USAAF P-40N5 55/month x 6 months = 330 P-47D2 56/month x 2 months = 110 P-51A 9/month x 1 months = 9 A-36 6/month x 1 month = 6 P-38J 80/month x 5 month = 400 P-40N26 6/month x 10 month = 60 P-47D25 175/month x 4 months = 700 P-51B 30/month x 8 months = 240 F-6C 8/month x 5 months = 40 P-38L 30/month x 7 months = 210 F-6D 25/month x 2 months = 50 P-51D 150/month x 2 months = 300 ----------------------------------------------------- 2455 USN/USMC F6F-3 130/month x 6 months = 580 FM-1 30/month x 1 months = 30 F4U-1A 78/month x 12 months = 936 FM-2 128/month x 11 months = 1418 F6F-5 180/month x 6 months = 2160 F4U-1D 158 x 4 months = 632 ----------------------------------------------------- 5756 RAAF Kittyhawk IV 30/month x 12 months = 360 Spitfire VIII 20/month x 12 months = 240 ------------------------------------------------------ 600 RNZAF Kittyhawk IV 12/month x 5 months = 60 F4U-1D 25/month x 4 months = 100 ------------------------------------------------------- 160 RAF Spitfire Vc 12/month x 6 month = 72 Hurri IIc 36/month x 4 months = 144 Seafire IIc 6/month x 12 months = 72 Wildcat V 9/month x 12 months = 108 Spitfire VIII 32/month x 12 months = 384 Corsair II 16/month x 9 month = 144 Hellcat I 7/month x 10 months = 70 Thunderbolt I 40/month x 6 months = 240 Seafire L III 52/month x 3 months = 156 Thunderbolt II 45/month x 3 months = 135 Hellcat FII 4/month x 1 month = 54 --------------------------------------------------------- 1579 CHINESE P-40N 8/month x 12 month = 96 P-51D 12/month x 1 month = 12 --------------------------------------------------------- 108 TOTALS - Jan 44- Dec 44 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10658 +893 --------------------------------------------- 11551 (962.6/month) -

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 11:17:45 AM)
JANUARY 45 - DECEMBER 45 FIGHTERS - Incoming Groups JANUARY 45 24 FM-2 16 Spitfire VIII 16 Hurri IIc 16 Spitfire VIII 33 F6F-5 -------------------------------------------- 105 FEBRUARY 45 25 P-51D 25 " 25 " 18 F6F-5 15 F4U-1D --------------------------------------------------- 108 MARCH 45 25 P-47D25 33 F6F-5 33 F4U-1D --------------------------------------------- 91 APRIL 45 33 F6F-5 -------------------------------------------- 33 MAY 45 25 P-47N 25 " 25 " 33 F6F-5 ---------------------------------------------- 108 JUNE 45 25 P-47N 25 " 25 " 32 Yak-9 32 " 32 La-7 32 " 32 Yak-9U 32 " 32 " 32 " 32 " 32 LaGG-3 32 " 32 " 32 La-5FN 32 Yak-7B 32 " ------------------------------------------ 480 JULY 45 16 Spitfire VIII 16 " 24 Seafire III ---------------------------------------- 66 AUGUST 45 18 Corsair IV 18 " ----------------------------------------- 36 SEPTEMBER 45 ------------------------------------- 0 OCTOBER 45 16 F6-D 16 " 25 P-51H 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 " ----------------------------------------- 182 NOVEMBER 45 25 P-47N 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 " -------------------------------------------- 225 DECEMBER 45 25 P-80A 25 " 25 " 25 P-82B 25 " 25 " 25 P-47N 25 " 25 " 25 " 25 P-51H 25 " 25 " 25 " -------------------------------------------- 350 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1676/12 = 139.7/month PRODUCTION - JAN 45 through DEC 45 FIGHTERS USAAF P-38L 80/month x 12 months = 960 F-6D 25/month x 12 months = 300 P-51D 150/month x 8 months = 1200 P-47N 100/month x 10 months = 1000 P-51H 412/month x 4 = 1648 P-80A 75/month x 2 months = 150 P-82B 25/month x 1 month = 25 ----------------------------------------------------- 5283 USN/USMC F4U-1A 78/month x 6 months = 468 FM-2 128/month x 8 months = 1024 F6F-5 180/month x 11 months = 1980 F4U-1D 158/month x 6 months = 948 F4U-4 115/month x 7 months = 805 F8F-1 215/month x 4 months = 840 FR-1 18/month x 4 months = 52 ----------------------------------------------------- 6117 RAAF Kittyhawk IV 30/month x 2 months = 60 Spitfire VIII 20/month x 6 months = 120 P-51D 40/month x 6 months = 240 ------------------------------------------------------ 440 RNZAF P-51D 64/month x 5 months = 320 F4U-1D 25/month x 8 months = 200 ------------------------------------------------------- 520 RAF Spitfire VIII 32/month x 4 months = 128 Corsair II 16/month x 9 month = 144 Seafire L III 52/month x 7 months = 364 Thunderbolt II 45/month x 12 months = 540 Hellcat FII 54/month x 12 month = 648 Corsair IV 45/month x 9 months = 405 Wildcat VI 12/month x 9 months = 108 Spitfire F XIV 48/month x 7 months = 336 Seafire FX 52/month x 4 months = 208 Spitfire FR XIVe 16/month x 4 months = 64 Corsair V 36/month x 3 months = 108 Mustang IV 60/month x 3 months = 180 Tempest F2 36/month x 3 months = 108 --------------------------------------------------------- 3341 CHINESE P-40N 8/month x 12 month = 96 P-51D 12/month x 12 month = 144 --------------------------------------------------------- 240 SOVIET Yak-9 144/month x 12 month = 1728 La-5FN 80/month x 11 month = 880 Yak-9D 48/month x 11 months = 228 La-7 144/month x 7 months = 1008 Yak-9U 32/month x 7 months = 224 --------------------------------------------------------- 4068 TOTALS - Jan 45- Dec 45 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20109 +1676 --------------------------------------------- 21785 (1815.4/month) -

czert2 -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 11:51:14 AM)
wow, realy interesing post and very informative, put this way...i never thought that allied build up was so masive. And having something similiar for bombers will be another eye opener too :).

RogerJNeilson -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 12:27:58 PM)
Agreed, very useful.... even more so in a spreadsheet if anyone fancies doing it. A shame due to the 'flexibility' of the Empire's production there can be no comparison for production. Roger

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 12:53:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3 Agreed, very useful.... even more so in a spreadsheet if anyone fancies doing it. A shame due to the 'flexibility' of the Empire's production there can be no comparison for production. Roger Well, that is the next part. I'd like to go back from my own IJ games and do an 'average' production count, and then there could be some discussion as to what flexibility would be possible and likely given different scenarios and situations.

Historiker -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 1:01:32 PM)
Don't forget that there are many, many groups that have to be withdrawn - often losing their planes.

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 2:23:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Historiker Don't forget that there are many, many groups that have to be withdrawn - often losing their planes. I have only played the Allies a few years back, so I don't remember exactly how many, but I know there are some. Only a portion are 'disband only' though, right? Even of those isn't it often possible if planned in advance to 'save' many of those planes or substitute an obsolete airframe type to be lost?

Alfred -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 2:37:58 PM)
In practice not so easy as you need to completely fill the TOE of a withdrawing air unit to salvage what may well be a partial TOE of a frontline plane. Plus arriving groups don�t necessarily arrive with a filled TOE. Alfred

JocMeister -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 2:47:50 PM)
Wow! Amazing effort Erik. This should be stickied in the war room. [&o] I will certainly refer to this thread the next time I see the not so unusual "don�t forget the allies gets twice their production in incoming groups" [:D]

crsutton -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 2:56:12 PM)
Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend.[;)] But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..[:D]

Canoerebel -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 3:18:30 PM)
Thanks for the hard and useful work on this, Erik. Now, I'm looking forward to seeing you (and others) analyze the data to draw conclusion. I'm one of those Allied players convinced that the pool limitations are radically unfair to the Allies. Is that right or does the information prove differently? (I think it's right.)

Skyros -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 3:35:28 PM)
Here is a spreadsheet with stock allied air production on it. Maybe we can graft this data into it. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3282207

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 3:54:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend.[;)] But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..[:D] Well, we're engaged now, so I have a bit more time until the 'planning' begins in ernest. [;)] I am a teacher, so these first few weeks of summer I can do some things at leisure before my other projects are in full swing.

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 3:58:09 PM)
Walloc (Rasmus) pointed out that I've not included the upgrade to the P-38 line factory for the next model. If the Allied players can confirm this is how it works then I'll adjust those numbers. Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day. quote: PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43 FIGHTERS USAAF P-38G 20/month x 5 months = 100 P-38H 20/month x 6 months = 120 P-38J 10/month x 1 month = 10 As its 3 seperate factories in LA they will upgrade and continue to produce. U set it up as replacements(stopping at X date), not production aka once the G stops u dont add the 20 G model that will upgrade to the H model and keep producing and so on. So IMO it should look like this, not counting in that factories doesnt necesarrily upgrade on day one. So while overall numbers are right the individual numbers of each model can vary depending on day of upgrades in each different game. P-38G 20/month x 5 months = 100 P-38H 40/month x 6 months = 240 P-38J 50/month x 1 month = 50 Kind regards, Rasmus

catwhoorg -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:01:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI. (October 1941)

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:19:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catwhoorg quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI. (October 1941) Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:22:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catwhoorg quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI. (October 1941) Wow, and I've never gotten planes in October 41! How did you do that? [;)] It's been so long since really playing through the Allied side for me I'm not sure how often groups arrive unfilled, but most Allied players have mentioned that the groups usually do come complete and from what I can remember that seems right. That was the entire reason for starting this process. If there is more variability in this then I guess this list is not as useful as I'd hoped.

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:22:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: catwhoorg quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI. (October 1941) Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes. Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups?

fcharton -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:29:51 PM)
Hi Erik There's a glitch in your 1945 figures, you reported the reinforcements for 44 (893) instead of those for 45 (1676), the total is correct, though. quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day. I think you have the figures in Tracker plane production tab: under the TBO.YTA column, you two figures : the total number of planes, and the number you need to build, the difference is the number of planes that arrive as reinforcements throughout the game. For instance, in scen 2, the british avenger II are 0 (12), which mean the twelve of them arrive as reinforcements. In my opinion, there is no need to take withdrawing squadrons into account. The point of this analysis is to show what kind of losses the Allies can sustain before having to cut operations down. If you reach that level, as the allies, your squadrons will withdraw empty anyway. Francois

catwhoorg -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:30:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: catwhoorg quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI. (October 1941) Wow, and I've never gotten planes in October 41! How did you do that? [;)] It's been so long since really playing through the Allied side for me I'm not sure how often groups arrive unfilled, but most Allied players have mentioned that the groups usually do come complete and from what I can remember that seems right. That was the entire reason for starting this process. If there is more variability in this then I guess this list is not as useful as I'd hoped. 1942 ... stupid fat fingers. I'd have to check if they were all bombers, or some fighter groups.

Walloc -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:42:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: catwhoorg quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI. (October 1941) Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes. Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups? Just did a fast check at the USAAF F unit arriving in '42. Only 5 arrived with the full 25. Actually one had 32. Others vary much. 23, 18/17, 12, 6 , 2 being the most common numbers that the different groups arrives with. If u want it accurate then i fear u hafta go through them individually. Rasmus

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:42:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fcharton Hi Erik There's a glitch in your 1945 figures, you reported the reinforcements for 44 (893) instead of those for 45 (1676), the total is correct, though. quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day. I think you have the figures in Tracker plane production tab: under the TBO.YTA column, you two figures : the total number of planes, and the number you need to build, the difference is the number of planes that arrive as reinforcements throughout the game. For instance, in scen 2, the british avenger II are 0 (12), which mean the twelve of them arrive as reinforcements. In my opinion, there is no need to take withdrawing squadrons into account. The point of this analysis is to show what kind of losses the Allies can sustain before having to cut operations down. If you reach that level, as the allies, your squadrons will withdraw empty anyway. Francois Thanks. I'll correct that. The first was without the Soviets I think and I didn't change the top number. Yeah, all of this has been done without tracker so far as I just wanted to dig through the groups first and do it manually. Kind of let me get a feel for it. I also have more trouble 'seeing' the details in tracker, simply due to the visuals. I don't do as well with things that look like spreadsheets. I'll check it out though as I continue.

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:45:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Walloc quote: ORIGINAL: obvert quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: catwhoorg quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI. (October 1941) Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes. Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups? Just did a fast check at the USAAF F unit arriving in '42. Only 5 arrived with the full 25. Actually one had 32. Others vary much. 23, 18/17, 12, 6 , 2 being the most common numbers that the different groups arrives with. If u want it accurate then i fear u hafta go through them individually. Rasmus Insteresting. I wonder if there is variability in these numbers or if they always come the same, for instance if one P-40E unit always arrives with 12 out of 25?

janh -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 4:50:53 PM)
Nice work, obvert! One kind of knows that there is a lot in the queue all the time, but seeing these totals black on blue still gives a different feel to it. And this is only the F part, the bombers are surely just as impressive.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 6:21:17 PM)
Many Allied fighter squadrons in 43 arrive without a full complement. A good example are teh FM-1 equipped squadrons which arrive even before "production" starts. I had always assumed that arriving understrength squadrons had something to do with depleted pools....but quite possibly I made this up.

obvert -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 9:48:13 PM)
I took a quick look in the editor and it does seem there are some that don't arrive as full. I won't be able to edit to each partially full unit, but I'll have a look later at tracker and the Editor again and see if it's possible to approximate the numbers better. In the meantime I'll be working toward an 'average' Japanese production schedule.

LoBaron -> RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 (7/3/2013 10:45:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obvert Walloc (Rasmus) pointed out that I've not included the upgrade to the P-38 line factory for the next model. If the Allied players can confirm this is how it works then I'll adjust those numbers. Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes. I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day. quote: PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43 FIGHTERS USAAF P-38G 20/month x 5 months = 100 P-38H 20/month x 6 months = 120 P-38J 10/month x 1 month = 10 As its 3 seperate factories in LA they will upgrade and continue to produce. U set it up as replacements(stopping at X date), not production aka once the G stops u dont add the 20 G model that will upgrade to the H model and keep producing and so on. So IMO it should look like this, not counting in that factories doesnt necesarrily upgrade on day one. So while overall numbers are right the individual numbers of each model can vary depending on day of upgrades in each different game. P-38G 20/month x 5 months = 100 P-38H 40/month x 6 months = 240 P-38J 50/month x 1 month = 50 Kind regards, Rasmus This is missing P-38L production which would be 80 planes/month beginning with 44/06 until wars� end. P-38J production is 50 planes/month beginning with 43/12 for 6 months, thats 300, not 50. Then theres P51B production beginning 44/03 @ 30/month, after that P51D beginning 44/11 @ 120/month (the upgrading B plus the 90 D R&D), after that the P51H beginning 45/09 @ 250/month (the upgrading D plus the 130 H R&D). Great effort obvert, but the xls linked by Skyros practically covers everything already. Edit: Should there still be doubt: Yes, the factories upgrade to the most recent model at production start date immediately and completely. So for example all 50 P-38J change to L version on 44/06, adding to the 30 R&D, resulting in a total per month production of 80 beginning 44/06.

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