Parafrag Bombs (Full Version)

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Bullwinkle58 -> Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:22:33 PM)

A discussion elsewhere led me to look up some photos of parafrags. Most are PTO. Of those most are NG or Rabaul.



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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:23:16 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:23:39 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:24:02 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:24:24 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:24:49 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:25:17 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:25:45 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:26:11 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:26:35 PM)

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Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 9:27:00 PM)

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oldman45 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 11:12:48 PM)

If only I could get them to work in game.




Sardaukar -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 11:24:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

If only I could get them to work in game.



One idea I had was model bundle of them as PGM, but never tried it. Don't know if they even work vs. land targets.




tc464 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/18/2013 11:42:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

One idea I had was model bundle of them as PGM, but never tried it. Don't know if they even work vs. land targets.



They would be useful against airfields, light material targets like trucks and the like. In dense jungle they would be next to useless. The two fuzes illustrated are designed to go off instantly and at odd angles (sometimes called an all-ways fuze), so they would go off at the tops of canopies.

I've blown up a few of these and let me tell you, that frag sleeve would have no problems slicing up troops and vehicles in the open.




1EyedJacks -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 12:52:44 AM)

Kinda the same topic...

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/exhibits/ww2/threat/balloon.htm




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LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 7:11:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

text



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Looks like a pilot is trying to board the plane (between cockpit and right engine) - bad idea I'd say...


Or he is leaving - in a hurry...




Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 8:35:17 AM)

excuse my ignorance... what is the benefit of a parafrag bomb? better accuracy?




RogerJNeilson -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 9:34:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

excuse my ignorance... what is the benefit of a parafrag bomb? better accuracy?


Allows you to fly low and drop bombs which fall slower and more in a straight line, so better accuracy and allows you to have flown a few more feet away before it goes off and shreds you as well as the target - is my assumption.

This is fascinating pictorial stuff which shows how low the attacks could be.... but they are all (understandably) daylight raids so my question raised elsewhere, is would low level bombing be done at night??

Thread on low level night bombing

Roger




crsutton -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 5:19:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

excuse my ignorance... what is the benefit of a parafrag bomb? better accuracy?


Allows you to fly low and drop bombs which fall slower and more in a straight line, so better accuracy and allows you to have flown a few more feet away before it goes off and shreds you as well as the target - is my assumption.

This is fascinating pictorial stuff which shows how low the attacks could be.... but they are all (understandably) daylight raids so my question raised elsewhere, is would low level bombing be done at night??

Thread on low level night bombing

Roger


And safer. Although it seems counter intuitive, very low level bombing gives fewer AA guns the opportunity to fire and vastly shortens the TOT for any one AA gun. It is also much more difficult to train a gun on a low flying aircraft unless the aircraft is flying directly towards or away from the gun. Things such as hills, buildings and trees can provide some cover from AA fire as well. Bombers would go in low and fast and in line abreast thus saturating the area with targets while delivering a maximum load in the fastest time. One pass and that was it. Giving gunners very little time to react.

Not to say it was not dangerous though.




Sardaukar -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 5:42:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tc464


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

One idea I had was model bundle of them as PGM, but never tried it. Don't know if they even work vs. land targets.



They would be useful against airfields, light material targets like trucks and the like. In dense jungle they would be next to useless. The two fuzes illustrated are designed to go off instantly and at odd angles (sometimes called an all-ways fuze), so they would go off at the tops of canopies.

I've blown up a few of these and let me tell you, that frag sleeve would have no problems slicing up troops and vehicles in the open.


I did mean in game, I know they worked just fine in real life. [8D]




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 7:37:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

excuse my ignorance... what is the benefit of a parafrag bomb? better accuracy?


Allows you to fly low and drop bombs which fall slower and more in a straight line, so better accuracy and allows you to have flown a few more feet away before it goes off and shreds you as well as the target - is my assumption.

This is fascinating pictorial stuff which shows how low the attacks could be.... but they are all (understandably) daylight raids so my question raised elsewhere, is would low level bombing be done at night??

Thread on low level night bombing

Roger


And safer. Although it seems counter intuitive, very low level bombing gives fewer AA guns the opportunity to fire and vastly shortens the TOT for any one AA gun. It is also much more difficult to train a gun on a low flying aircraft unless the aircraft is flying directly towards or away from the gun. Things such as hills, buildings and trees can provide some cover from AA fire as well. Bombers would go in low and fast and in line abreast thus saturating the area with targets while delivering a maximum load in the fastest time. One pass and that was it. Giving gunners very little time to react.

Not to say it was not dangerous though.


Jimmy Doolittle had read that manual.




jeffk3510 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/19/2013 11:36:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

excuse my ignorance... what is the benefit of a parafrag bomb? better accuracy?


Allows you to fly low and drop bombs which fall slower and more in a straight line, so better accuracy and allows you to have flown a few more feet away before it goes off and shreds you as well as the target - is my assumption.

This is fascinating pictorial stuff which shows how low the attacks could be.... but they are all (understandably) daylight raids so my question raised elsewhere, is would low level bombing be done at night??

Thread on low level night bombing

Roger


And safer. Although it seems counter intuitive, very low level bombing gives fewer AA guns the opportunity to fire and vastly shortens the TOT for any one AA gun. It is also much more difficult to train a gun on a low flying aircraft unless the aircraft is flying directly towards or away from the gun. Things such as hills, buildings and trees can provide some cover from AA fire as well. Bombers would go in low and fast and in line abreast thus saturating the area with targets while delivering a maximum load in the fastest time. One pass and that was it. Giving gunners very little time to react.

Not to say it was not dangerous though.


Jimmy Doolittle had read that manual.


You mean Alec Baldwin?




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/20/2013 1:11:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

excuse my ignorance... what is the benefit of a parafrag bomb? better accuracy?


Allows you to fly low and drop bombs which fall slower and more in a straight line, so better accuracy and allows you to have flown a few more feet away before it goes off and shreds you as well as the target - is my assumption.

This is fascinating pictorial stuff which shows how low the attacks could be.... but they are all (understandably) daylight raids so my question raised elsewhere, is would low level bombing be done at night??

Thread on low level night bombing

Roger


And safer. Although it seems counter intuitive, very low level bombing gives fewer AA guns the opportunity to fire and vastly shortens the TOT for any one AA gun. It is also much more difficult to train a gun on a low flying aircraft unless the aircraft is flying directly towards or away from the gun. Things such as hills, buildings and trees can provide some cover from AA fire as well. Bombers would go in low and fast and in line abreast thus saturating the area with targets while delivering a maximum load in the fastest time. One pass and that was it. Giving gunners very little time to react.

Not to say it was not dangerous though.


Jimmy Doolittle had read that manual.


You mean Alec Baldwin?


Oooooh, look at the brave man, Canoerebel on vacation and all . . . [:)]




fodder -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/20/2013 2:03:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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Looks like a test drop, those are U.S. jeeps and trucks on the ground with men just standing there watching.




bigred -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/20/2013 2:57:32 AM)

Is it possible to change combat load on a20 or b25. Instead of 6x500lb bombs use 24x 100lb bombs. If attack catches defender in move or rest then what would be the effect?




Dili -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/21/2013 1:12:31 AM)

The problem is game engine. Since it appears doesn't have the two necessary checks:
Check nš1: Is it over target?
Yes>go to check nš2
No> No hits

Check nš2: Odds to hit.

The game appears to have only check nš2, so many bombs almost always assures that one hit.




sandman455 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/21/2013 1:37:46 PM)

My thoughts on this thread an the other on night bombing in the War Room
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3366301&mpage=2�:

100' Bombing Setting in Game:

The altitude isn't real. It's a number that the game engine uses to calculate your hit chance among other things. This selection signifies that you are requesting the airgroup maximize its hit chance by bombing at the LOWEST possible altitude for the terrain, weapon, fuse settings, etc. It does not represent 100' AGL. A selection of 1000, 5000, 10000, etc would mean that you are requesting they use an altitude that much above the lowest possible. Your hit chance will be modified accordingly from best altitude setting of 100'.

I've dropped a few bombs and you can't drop anything significant @ 100'. You would need special ordnance with special retard/fuse settings like a parafrag which was 20-something lbs. Any issues/failures with your retard mechanism or fuse could lead to serious trouble if the weapon has a substantial frag pattern. Read about Operation Chastise - they used long fuses and special ordnance. They planned for months. They hand picked very skilled pilots. They lost 8 of 19 aircraft and many were to their own bombs. Yes they were brave and IMHO stupid. I've posted about skipping a bomb before. You don't do it any more - water or land. Just too dumb. Back then, with a good fuse (they had no retard mechanism) you'd need to be 200-400' off the water for some margin of safety from your own bomb bouncing right back up and smacking the bottom of your plane. If the fuse fails, hope your life insurance is paid up. If there is AA present, may luck be kind to you.

Parafrags:

The parachute is the retard mechanism for the bomb. That is all. It bestows no special benefits to the weapon and actually severely degrades its accuracy. It mandates that the bomb be dropped at tree-top level or you will have no hope of hitting anything you were aiming at.

If you want them in your game - simply use the editor to give the aircraft that load out. You can use the switches to control the mission if would like. Use a generous quantity on the extended profile since a non-attack bomber 2E would be using this for the mission. It will require that you remember to opt for the 100' selection on missions. Good luck against a target with any real AA.

IMHO the parafrag was not a successful weapon. I'm guessing they were not well received by the aircrew. If you think about the delivery requirement to make them work you will begin to understand why. You simply can't load these things up and kick the tires and light the fires. The planning required is far greater than the normal stuff. If your target is operational and with AA, you will need some waypoints to get surprise. You'll need a rock solid IP that you can easily see on the deck and under combat conditions. You'll need to fly dangerously low and maintain course/speed numbers so you know where you are on your delivery. Mess any of it up and the least you will do is miss the target or bring your bombs back home. On the other end of the possible outcomes is a smoking hole. If you lose surprise for whatever reason, your AA problems will give you nightmares. I can honestly tell you that all of these issues are big morale hits even before the bombs get loaded on the plane.

I posted something about this before. These low level missions are not what was going on in 1944-45 that you see pictures of and read about. Those missions were CAS and interdiction. Totally different stuff. In CAS you tool around at altitude waiting for someone to call you in and give you a mark. Easy, fun and if you don't see the mark you don't drop ordnance. Interdiction is even better. There you tool around at altitude and you pick the target. Anything moving on the roads or RR tracks and you dive in for your glory. Both of these missions are characterized by just loitering around waiting for your target to appear or get marked. These two missions are actually a big morale boost for units. And they are nothing like a low level mission such as dropping parafrags. A low level mission is really a strike on a fixed position - not so much a target. If the target is mobile, you may miss even with a flawlessly executed mission. Additionally, that target will often have a prepared defense. Not the case at all with CAS and Interdiction stuff - it is a cake walk in comparison.

Night Bombing:

Tactical night bombing in WW2 was pretty limited. You could do some if you had everything working for you and some good landmarks. But this is the Pacific theater and unless your target is an entire island, you aren't going to be able to use all the wonderful stuff they had in Europe to guide the way. A jungle, beach or the backcountry of Asia isn't going to cut it.

Bombing a city or town, sure. Bombing a port - maybe with some moonlight and great weather. Bombing an airfield - ugh - only with some help from dropped flares or star shells (IJN at Wake for example). And again you need a great moon and perfect weather. Everything other mission is out of the question IMO.

BTW - I'd have to recommend no low level night bombing unless you tell your opponent your plan a month before so he can stack the deck against you. It is that bad. Plus the player should research the hex. Find the highest peak in that hex - and then select the next highest altitude for your mission height. A mountain trumps AA everytime.

Thanks for reading.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/21/2013 6:48:20 PM)

I can comment with some authority on submarines, but for the air stuff I like to read posts like yours from someone who has more than book learning. I think you make several very good points which are often forgotten or unmentioned in these many threads about the game's bombing modules.

--100 feet doesn't mean 100 feet. Yes, the button says that. But players are too literal.

--two massively important air mission types--important especially to the Allies from mid-war on--are CAS and interdiction, and they are largely missing from the game. Troop bombing while in route march is available, but no infrastructure attacks on transport structure. Also, several ordnance types very prevalent in the PTO are not in the game. These include air-to-ground rockets, napalm, and white phosphorous devices. These were CAS and interdiction weapons more or less, and Japan did not use them or used less perfected versions of them. To some extent players should see the bombing modules as designed to include these missing mission types inherently and at a second-order, and not take the mission name literally and in isolation.

--the beta code at present includes stiff penalties in coordination and RTBs for night attacks, these attacks nevertheless consuming the supplies a successful mission would. Night bombing is far from a panacea for the attacker.




crsutton -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (7/23/2013 5:45:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

Is it possible to change combat load on a20 or b25. Instead of 6x500lb bombs use 24x 100lb bombs. If attack catches defender in move or rest then what would be the effect?


In game terms, my prior testing showed that with bombs, bigger is always better.




jmolyson -> RE: Parafrag Bombs (3/30/2015 11:12:47 PM)

Airfield attacks by 5th Air Force using parafrags were extremely successful in destroying Japanese aircraft,
field equipment and airfield personnel. The bombs supplemented batteries of forward-firing
.50 caliber machine guns retrofitted to A-20s and B-25s. The bomb was so successful in the
particular environment in which 5th AF operated that the commander, MG Kenney, essentially
asked for the entire stockpile.

Kenney himself had invented the bomb to do exactly what his airmen did with it -
destroy Japanese airpower on the ground. In one attack it essentially destroyed
the Japanese 4th Air Army, chewed to pieces by strafing and parafrags at Wewak
on 13 Aug 43.

As for skip bombing, it was also extremely effective as seen in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea.
Again A-20s and B-25s fitted with batteries of 50 caliber machine guns in the nose sunk 8
transports, 4 destroyers and some 4500 troops.

The game may not model the ordnance nor the tactics properly, but that's a game engine problem,
not a reflection on the actual ordnance or its effectiveness.

I don't know how the campaign in the Southwest Pacific could be properly simulated without
this ordnance.

32 years - Air Force Operational Intelligence
60 years of reading history

read General Kenney Reports, Fire in the Sky or the Flying Buccaneers for more info.






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