Something different (Full Version)

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Captain Cruft -> Something different (7/20/2013 9:27:35 PM)

I would like to try a game which reflects what Japan perhaps ought to have done i.e. attack the Soviet Union and leave America alone. There is a small chance that without a direct attack on American property the country would have remained out of the war so this is about gaming that unlikely but still possible scenario.

What I have done is taken stock Scenario 1 and completely removed all American & Philippine bases and units but also activated the Soviets from turn 1. There are also some tweaks to the air game which I feel are warranted, namely no airfield has an SPS > 5 and most planes cannot fly over 27,000ft. Initial stockpiles on both sides have also been reduced a bit, and repairing and therefore expanding industry has been made extremely expensive (except for aircraft and engines).

Needless to say I would like to play as the Evil Empire so I am looking for an Allied opponent. We would use the stacking limits map and the Beta EXE, and play with PDU On. A non-historical turn 1 is obviously required.

House Rules

Very simple ...

No landings on non-base hexes.
No 4Es on Ground Attack.
No bombers below 6,000ft except designated Attack Bombers (if there are any).

I can do a turn a day most of the time and will stick it out whatever happens in the game.

N.B. The Allies still get US aircraft types as per normal. The assumption would be that these are acquired on a commercial basis.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 12:28:04 AM)

Couple of small problems "Captain". One..., did you replace the 30 Soviet "Siberian Divisions" sent to Moscow? They only moved when Richard Sorge was able to confirm that the Japanese were not going to attack the USSR, which he wouldn't be able to do in this case. And what happens when Japan runs out of oil, rubber, tin, and all the other reasons why they chose to go South in the real world? Just askin'...



Captain Cruft -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 1:00:34 AM)

Good point about the divisions which went to Moscow. That should be addressed, I can create a bunch of Soviet Rifle Divisions in various places which will make life much harder for the Kwantung Army.

As to going South, well that is still there. It's only the Philippines which has been removed.

I did wonder if this might be a tad controversial. That is not my intent, just looking for a different sort of game.



Terminus -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 1:07:19 AM)

Two Siberian divisions went to Moscow, not 30. Just putting that out there.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 1:12:43 AM)

quote:

repairing and therefore expanding industry has been made extremely expensive


It is also worth noting that this statement amounts to a massive nerfing of Japanese capability. Each factory point will require 5,000 supplies to repair instead of 1,000.

I would play this as the Allies too.



warspite1 -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 1:13:51 AM)

Captain Cruft, I wonder if it would have made a real difference? Looking at the performance of the Japanese Army - both during WWII and during the Nomonhan campaign - my feeling is that the Japanese would have been hugely embarrassed if they attacked, even a weakened, Soviet Union.

As an aside - What would the effect be on the fighting around Moscow if the reinforcements from the east were not available? I don't know enough of the detail, but I suspect the Germans would still have been in major trouble..



Terminus -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 1:16:15 AM)

They would have been. The Siberians are a myth, similar to the "Hitler didn't provide winter clothes" story.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 1:17:15 AM)

Yes the IJA is over-matched by the Red Army. That in a sense is the point. Substitute the huge naval and air power of the US for the huge land power of Russia.

I will definitely bump up the Soviet initial dispositions.

As to the effect on the Germans well it is impossible to model that in game so I would just leave all British reinforcements and withdrawals as per stock.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Something different (7/21/2013 3:28:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Two Siberian divisions went to Moscow, not 30. Just putting that out there.


Termi. What is your source for this? It certainly doesn't jive with anything I've seen.



morejeffs -> RE: Something different (7/22/2013 8:51:31 AM)

Also....Just not really sure if the system was built with Russian/Japanese land war in mind...Not saying you can not use AE to be the simulator, just saying that this is not as detailed for land war as some of the Eastern Front games...Might be value (if you really wanted to simulate this) in taking a good East Front game with an editor and making the Japan scenario...Just a thought.

Clearly, there is a big what if in what would have happened had Japan not attacked PI/PH to start...What would have caused the US to actually start? Hard to say (or better yet,
how could the US have "tricked" Japan in attacking a small force and then use that as a causa belli for a declaration of war.....Very interesting but very hard to say in game terms.



MDDgames -> RE: Something different (7/22/2013 12:44:54 PM)

Units transferred were:
26th Rifle Far East 11th Army, Northweatern Front, Sept 41
21st Rifle Siberia Far East7th Seperate Army, Sept 41
114th Rifle T Baikal 7th Seperate Army, Sept 41
92nd Rifle Far East 4th Separate Army, (in Volkhov area), Oct 41
65th Rifle T Baikal 4th Army, Volkhov Front, Nov 41
32nd Rifle Volga/Sib 5th Army, Western Front, Oct 41
93rd Rifle Siberia T Baikal43rd Army, Western Front, Oct 41
78th Rifle Far East 16th Army, Western Front, Oct-Nov 41
238th Rifle* Cen Asia 49th Army, Western Front, Oct 41
58th Tank* Far East 16th Army, Western Front, Nov 41
60th Tank* Far East 4th Sep Army, (in Volkhov area), Oct 41
82nd Mech T Baikal 5th Army, Western Front, Nov 41
18th Mtn Cav Cen Asia 30th Army, Kalinin Front, Nov 41
20th Mtn Cav Cen Asia 16th Army Western Front, Nov 41
* Only started forming in March-April 1941

Of the 14 transferred, only 3 were actually Siberian ("largely" Siberian to quote the source). Of these 3 only 2 were sent to the Moskow area (32nd and 93rd). Which is where he probably got confused, as only 2 "Siberian divisions" were actually sent to the Moscow area. But it doesnt mean that only 2 divisions were actually transferred west from the WitP area of the map....

(I cant post the link, but here it is)
operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-Busters/Mythbusters3.html



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Something different (7/22/2013 3:55:30 PM)

"Of the 14 transferred, only 3 were actually Siberian ("largely" Siberian to quote the source). Of these 3 only 2 were sent to the Moscow area (32nd and 93rd). Which is where he probably got confused, as only 2 "Siberian divisions" were actually sent to the Moscow area. But it doesn't mean that only 2 divisions were actually transferred west from the WitP area of the map....".

Excellent. And geographically speaking, virtually EVERYTHING East of the Ural Mountains is in Siberia. I appologise for the "30 Divisions". Not sure what dusty crate in my brain that escaped from.



MDDgames -> RE: Something different (7/22/2013 11:08:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"Of the 14 transferred, only 3 were actually Siberian ("largely" Siberian to quote the source). Of these 3 only 2 were sent to the Moscow area (32nd and 93rd). Which is where he probably got confused, as only 2 "Siberian divisions" were actually sent to the Moscow area. But it doesn't mean that only 2 divisions were actually transferred west from the WitP area of the map....".

Excellent. And geographically speaking, virtually EVERYTHING East of the Ural Mountains is in Siberia. I appologise for the "30 Divisions". Not sure what dusty crate in my brain that escaped from.


28 divisions total were transferred from 22 Jun 41 to the end of the year. Thats probably where you got the "30" from. But only 14 of those were released after they found out the Japanese had no plans to attack.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Something different (7/23/2013 1:51:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"Of the 14 transferred, only 3 were actually Siberian ("largely" Siberian to quote the source). Of these 3 only 2 were sent to the Moscow area (32nd and 93rd). Which is where he probably got confused, as only 2 "Siberian divisions" were actually sent to the Moscow area. But it doesn't mean that only 2 divisions were actually transferred west from the WitP area of the map....".

Excellent. And geographically speaking, virtually EVERYTHING East of the Ural Mountains is in Siberia. I appologise for the "30 Divisions". Not sure what dusty crate in my brain that escaped from.


28 divisions total were transferred from 22 Jun 41 to the end of the year. Thats probably where you got the "30" from. But only 14 of those were released after they found out the Japanese had no plans to attack.



Thanks "MD". It's nice to know that my brain hasn't completely rotted. [;)]



castor troy -> RE: Something different (7/24/2013 7:48:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

They would have been. The Siberians are a myth, similar to the "Hitler didn't provide winter clothes" story.



No idea what Hitler did but the Wehrmacht didn't provide nearly enough winter clothes for the troops, let alone clothing that was suited for a Russian winter.



zuluhour -> RE: Something different (7/26/2013 3:26:01 PM)

This could get hot.



jonreb31 -> RE: Something different (7/26/2013 9:33:55 PM)

Captain Cruft, if you're still looking for an opponent perhaps I could accommodate your demise. I've always wanted to try a soviet war in WiTP but never had the guts as Japan.



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