Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (Full Version)

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Panjack -> Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/3/2013 9:24:24 PM)

[added: lots of foolishness appearing in this post is corrected below!]

Just to make sure I'm not missing anything... From the perspective of the Allied player in the early years of the war:

1. The Allied player only needs HI to build a small number of selected aircraft at selected cities. These aircraft are listed at: Industry Management -> Air.
2. Building the AC in Los Angeles, San Diego, Vancouver, and Komsomolsk has near zero cost to the Allies and so they should be built. So let HI be generated in the relevant nations to produce these AC.
3. But the AC built in OZ are not critical. No reason to build them. Therefore, no HI is needed in OZ. Turn HI off in each OZ city (and don't repair them if damaged). Turning off HI also keeps fuel from being taken away from OZ ports (where it serves an important purpose).
4. AC are not built in NZ, India, China, and other places. Therefore, HI serves no purpose in these countries. Turn off HI in the cities located in these countries. Don't repair damaged HI factories.
5. Refineries produce fuel and supply from oil. In Canada and the US keep them going: no harm in doing so. It is good to be an industrialized country with lots of raw materials far from the fighting.
6. In OZ keep refineries going as there is a trickle of domestic oil available for refineries. But don't import oil to OZ. Just import fuel.
7. It's okay to keep refineries going in India and Russia. They have some domestic oil and the fuel produced might end up at a port. And the bit of supplies they produce can't hurt.
8. China: Fuel is not needed as HI isn't needed (and there are no ports held by the Allies in China in the early war years). But supplies are really hard to come by and, so, it makes sense to keep the refineries going in China (using domestic oil) to generate a bit of supply.
9. But it makes no sense to repair refineries in China as the costs of repairing them outweigh the benefits of more supply.

Thanks for any corrections.



Yaab -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/3/2013 9:41:22 PM)

ad 4. HI in India generates half of India's supply. Calcutta-Asansol HI complex pumps tons of supply for the Allied units on the Burma border - no need to haul supply from Colombo or Cape Town. Just feed India with fuel from Abadan and ship it to Bombay and voila - you have just created Bombay-Calcutta-Kalemyo superhighway that constantly pushes fuel to Calcutta and supplies to Kalemyo seven days a week. You could actually halt HI in other parts of India (Karachi, Lahore, Hyderabads) so the fuel from Bombay is sucked entirely by Calcutta-Asansol area.

ad 8. China produces enough fuel to feed the HI centers in the Chungking basin. Once again, this fuel should not wander around China - it should flow to Chungking basin only to generate maximum supply from HI there. Halt HI in Changsha, Sian and Kunming and let Chungking-Chengtu feed your troops with HI-derived food.



Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/3/2013 9:51:03 PM)

Edited....Yes I see from the manual the LI and HI both produce "supply" with no apparent difference between them. It is just that HI factories also produce "heavy industry points." Thanks!



Yaab -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/3/2013 10:00:08 PM)

1 HI center produces 2 HI points and 2 supply points, so it is beneficial to keep the HI producing in places when you need supplies. As I understand unused HI points should go to a global HI points pool and just sit there.



Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/3/2013 10:11:03 PM)

What is the constraint that India faces in HI production that makes turning off some HI in India reasonable? Fuel or Resources? Or is something else relevant?



wdolson -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/3/2013 10:34:26 PM)

HI points go into a pool so HI points generated in the US will be used in Australia to build planes. However HI is also somewhat more efficient at producing supply than LI. HI requires resources and fuel to make supply, but it requires less resources per point of supply than LI. LI consumes no fuel, but eats a lot more resources per supply point.

A handful of tankers shuttling between Adaban and Karachi can haul enough fuel to keep all HI in India running with fuel to spare. Unless you've lost a bunch of tankers, you should set up this run to keep India supplied with fuel. India produces enough resources that you don't have to ship any.

Some players shut off HI in Australia to spare fuel early on. It depends on how much fuel you can get to Australia. In 42 fuel will probably become tight if you're operating a lot of ships from Australian ports. If you can spare the fuel, you should leave HI on in Australia because it produces a lot of supply. Australia can produce enough supply to keep the country running as well as support a lot of Allied troops.

You can use AKs to haul fuel in a pinch. It's less efficient than TKs, but if Australia is getting low on fuel, it might be worth sending a few TFs with AKs loaded with fuel to Aus. If you've collected together all the AKs from the start of the game, you should have a lot of long legged AKs in US ports by March 42.

Bill



Numdydar -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/3/2013 10:38:14 PM)


As the allies ther is no reason to ever turn of industry? Why on earth would you want to. anyway? The Allies have piles of everytrhing so there is no shoratage like there is as Japan. Plus the Allies do not 'build' anything. All their planes are based on a fixed schedule/month. The Allies never have to mess with any production as it is totally unlike Japan's. The two systems are totally different.

As the Allies, you cannot expand AC factories, shipyards etc. What you have is what you get is just one example as to how the two sides are totally different.



Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 12:07:53 AM)

What is the best way to find out how much supply a city is producing? Does one simply go to Industry Management and check off HI, LI, and Refinery and then look at individual cities? (That is, as long as "Prod" = "Yes".) Then unless "Failed" has an "X" you know the maximum supply (indicated under "Size-producing") was produced for that city? Or is it the case that a number in red indicates too low of some input and, so, zero (or reduced?) output of the supply? I see that sometimes an X appears along with a number in red. At other times, no X appears but a number is in red.



chuckj118 -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 1:06:35 AM)

I have to agree with Numdydar that their is little reason to turn off anything on the allied side. In my games as the Allies I have never had much of an issue keeping the forces supplied; excepting some areas of China. There is a need to send oil, fuel and supply to Australia and India but the Allies have all the shipping they need(Just keep the convoys moving). You will have some fuelling issues if you send all the US battle fleet to Australia but I don't recommend doing something like that until early to mid 1943.

1) Keep your large convoys going into the big ports, don't make them so large they can't dock up.
2) Setup automatic convoys from those large ports using your smaller AK, AKL to distribute supplies regionally.
3) Send most of your smaller AK's in USA to the front to be used regionally and use the larger vessels for the runs to and from Australia and India. Use some of the shorter range US AK's to supply PH and other close in bases.
4) Remember to use multiple bases on both ends of your convoys to keep supplies moving. Everything does not have to come from San Francisco or arrive at Sydney. This becomes more and more important as the allied fleet grows.
5) Don't convert to many vessels to AP's. The allies need AK's as well. I try to only convert the faster AK's to AP's.

If you keep things organized you should have no problems keeping pretty much everywhere supplied.



wdolson -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 1:06:50 AM)

Industry management will tell you most of what you need. The column for the size of something also tells you what it produces each turn.

If a number is in red, that means there is not enough there to continue production. If the city with the factory or refinery is on a supply network it's possible enough will be moved there next turn or enough will be produced in the hex the next turn to continue production. Some cities will be chronically on the edge of not having enough, but the game engine will be able to scrape together enough every turn to keep industry running.

Production happens after supply and resource movement.

The Allies don't produce much, but the aircraft factories on the board do produce aircraft. If production is turned off you won't get that aircraft type.

Bill



PaxMondo -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 1:17:24 AM)

Bill,

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it the allied factories don't consume HI to produce. HI factories for the allies simply generate supply. Allied aircraft factories produce independent of HI, although there is never a shortage.



wdolson -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 1:32:37 AM)

Allied HI plants do generate HI, and I believe Allied A/C factories do use some of that HI, but you will end up with tons of extra HI because there is very little need. You can see your HI points pile up on the Industry Management screen. Other factories the Allies capture don't consume any HI and I don't think they make anything.



PaxMondo -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 3:55:29 AM)

Ah, didn't know that. Thought the "economy" only worked on the IJ side. Interesting, so for a mod you could work up the allied side economy ...



Numdydar -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 4:07:51 AM)

No as the game engine does not support that for the Allies. If the Allies do have AC factories that do use HI, I can almost garenttee that whatever planes are being build, you would never want anyway lol.



Justus2 -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 4:21:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

No as the game engine does not support that for the Allies. If the Allies do have AC factories that do use HI, I can almost garenttee that whatever planes are being build, you would never want anyway lol.


That's not true, there are many Allied AC factories on-map (LA and Seattle for sure, as well as some Catalina factories in Australia), that are included in the monthly pool numbers (IIRC Off-map are the Replacement column, on-map are the Production column, or vice versa). They are many of the 'normal' production planes. The reason it is transparent is CONUS produces more than enough HI points (and resources, fuel etc) that you can literally do nothing, and all the aircraft will produce. The few failure errors you get in Sydney, China etc for refineries or HI (like at PH) don't impact the ability to provide the inputs to the aircraft factories, just affects local supply/fuel availability.



PaxMondo -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 4:38:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

No as the game engine does not support that for the Allies. If the Allies do have AC factories that do use HI, I can almost garenttee that whatever planes are being build, you would never want anyway lol.

Well, that's what I thought, but Bill was on the orginal AE team so I have to defer to him. If the factories use HI then you 'could' develop the economy on the allied side ... theoretically. Not offering to do so ... my mod works the IJ side over pretty hard and that was as massive a project as I care to take on.



wdolson -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 5:06:08 AM)

The only Allied factories that use HI are aircraft factories, so to have any restrictions at all you would have to have a huge number of A/C factories or drastically limit the heavy industry on the Allied side, or both, which is not practical. While some Allied fan boys would love to be producing 1000 B-17s a turn, the game would get rather boring after a while.

All Allied ships and LCU devices are made magically, no on board construction. So there is no real way to model Allied production. Grisby may have thought about it, but there would be no way within the current system to prevent the US from speeding up construction on all ships advancing R&D on aircraft and producing massive numbers of aircraft. An Allied player who can manage supply and other resources as well as a skilled Japanese player would have Essex class carriers by late 42 and huge fleets of B-29s by late 43.

With Allied production all you can do is turn some industry types on and off, decide whether to repair some industries if they got damaged, and decide whether to upgrade A/C factories when the time comes. Not much else. You can have PBYs at the rate designated by the factory in the DB or not at all.

Bill



Yaab -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 7:08:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

What is the best way to find out how much supply a city is producing? Does one simply go to Industry Management and check off HI, LI, and Refinery and then look at individual cities? (That is, as long as "Prod" = "Yes".) Then unless "Failed" has an "X" you know the maximum supply (indicated under "Size-producing") was produced for that city? Or is it the case that a number in red indicates too low of some input and, so, zero (or reduced?) output of the supply? I see that sometimes an X appears along with a number in red. At other times, no X appears but a number is in red.


The best way to keep track of failed industry is to install Tracker and import Kull's region definitions. Then you can go to Industry tab,choose Regional Ind/Repair tab, choose region that interests you (i.e China), choose industry you want (LI,HI, res, manpower) and then sort the cities by Failed column.

For individual bases, choose Bases,then choose region that interests you, then specific base, then Object history, then specific industry and voila - the history of failure appears.



Numdydar -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 3:05:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

No as the game engine does not support that for the Allies. If the Allies do have AC factories that do use HI, I can almost garenttee that whatever planes are being build, you would never want anyway lol.


That's not true, there are many Allied AC factories on-map (LA and Seattle for sure, as well as some Catalina factories in Australia), that are included in the monthly pool numbers (IIRC Off-map are the Replacement column, on-map are the Production column, or vice versa). They are many of the 'normal' production planes. The reason it is transparent is CONUS produces more than enough HI points (and resources, fuel etc) that you can literally do nothing, and all the aircraft will produce. The few failure errors you get in Sydney, China etc for refineries or HI (like at PH) don't impact the ability to provide the inputs to the aircraft factories, just affects local supply/fuel availability.


Learn something new evey day [:)]

It has been years since I even looked at the Allied side and even then never bothered with even looking at any factories since I really did not care lol. I figured if the beginning setup was good enough to win the war, who am I to mess with it. God knows the Allies have enought to do and keep track of without messing with their industy too [:D]



Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 3:56:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

What is the best way to find out how much supply a city is producing? Does one simply go to Industry Management and check off HI, LI, and Refinery and then look at individual cities? (That is, as long as "Prod" = "Yes".) Then unless "Failed" has an "X" you know the maximum supply (indicated under "Size-producing") was produced for that city? Or is it the case that a number in red indicates too low of some input and, so, zero (or reduced?) output of the supply? I see that sometimes an X appears along with a number in red. At other times, no X appears but a number is in red.


The best way to keep track of failed industry is to install Tracker and import Kull's region definitions. Then you can go to Industry tab,choose Regional Ind/Repair tab, choose region that interests you (i.e China), choose industry you want (LI,HI, res, manpower) and then sort the cities by Failed column.

For individual bases, choose Bases,then choose region that interests you, then specific base, then Object history, then specific industry and voila - the history of failure appears.


But what is the difference between a factory that has "failed" and a factory that has some input in red (as the amount of this input falls short of that needed (but has not "failed")?

For instance, in the 3rd row (below) the factory has only 136 (in red) of the 672 required fuel but no "X" appears. But in the 5th row the factory has 261 of the required 320 fuel. Although in this case the factory has 82% of the required fuel (261/320), this factory has "failed."

[I don't know why the red numbers are so fuzzy]
[Now not so fuzzy]


[image]local://upfiles/32247/3948D20B3F5F4194BF33AE50DC150426.gif[/image]



Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 4:06:40 PM)

You picture is not visible. But, the red X means it did not produce last turn. The red requirements mean that there is not presently enough to produce next turn, but things might move and fix that during the turn resolution.



Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 4:20:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

You picture is not visible. But, the red X means it did not produce last turn. The red requirements mean that there is not presently enough to produce next turn, but things might move and fix that during the turn resolution.

Thanks!




Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 5:43:18 PM)

Is it ever worthwhile to repair damaged HI factories?



Numdydar -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 8:17:01 PM)

Yes. At least until near the end as Japan. Even if you do not need th HI, the on site supply generation is very handy in many cases.




wdolson -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/4/2013 10:16:11 PM)

For the Allies every point of supply generated nearer the front is one less point needed to be hauled from the US.

The red on the screenshots doesn't render very well because the specific red used in game confuses JPEG compression algorithms. If you look just about all screen shots have blurry red.

Bill



Yaab -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/5/2013 6:52:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

Is it ever worthwhile to repair damaged HI factories?


Only if you have fuel for them. There are some damaged HI factories in Allied China, but the Chinese cannot produce enough fuel to the repaired HI factories.



sandman455 -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/5/2013 1:53:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The red on the screenshots doesn't render very well because the specific red used in game confuses JPEG compression algorithms. If you look just about all screen shots have blurry red.

Bill



Thanks for solving that mystery. I thought it was just another issue with this gamer growing old. [:)]



Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/5/2013 2:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
The red on the screenshots doesn't render very well because the specific red used in game confuses JPEG compression algorithms. If you look just about all screen shots have blurry red.

Bill

That is odd. The problem can be easily solved via photoshop (using as the first step Select -> Color Range)...as was now done in the image above.



Panjack -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/5/2013 3:06:35 PM)

Just to confirm: repairing one point of HI requires 1,000 supply points (and a minimum stock of 10,000 points is required in the city to do repairs). In turn, each point of HI generates 2 supply points. So it would take 500 days to break even if you repair HI.




Numdydar -> RE: Allied Heavy Industry (HI) and Refineries (7/5/2013 4:50:35 PM)

Actually things will repair without the 10K in stock It is just their repair will just be slowed down if you do not have enough in the pool.



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