Movement Bug? (Full Version)

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Shazman -> Movement Bug? (7/24/2013 8:33:08 PM)

Per the manual:

- Badlands: Mixed or Motorized movement not allowed; Mountain
units +2, all others x3

Yet when you put badlands in a hex with some other terrain type, say forest or marsh, the movement cost to enter the hex is either 3 x the additional cost or 2 x the total cost. Not sure which.

For example:

A hex with marsh (+2) would normally cost 3 movement points for a 'regular' foot unit to enter, 1 + 2 = 3. Add badlands and it should be (1+2) x 3 = 9. But it's only 6. So the game is either ignoring the basic cost of 1 movement point for the foot unit or it's multiplying the movement cost by 2 instead of 3.

And then there's this. For foot units Hills are +1 and mountains are +2. If you add badlands Hills are 6 But mountains are 6 also. The Hill cost of 6 is correct. ((Hill is +1) + clear 1) x 3 = 6. Mountain should be (2+1) x 3 = 9.

I think it's probably ignoring the basic cost of 1 when there is additional terrain in the hex unless that additional terrain is hill. The reason I say this is because to enter a badlands hex that is placed on clear terrain the cost is 3. 1 (clear movement cost for a foot unit) x 3 = 3. Enter a badlands terrain with hills and it's (1 + 1) x 3 = 6. Both of those are correct. Put anything else in the terrain other than clear or hills and it does not add up properly. The basic cost of 1 is ignored and only the additional cost is multiplied it would seem.

I'm thinking this is a bug. If the movement cost to enter a marsh hex is 3 then if you add badlands it should be 9, not 6.

Just my opinion.



LLv34_Snefens -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 10:12:10 AM)

Playing the devil's advocate I could argue that badlands wouldn't be combined with those types of terrains, by definition of what badlands is.
Like putting badlands in sea hexes and say it's a bug that ships don't pay extra movement cost.

Seriously, I don't think I've seen a scenario that takes place where badlands should actually be present. Maybe for some Spanish or American civil war?

Instead it is used as a movement restrictor for areas where the designer, for some other reasons, wish movement to be particular costly, I've used it as such myself.
In that sense it's nice to know how it calculates the cost (incorrectly).
I would prefer there would be a couple of customizable terrain types the designer could select properties for himself.



Shazman -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 3:05:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LLv34_Snefens

Playing the devil's advocate I could argue that badlands wouldn't be combined with those types of terrains, by definition of what badlands is.
Like putting badlands in sea hexes and say it's a bug that ships don't pay extra movement cost.

Seriously, I don't think I've seen a scenario that takes place where badlands should actually be present. Maybe for some Spanish or American civil war?

Instead it is used as a movement restrictor for areas where the designer, for some other reasons, wish movement to be particular costly, I've used it as such myself.
In that sense it's nice to know how it calculates the cost (incorrectly).
I would prefer there would be a couple of customizable terrain types the designer could select properties for himself.


Right, your first point is what I thought at first. But then it's +2 for mountain and x3 for foot. 3 times what? It wouldn't be 3 times something unless there were other terrain types in the hex. Otherwise, since only mountain and foot are allowed, if only badlands were taken into consideration it would be a plus some number for non mountain foot units.

Yes, it is used for movement restrictions mainly. And rightly so. That's how I first noticed the problem with the math. I wanted to make it extremely difficult to conduct offensive operations north of Lake Ladoga.

Badlands can be part of any terrain. Forested, tundra, grasslands, desert, hills. It's merely very difficult terrain set in an otherwise normal terrain type. Like the karst forests in the Balkans. Mountains are already badlands but it can restrict motorized to roads instead of having them move through mountains when they shouldn't be able to. If the math is screwed up then it kinda takes the edge off badlands.

So, I think the math is messed up. Should be an easy fix but Matrix seems to not care about that when TOAW is concerned.

Just my two cents worth.



LLv34_Snefens -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 4:30:20 PM)

I tried to replicate your results, but can't!
Below is the cost I get for a foot movement, non-mountain, non-special forces unit. Numbers in brackets are for the terrain WITH badlands:

Badlands= 3
Hills= 2 (6)
Mountain= 3 (9)
Mountain+hills= 4 (12)
Light woods= 2 (6)
Forrest= 3 (9)
Forrest+Light Woods= 3 (9)
Hills+Light Woods= 2 (6)
Rocky= 2 (4)
Hills+Light Woods+Rocky= 3 (7)
Hills+Forrest= 3 (9)
Hills+Forrest+Rocky= 4 (10)
Mountain+Hills+Rocky= 5 (13)
Farmland= 2 (3)
Bocage= 3 (3)
Marsh= 3 (9)

Points to note seem to be that Rocky in itself give +1 (manual says +2), but this is applied AFTER the badlands multiplier, and that badlands isn't applied to farmland or bocage cost.
Light woods only have effect if there isn't other terrain in hex.
With those exceptions Badlands give a x3 mulitplier.



r6kunz -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 5:04:02 PM)

very helpful; thanks for running this...
signed
Kunz,



Shazman -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 6:58:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LLv34_Snefens

I tried to replicate your results, but can't!
Below is the cost I get for a foot movement, non-mountain, non-special forces unit. Numbers in brackets are for the terrain WITH badlands:

Badlands= 3
Hills= 2 (6)
Mountain= 3 (9)
Mountain+hills= 4 (12)
Light woods= 2 (6)
Forrest= 3 (9)
Forrest+Light Woods= 3 (9)
Hills+Light Woods= 2 (6)
Rocky= 2 (4)
Hills+Light Woods+Rocky= 3 (7)
Hills+Forrest= 3 (9)
Hills+Forrest+Rocky= 4 (10)
Mountain+Hills+Rocky= 5 (13)
Farmland= 2 (3)
Bocage= 3 (3)
Marsh= 3 (9)

Points to note seem to be that Rocky in itself give +1 (manual says +2), but this is applied AFTER the badlands multiplier, and that badlands isn't applied to farmland or bocage cost.
Light woods only have effect if there isn't other terrain in hex.
With those exceptions Badlands give a x3 mulitplier.


Ah, now I see. The manual is entirely misleading. The x3 used for badlands only applies to specific time scales combined with specific map scales. For instance with half day turns and 10km hexes badlands adds only +3 to infantry movement in mountains. But at half week turns and 10km hexes badlands adds x3 to movement in mountains.

Movement rates are highly variable. But your test is correct if it's done in a narrow band of time and space. Below are the pertinent paragraphs in the Scenario Design portion of the manual and in the portion of the manual concerning movement. I guess if you read only portions of the manual you miss out on the really important stuff, eh? [:D]

But apparently I'm not the only one that just skims.

- Map Scale: Each Map location can be 2.5, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, or

50 kilometers across. This affects game movement and the Map

Size calculation used to determine the number and location of

Weather Zones.



- Turn Length: Turn length

can be six hours, half day, full

day, half week, or full week.

This affects Movement,

Weather progression, and

the availability of day/night

effects.

And in the movement section of the manual:

11.8 Movement Costs and Allowances
In order for a unit to enter a location, it must have sufficient
remaining Movement Allowance. If a unit has not moved or attacked
previously in the Turn, it can always move at least once
into any allowed location
regardless of cost. Unit Movement
Allowances are based on the Supply levels and equipment assigned,
and the Scenario physical and time scales.



LLv34_Snefens -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 9:44:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shazman


Ah, now I see. The manual is entirely misleading. The x3 used for badlands only applies to specific time scales combined with specific map scales. For instance with half day turns and 10km hexes badlands adds only +3 to infantry movement in mountains. But at half week turns and 10km hexes badlands adds x3 to movement in mountains.

Movement rates are highly variable. But your test is correct if it's done in a narrow band of time and space.


Again I can't repeat that. That is, if I make the scenario with those settings (10km/half day), my units only have 5 MP and so it says that the cost for moving into a hill+badlands and mountain+badlands appear to be the same (5).

The 3x multiplier works as long as you select a combination of time and scale that gives enough MP to let it have effect. TOAW has always had the feature that it allows units to move into a hex if it hasn't moved in same turn, even if it has just 1 of 1 MP.

The rest of the part you highlight from the manuanl just hints to the difference in MP with different time and map scales IMO, not movement cost.



r6kunz -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 11:26:58 PM)

Nice work on the details. I learned something...

One of the beauties of TOAW is it is not like chess. An operation commander- i.e. the human player- can have a gestalt of where a unit can move based on the type of unit, its supply, the terrain it is moving over, where the enemy is (ZOC), etc. And send the unit out. It may or may not make it to the destination. Real life.

That is why I am not a great TOAW gamer. I enjoy the historic, military aspects. I just lose a lot of PBEM games, presumable to gamers.

signed
Kunz, HPTM



Shazman -> RE: Movement Bug? (7/25/2013 11:32:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LLv34_Snefens
Again I can't repeat that. That is, if I make the scenario with those settings (10km/half day), my units only have 5 MP and so it says that the cost for moving into a hill+badlands and mountain+badlands appear to be the same (5).

The 3x multiplier works as long as you select a combination of time and scale that gives enough MP to let it have effect. TOAW has always had the feature that it allows units to move into a hex if it hasn't moved in same turn, even if it has just 1 of 1 MP.

The rest of the part you highlight from the manuanl just hints to the difference in MP with different time and map scales IMO, not movement cost.


Ah, I see. I've learned as much about this game by working on a scenario as I have playing it. Thanks. [;)]



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