Stripping your CVs (Full Version)

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Knavey -> Stripping your CVs (1/11/2003 4:01:00 AM)

How many of you take your planes off the CVs prior to sending them back to Pearl for repair?

Do you have a house rule in place to prevent that?

What if the CV sinks...can the planes stay in theater, or do you send them back?

Feinder and I have basically agreed to keep the fighters in theater, but the other aircraft are returning with the CVs.

The air groups that were mauled when the CVs went under I am slowly rebuilding and reforming them in theater.




Feinder -> (1/11/2003 4:07:51 AM)

We're just asking what others are doing, and if anyone has any documentation of what happened to the groups historically.

What happened to the airgroups from the Wasp and Hornet when they went down? Where they withdrawn or were they stationed somewhere in theater?

What happened to the airgroups on the Shok and Zui when they were damaged in the Coral Sea? Were they retained in theater or did they return to Japan with thier carriers for 6 month vacation?

-F-


*** Edit : Not that it matters because we've arleady agreed to hold fighters, but I found this on the history of VF-2 (assigned to Lex) that was sunk at Coral Sea. It looks like the airgroup was "withdrawn" (in game terms) and later arrived in theater.

[URL=http://www.vf2.org/history.aspx]Website with unit history of VF-2[/URL]




LargeSlowTarget -> (1/11/2003 5:42:59 AM)

From what I could find in a hurry in my library:

After Saratoga had been torpedoed on August 31, her SBD groups Scouting-3 and Bombing-3 together with some planes from Fighting-5 were flown off to Espiritu Santo and then commited to Henderson Field, where they were joined by the rest of Air Group 3.
When Wasp was sunk September 15, a large part of her Air Group 7 was lost aboard. Only Scouting-71 was left nearly intact because the planes had been out on patrol and search missions, they landed aboard Hornet.
Some Enterprise planes also ended up on the 'canal after she was damaged in the Battle of the Eastern Solomons.
Some of Hornet's planes made it aboard Enterprise during Santa Cruz, others had to ditch.

Sorry, no idea off hand how long the Carrier Air Groups stayed at Henderson or what happened to them. Someone else can provide more info, I'm sure.




loader6 -> (1/11/2003 6:06:28 AM)

In my games I've never used any house rules. I definately wouldn't mind doing so though because stripping an air group from a carrier seems gamey. Then again it doesn't bother me too much either though. I look forward to WITP when you actually have to get the ships back to PH or the west coast or wherever and we'll probably see less of this stripping then.




Drex -> (1/11/2003 8:32:40 AM)

If my carrier is damaged and I had to send her to Pearl, I usually keep the air groups in the theater because I don't think they would store the planes on a damaged ship heading to Pearl. I will build the air units up and use them on another carrier which seems logical to me. I don't consider CAGs married to their ship.




Howard Mitchell -> (1/11/2003 6:44:41 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feinder
[B]
What happened to the airgroups on the Shok and Zui when they were damaged in the Coral Sea? Were they retained in theater or did they return to Japan with thier carriers for 6 month vacation? [/B][/QUOTE]

Shokaku returned to Kure on the 17 May for repairs. The carrier air group was reorganised and underwent training at Kanoya and Saeki from 30 May onwards, leaving the Inland Sea back aboard Shokaku heading to the Solomons area on 16 august.

Zuikaku’s air group also disembarked and resumed training in the southern part of Kyushu. It re-embarked when Zuikaku sortied from the Inland Sea on 15 June to support the withdrawal of the defeated Midway invasion force, followed by operations south of the Kurile Islands. She returned to Ominato on 25 June and then returned to the Inland Sea. Following the formation of the 3rd Fleet on 14 July her reorganised air group underwent intensive training at Kanoya and Saeki before also proceeding to the Solomons.

Source – Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in WWII, by Hata and Izawa, Naval Institute Press.

Depending on circumstances both sides either left air units in theatre or retired them when their carrier was sunk or damaged. The Japanese often stripped carriers of their air groups to operate from land bases in 1943, much to their cost as they were often committed partly-trained and then wiped out, meaning that they had to rebuild them with inexperienced pilots yet again.

Without having the ‘big picture’ in UV the temptation is always to keep air units in theatre of course




walk70 -> (1/12/2003 6:50:45 AM)

You know, this looks like this should be a theatre general's decision, and since the player is that general than it should be his decision. I feel that if in theatre the air picture is looking bad than I might be inclined to keep the planes in theatre, but if I think the other assets in theatre can handle the load I would send them back for refit and training. I understand the house rule, but I think the only house rule should be the players agree to consider the affect their actions might have on the rest of the war, which is not represented in the game. This should lead the player to exercise a term we used in the real navy, "economy of force".
Yea War in the Pacific will eliminate this unrealistic assigning of airgroups or wasteful deployment of assets that are sometimes seen in UV, but by trying to act like UV is part of a bigger war picture will lead to better deployment and less waste in the use of assets without limiting a General's options with hard and fast requirements. I hope this makes sense. ;)

PS I have in other venues flown planes from carriers to a nearby base to a) protect the carriers from superior enemy forces by allowing them to retire from the theatre and b) to bolster the air defense capabilities of the base. A well defended base is the mythical unsinkable carrier. It just isn't too mobile!




Admiral DadMan -> (1/12/2003 12:08:12 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]If my carrier is damaged and I had to send her to Pearl, I usually keep the air groups in the theater because I don't think they would store the planes on a damaged ship heading to Pearl. I will build the air units up and use them on another carrier which seems logical to me. I don't consider CAGs married to their ship. [/B][/QUOTE]When the carrier goes back to Pearl/Tokyo, it's planes go back into the pool, and the pilots stay attached to the carrier.

The big reason I keep an A/G in theater would be if you need the flexibility of an Air Group, and not just the planes.




Drex -> (1/12/2003 12:49:56 PM)

That isn't possible when a carrier is damaged and the planes in the air fly to the nearest carrier or air base. I would think they would be used to fill mssing units on other carriers, even CVEs, at least that is what I do with them. Or I send them to TRuk/Pearl to build up to strength.




bradfordkay -> (1/12/2003 1:16:48 PM)

My question concerns the situation when you remove the AG from a seriously damaged CV before returning her to Pearl Harbor. When she finally returns to the the theatre does she have a new air group or is she empty?

In all the scenarios I've played so far, I've never had a seriously damaged CV make it back to the theatre to answer this question.




bilbow -> (1/12/2003 1:19:05 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bradfordkay
[B]My question concerns the situation when you remove the AG from a seriously damaged CV before returning her to Pearl Harbor. When she finally returns to the the theatre does she have a new air group or is she empty?

She comes back to the game empty.




bradfordkay -> (1/12/2003 1:30:43 PM)

Thanks, Bilbow. It has been this type of quick, helpful response that sets wargame forums so far above the rest of the internet...




Drex -> (1/12/2003 11:17:14 PM)

That's true, I sent the Junyo back empty and she is returning empty but I have air squadrons from other carriers waiting for her.




Nikademus -> (1/13/2003 12:51:23 AM)

I know now from personal experience that Cap likes to strip his carriers.....whether or not the carrier is going trans-oceanic.

He's a booger. :p

We'll get him though.......get him and his little dog too.

(evil cackle)




bradfordkay -> (1/13/2003 1:04:35 AM)

I kind of feel that stripping a carrier of its AG is legit if she's in a major port and the carrier has so much system damage that she can't launch a/c. Especially if the situation is dire...the problem is fitting the AG back on the carrier after she returns.




Drex -> (1/13/2003 1:13:02 AM)

Is there a problem with this? Carrier squadrons can serve on other carriers so why couldn't they serve on their original ship? i am waiting for a carrier to return so I would like to be forewarned if there is a problem re-loading.




Nikademus -> (1/13/2003 4:26:35 AM)

as with many aspects, it depends on the players, and what "rules" they want to put in place when they play. From a "historical" standpoint, the mass transfer of CAG's to landbases was not a normal occurance and was only done when a carrier arrived at port to anchor. Naturally it cant operate aircraft under such circumstances hence the CAG's would transfer to the NAS (Naval air station) located at the same base before the carrier comes into the harbor. After said carrier leaves port the CAG's fly out and meet with the carrier. Note that this is a far cry from say, leaving a carrier in a port and transfering the CAG's only to a different base and operating them from it.

Carrier commanders would frown very heavily on the idea of some theater commander stripping their flattops of CAG's and say, transfering them to a distant or near destant airbase to conduct ops vs having the carrier operate with them.

For the US this was only done at Guadalcanal and only on a limited basis due to the desperate situation there, the shortage of aircraft in the theater and of course battle damage to the carrier in question. But again, the carrier commanders were very leary of this as they suspected, and suspected rightly, that the theater commanders and marine/army types would gleefully take the opportunity to grab a handy source of airpower to use as erstatz land assets for as long as possible. Of course in UV, you have all the power so this isn't an issue :)

The Japanese later did it with their carriers and course payed the price.

So while "possible" from a doctoral standpoint it wouldn't be done, at least to the degree i've experienced it.

I dont object to it either though.......part of wargaming is for players to come up with imaginative new ways to fight, though personally i tend to play 'historically' and restrict my inovativeness to tactics. (getting my a$$ kicked in the process usually :p ) In the end i lump it with the all-fighter carrier TF.....its "possible" in real life, but improbable.

In terms of CAG's among carriers, there is also a difference.

USN Doctorine was designed around CAG's being flexible and interchangable from carrier to carrier, thus if one carrier was damaged or if a CAG got handled roughly, they could be be readily swapped and were.

IJN Doctorine was more rigid. CAG's were assigned to specific carriers and carrier divisions and stayed put, training intensively so that a finer degree of coordination was achieved. There was no mechinism in place for the flexible transfer of whole CAG's between carriers. This had advantages in offensive operations in terms of coordination and cohesion, but if the carrier or CAG got roughly handled , both were essentially out of action till addressed. This was exactly what happened to Shokaku and Zuikaku after Coral Sea.




panda124c -> (1/14/2003 6:19:21 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feinder
[B]
What happened to the airgroups from the Wasp and Hornet when they went down? Where they withdrawn or were they stationed somewhere in theater?
[/URL] [/B][/QUOTE]

"The Cactus Air Force" by: Thomas G. Miller, Jr. ISBN 0-553-14766-8

The following units served on Guadalcanal between August 20 - November 15 were:
VMF-223
VMSB-232
67TH PURSUIT SQUADRON
ENTERPRISE FLIGHT 300 (parts of VS-6 and VB-6)
VMF-224
VMSB-231
VS-3
VF-5
VF-10 (shared from Enterprise)
VB-10 "
VS-10 "
VT-10 "
VT-8
VMSB-141
VS-71
VMF-121
VB-6
VMF-212
VMSB-132
VMF-112
VMSB-131
VMSB-142
This is from the appendix of the above mentioned book.




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