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Easo79 -> Mistakes... (7/25/2013 2:30:03 PM)

Which are the typical mistakes a beginner makes? Which are those moves that, when made by a player in a team game, prompt his/her allies to make something like....

[image]local://upfiles/45368/76ACB1AE3ABB4066A600979CFFF806F3.jpg[/image]



jelake -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 2:55:34 PM)

As CW, not garrisoning Gibraltar.



Neilster -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 3:45:21 PM)

Italy acting historically [;)]

Cheers, Neilster



brian brian -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 3:54:06 PM)

I Declare War on...



michaelbaldur -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 4:17:47 PM)


losing countless units, on 3 attacks on Lille.

and never taking it ..



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 5:15:58 PM)

Any Allied major power building armor in 1939.



warspite1 -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 5:44:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79

Which are the typical mistakes a beginner makes? Which are those moves that, when made by a player in a team game, prompt his/her allies to make something like....

[image]local://upfiles/45368/76ACB1AE3ABB4066A600979CFFF806F3.jpg[/image]
warspite1

What a brilliant thread [:)]



Centuur -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 5:53:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Any Allied major power building armor in 1939.

Excuse me? I like to buid ARM with the USSR in the second turn of 1939...

Here is another one: sailing TRS without escorts when in range of enemy fleets in the MED.



warspite1 -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 6:29:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Any Allied major power building armor in 1939.

Excuse me? I like to buid ARM with the USSR in the second turn of 1939...

warspite1

...and that's why we love World In Flames. Thousands of possibilities, heaps of different strategies and no sure fire, guaranteed results. Brilliant [&o][:)]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 6:58:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Any Allied major power building armor in 1939.

Excuse me? I like to buid ARM with the USSR in the second turn of 1939...

Here is another one: sailing TRS without escorts when in range of enemy fleets in the MED.

It's better to wait and see if Germany is likely to attack in 1940. There is plenty of time to spend build points on armor in 1940 if Barbarossa isn't coming until 1941.



paulderynck -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 7:33:01 PM)

Had a non-beginner one time who forgot to add the 1941 CW units to his force pool until 1942.



Easo79 -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 8:37:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jelake

As CW, not garrisoning Gibraltar.


Fine!

I am becoming rather serious at learning the game. I have just bought a penbook (paper, old style)...and I have commenced to take notes.

So...please..could you elaborate at this?[8|] One corps as garrison? A division would do the trick?

How it depends on other factors? For instance, one unit at start and afterwards to reinforce it when Germany arrives to the Pyrinees, just in case our beloved Franco let Hitler in?

Is it possible to lose Gibraltar already in turn 1 to a Paradroop Assault? Do I need to prevent that, or it is not possible (-too much distance, transport unavailable??)



michaelbaldur -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 8:49:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79


quote:

ORIGINAL: jelake

As CW, not garrisoning Gibraltar.


Fine!

I am becoming rather serious at learning the game. I have just bought a penbook (paper, old style)...and I have commenced to take notes.

So...please..could you elaborate at this?[8|] One corps as garrison? A division would do the trick?

How it depends on other factors? For instance, one unit at start and afterwards to reinforce it when Germany arrives to the Pyrinees, just in case our beloved Franco let Hitler in?

Is it possible to lose Gibraltar already in turn 1 to a Paradroop Assault? Do I need to prevent that, or it is not possible (-too much distance, transport unavailable??)



more then one unit .. it is to easy to kill 1 unit like 50/50 ..

so you can only get Gibraltar if the CW make a mistake. or in a full attack in the 1940,

an invasion on Gibraltar is more or less a suicide attack early. (a division invasion) .. but with some planning you can get a good attack. but it is a major affair.



peskpesk -> RE: Mistakes... (7/25/2013 9:43:23 PM)

This is lesson (If I remember all correctly) was from our old gaming group:

Japan was thrashing China badly and building up strong force and was to declare war on the US in a turn or two. CW had in response to the early Japanese progress built some extra land units in India/Australia and more important some extra CV/CVLs, fully equipped with pilot and planes. Now he was in a hurry to rebasing them and some of the starting CVs over to the pacific in time to counter the Japanese attack. The route toke them around the Horn of Africa (since the Med was a hornets nest with Italians NAVs and threat against Suez) to Diego Suarez (and at the time was Madagascar was CW controlled) and later the plan was to send them onward to India. The move looked safe (no Japanese AMPHs in range and no DIV units on any ships in range) and the CW player continued with his plan and let his navy return to base Diego Suarez together with some escort ships for a total of 12 ships.

The next turn the Japanese placed a new MAR Div in Tokyo and demanded that the axis moved first this turn. During the declarations of war he DOW not the US, but CW(!) and made the Japanese turn a combined impulse, a quick double transport move of a MAR Div; first to Canton from Tokyo; and then onwards on a new CA( with some more ships with good range) to West Indian ocean and invading a undefended Diego Suarez!

The CW player looked pale, but after remembering the rules (just on a 1 the ship became Japanese and the risk for destruction was 2-4 quit low) he took it like a man. He knew that each ship had 50% chance of staying in CW hands and he could ex loose a CVL to Japan and having two CVs and two CAs destroyed and that would be a very good move from the JP player, but it would not topple his plans. He would still have roughly half the force left to stop the tide of the Japanese, it should be tight but enough. 12 rolls later the CW player only had 1CV and 1CA left to force rebase! The JP player took control of 2CVs and 3CVLs and 1 BB! The rest was destroyed! The CW player was struggling with his self-control, he to a quick side bar with his other allied partners and decide to surrender the game (A bit premature, but I understand why, not fun to play with such a big mistake and bad result grinning in you face).

Lesson:
1) Always guard you naval bases, never let any one step on you navy, especially if the can surprise you or disrupt the ships first. Rough rule of thumb, place a land unit at the navy bases.

Remember:
1) Always check the next turns reinforcements when calculating what the enemy can do in the near future.
2) Don’t take for granted that you will get an average result when calculating the outcome of a battle. You should also be able to handle the worst result.



CrusssDaddy -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 1:48:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79


quote:

ORIGINAL: jelake

As CW, not garrisoning Gibraltar.


Fine!

I am becoming rather serious at learning the game. I have just bought a penbook (paper, old style)...and I have commenced to take notes.

So...please..could you elaborate at this?[8|] One corps as garrison? A division would do the trick?

How it depends on other factors? For instance, one unit at start and afterwards to reinforce it when Germany arrives to the Pyrinees, just in case our beloved Franco let Hitler in?

Is it possible to lose Gibraltar already in turn 1 to a Paradroop Assault? Do I need to prevent that, or it is not possible (-too much distance, transport unavailable??)



Have you looked through the Players' Notes in the Scenario Booklet? Lots of good advice for new players:

http://davecoble.com/WiF/Raw7scenario.pdf



Neilster -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 4:34:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Had a non-beginner one time who forgot to add the 1941 CW units to his force pool until 1942.


I can just imagine the Chiefs of Staff Committee meeting...

"Right, does everyone have tea? A biscuit? Good. Now look here chaps. It appears there's been a bit of a balls-up. We've completely forgotten to tool-up to produce all the new weapons we planned to this year. Additionally, we forgot to send conscription letters to hundreds of thousands of young men all over the Empire.

We've been ruddy busy fighting these blasted Germans and Italians. There's been an awful lot to concentrate on, what with the fall of France, the Battle of the Atlantic, the Battle of Britain and the imminent threat of invasion and it just slipped our minds. Apparently someone in Whitehall sent a memo to someone else but it was left under a manilla folder and understandably forgotten.

It's not ideal, I know, but there's nothing that can be done so we'll just have to soldier on with more of last year's weapons until the situation can be remedied."

Cheers, Neilster



brian brian -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 5:26:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79


quote:

ORIGINAL: jelake

As CW, not garrisoning Gibraltar.


Fine!

I am becoming rather serious at learning the game. I have just bought a penbook (paper, old style)...and I have commenced to take notes.

So...please..could you elaborate at this?[8|] One corps as garrison? A division would do the trick?

How it depends on other factors? For instance, one unit at start and afterwards to reinforce it when Germany arrives to the Pyrinees, just in case our beloved Franco let Hitler in?

Is it possible to lose Gibraltar already in turn 1 to a Paradroop Assault? Do I need to prevent that, or it is not possible (-too much distance, transport unavailable??)



The first Axis paratroop unit can not appear on the map until Mar/Apr 1940 when the Germans receive a 4-3 PARA Corps unit. It would be possible that by that time the Axis had seized French North Africa and an airbase within range of their ATR capabilities for a drop on Gibraltar late in that turn. Good Allied play can prevent this, or at least keep an Axis toe-hold in Oran somewhat threatened on land, with reinforcement from mainland Europe difficult.

Starting on the first turn there is always a risk of amphibious assault. The Italians could conceivably land with 2 ground factors from 3 divisions by breaking down corps units at set-up. This could be doubled to 4 attacking factors with 2 points of Shore Bombardment. There would be no Italian air within range on a surprise invasion, though they could use their surprise impulse to seize Oran, which could base Italian medium bombers to support an invasion in a future impulse.

The CW has an INF corps that will be either 5 or 6 factors, the Royal Engineer division of 2 factors, or 1 of 3 'gun' units (ART/AA/AT) that could be drawn with either 2 or 3 factors, unless alone in a hex, in which case they defend with 1 factor. Gibraltar is a mountain hex and doubled on defense.

A gun alone in Gibraltar on a surprise impulse invasion as described by the Italians would defend against a 2-1 attack, IF the Italians set up to do it, and Italy sets up before the CW. The Engineers alone would face a 1-1 attack. Engineers + Gun would have a defense of 8 or 10 depending on gun, and the Italians would be at 1-2. Against the weakest CW INF corps that could be drawn, the Italians would attack at 4 : 10, a +0.8 on the 2d10 table and need to roll an 18+ on 2 dice, or 17+ on 2 dice and 8 or less on a third dice, to succeed. Most Axis players won't take that high of a gamble, not just because of the low odds of success, but more as a matter of style as opening the game with a wildly unlikely-to-succeed gambit that would have such a major impact on a game is considered in rather poor taste by many gamers.

Depending on your taste for risk and your knowledge of your opponent's style, placing the CW free-to-deploy INF in Gibraltar is generally sufficient to secure the hex for the first few turns. Any second unit added to the defense makes Gibraltar completely secure until the Axis can build Marine units that could potentially arrive starting in Mar/Apr 40 as well. One of the CW Territorial units is ideal as a 2nd corps size unit in Gibraltar until it is more directly threatened by more powerful Axis units driving through Spain, or extensive Axis air/para/marine assets combined with bases in French North Africa. By that time you should use 2 regular front-line CW Corps in the hex and a 2 or 3 factor division sized unit as well. With plenty of help in the local theater as well.

So I generally set up the INF in Gibraltar, and the Royal Engineers and a gun on Malta, with heavily escorted CW lift convoys very soon to deliver more troops to both hexes. How soon depends on German decisions.

Gibraltar is important not just as the most key naval base in the game, but Axis capture of it can allow them to align Spain on their side.



The Allies should rarely quit a game of World in Flames unless US Entry is seriously delayed past the historical entry dates. I have seen the Allies return from losing Gibraltar, and even losing the UK, and beat the Axis in the end.



Joseignacio -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 9:26:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Any Allied major power building armor in 1939.


Depends on who you have in front. In one EWC, intermediate (lest's say beginners, as much as someone can be a beginner at the EWC) it took the german player more than a year to take Paris, by then (guessing what was going to happen) the French built mechs and Arm,and they were pretty useful...



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 6:21:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Any Allied major power building armor in 1939.


Depends on who you have in front. In one EWC, intermediate (lest's say beginners, as much as someone can be a beginner at the EWC) it took the german player more than a year to take Paris, by then (guessing what was going to happen) the French built mechs and Arm,and they were pretty useful...

Since MECHs (5 BPs, 3 turns) are not armor, I wasn't ruling out building them. It's those 6 BPs and 4 turns for armor, planning on a counter-offensive in 1940 that I believe is delusional.

The US should be starting its long term naval builds, China & the USSR building infantry of all types, France shoring up its defensive land units, and the Commonwealth building tons of other stuff that is desperately needed. Only the US should be thinking offensively, and that is for an offense which won't start until 1941 at the earliest.



Easo79 -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 7:55:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79


quote:

ORIGINAL: jelake

As CW, not garrisoning Gibraltar.


Fine!

I am becoming rather serious at learning the game. I have just bought a penbook (paper, old style)...and I have commenced to take notes.

So...please..could you elaborate at this?[8|] One corps as garrison? A division would do the trick?

How it depends on other factors? For instance, one unit at start and afterwards to reinforce it when Germany arrives to the Pyrinees, just in case our beloved Franco let Hitler in?

Is it possible to lose Gibraltar already in turn 1 to a Paradroop Assault? Do I need to prevent that, or it is not possible (-too much distance, transport unavailable??)



Have you looked through the Players' Notes in the Scenario Booklet? Lots of good advice for new players:

http://davecoble.com/WiF/Raw7scenario.pdf



Yes, and I must say that it is being an unvaluable source of information, and a nice reading too.



Easo79 -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 8:13:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Lesson:
1) Always guard you naval bases, never let any one step on you navy, especially if the can surprise you or disrupt the ships first. Rough rule of thumb, place a land unit at the navy bases.

Remember:
1) Always check the next turns reinforcements when calculating what the enemy can do in the near future.
2) Don’t take for granted that you will get an average result when calculating the outcome of a battle. You should also be able to handle the worst result.



Thanks...

Your point 2 is in keeping with some other advices I have read in the campaign booklet. It seems that expert players try to keep their gambling at a a minimun...which I find a realistic approach.

One question about the Diego Suarez affair. Did the other players see what was going to happen? Had everybody a ringing bell inside their heads when the fleet was parked in an undefended base?



Easo79 -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 8:24:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Had a non-beginner one time who forgot to add the 1941 CW units to his force pool until 1942.


Steve, is this made automatically in the computer version? Or is it necessary to click a "New Year Reinforcements" button?

How is it going to work? A bar with all the units available, and the map above? (or below?). How many units are we talking abouut? (5, 15, 70??)



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 8:45:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Easo79


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Had a non-beginner one time who forgot to add the 1941 CW units to his force pool until 1942.


Steve, is this made automatically in the computer version? Or is it necessary to click a "New Year Reinforcements" button?

How is it going to work? A bar with all the units available, and the map above? (or below?). How many units are we talking abouut? (5, 15, 70??)


This is an excerpt from the Players Manual section on Deviations from Rules as Written.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/37904B11145546C1827804D8AEDFB7F6.jpg[/image]



brian brian -> RE: Mistakes... (7/26/2013 11:26:14 PM)

ARM is prime on the defense. Basically an odds level shift for each one in the hex in clear terrain on either table. And other great bonuses in making it that much tougher for the attacker to pick the combat table and possibly deny their blitz bonuses.

I think my favorite build on the first turn is a MECH for the French and an ARM for the Russians. It is hard for the French to build up their INF gearing if they do it, but not impossible. In fact having them start at 1 infantry class unit on the 2nd turn makes it that much easier for them to build an extra anti-tank asset of some sort. Assuming Fall Gelb doesn't start until the Spring.

For the Russians, a 1940 Barbarossa is so rare I don't worry about the risk. And if it were to come to pass, the only unit the Russians have that can stop a panzer spearhead is an ARM unit. Of course, the Russians have to keep their tanks away from the Stukas, but whenever the Panzers outrun the Luftwaffe, they can't beat a Russian ARM unit all that easily.

On the 2nd turn for the Russians, I build ... another ARM unit. And then on the 3rd turn, a 3rd one. J/F 41? You guessed it, their 4th one. To beat tanks you need tanks. Best not wait for your western "allies" to disintegrate early and place those orders for the T-34s right away.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Mistakes... (7/27/2013 12:08:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ARM is prime on the defense. Basically an odds level shift for each one in the hex in clear terrain on either table. And other great bonuses in making it that much tougher for the attacker to pick the combat table and possibly deny their blitz bonuses.

I think my favorite build on the first turn is a MECH for the French and an ARM for the Russians. It is hard for the French to build up their INF gearing if they do it, but not impossible. In fact having them start at 1 infantry class unit on the 2nd turn makes it that much easier for them to build an extra anti-tank asset of some sort. Assuming Fall Gelb doesn't start until the Spring.

For the Russians, a 1940 Barbarossa is so rare I don't worry about the risk. And if it were to come to pass, the only unit the Russians have that can stop a panzer spearhead is an ARM unit. Of course, the Russians have to keep their tanks away from the Stukas, but whenever the Panzers outrun the Luftwaffe, they can't beat a Russian ARM unit all that easily.

On the 2nd turn for the Russians, I build ... another ARM unit. And then on the 3rd turn, a 3rd one. J/F 41? You guessed it, their 4th one. To beat tanks you need tanks. Best not wait for your western "allies" to disintegrate early and place those orders for the T-34s right away.



Since the USSR has 8 build points per turn, you won't be building any infantry then. Maybe 3 garrison?

Since the USSR only has 2 Inf on the map (plus the 3 Siberians), and the reserve units all arrive disorganized, what units would take the losses if the Germans do decide to DOW in early 1940? Or are you intentionally trying to get them to do just that?

The screenshot is from Sept/Oct 1939 - as the USSR is setting up its units.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/49960DE7F78C40BF96144A095C2E90AE.jpg[/image]



michaelbaldur -> RE: Mistakes... (7/27/2013 12:25:04 AM)

i agree with the arm build for the USSR.

it can give a nasty counter attack / offensive on the Germans



brian brian -> RE: Mistakes... (7/27/2013 1:46:14 AM)

yeah, ARM + GARR, 3 turns straight, then the MECH + 2 cheap Infantry class units. then start climbing the mountain of infantry gearing. also, see my next post.

a 1940 Barbarossa will be a low density affair for each side. in theory, I've never seen one and don't expect to. the Russians get a nice amount of Reserves of course, and against a 1940 attack the instant MIL build would be an OK choice. (I don't build a mass pile of them in M/J 41, just some each turn).

In M/J 40, a Russian ARM, MECH, and re-org'd RES MECH would play like 3 strong safeties, preventing the thinner-than-41 German spearheads from taking a hex beyond the range of the Luftwaffe, greatly slowing the speed of the German advance.

Not stopping the advance, just keeping them from taking hexes before their Infantry and Stukas can be brought forward. Hexes such as the critical rail junctions (including clear terrain INF can't hold) to get the factories to Siberia, which is the #1 key in Barbarossa, worth trading units for. An ARM would join the effort in J/A and S/O 40, along with a MECH that turn. That would give me more security than several extra pre-war Russian Infantry armies that the powerful German units will just pulverize anyway whenever they make contact. I think. And the Germans can't operate on as many axes of advance in 1940 as in 1941. If the Germans concentrate forces on one axis, the Russians mass their armor against it and all the factories escape from the ignored axis. If the Germans spread out, the Russian tanks spread out as they won't need to be as concentrated to prevent panzers from advancing freely without infantry.

Really I have the same philosophy for a 1941 Barbarossa. By then the Russians would have 3 ARM & 4 MECH in their defensive secondary, though now operating in stacked pairs. These stacks also give the Russians flexibility to pick off single exposed forward German units, not to make any kind of devastating counterattack or momentum shift; the Germans have too deep of a bench for that to succeed in 1941. Rather, these fast units can swoop on to any easy kill in the front lines (always and only if and iwhen the Luftwaffe is used up / out of range) to get Guards Banner Army points. Those units can stop German spearheads dead in their tank tracks and require a German Army+ (3 stacks) to overcome them, if they choose to stand and fight, which I would not suggest. GBA units on the map in 1940 would be a glorious thing, but the weak pre-war Russian rifle units won't be able to generate one against the powerful pre-war Wehrmacht units. The black-print Russian tank units of either type aren't all that strong either of course, but their built-in die roll modifiers give them increased combat power over just their combat factors.



brian brian -> RE: Mistakes... (7/27/2013 1:55:30 AM)

I thought I posted this yesterday, but my internet service must have burped when I sent it.

The #1 mistake I see and have seen new players Allied to me make, is getting the Russians involved in a land war in Asia before Barbarossa. The #2 mistake is for the western Allies to build for the late game and ignore aid to Russia. A combination of the 2 is not uncommon, and even worse.

World in Flames is so fun because it allows the Axis to forgo operations in the Mediterranean and hurl everything at the Russians. Think what Rommel could have accomplished commanding a Panzer Group in Army Group Center, with several hundred more combat aircraft supporting him. The real Russians barely survived even with the British and Americans sending significant quantities of war materiel all the way to the spring of 1945. WiF also lets the players explore alternative Western decision making of not helping a Major Power not actually friendly to them.



brian brian -> RE: Mistakes... (7/27/2013 2:01:55 AM)

I would think a possible downside to building Russian tanks early would be Pact breaking calculations in 1940. On the minus, several infantry and pilots might well prevent the Germans from breaking the Pact in 1940. On the plus side, Russian tanks can escape from the border zone much better than infantry, and are as economical as INF in Pact breaking math at 3 BP / garrison point, but arrive much more slowly.

But I've never looked too closely at those numbers in 1940. The Germans would have to have significant forces on the French border in 1940 of course, so Pact breaking isn't so simple I think.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Mistakes... (7/27/2013 2:43:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I would think a possible downside to building Russian tanks early would be Pact breaking calculations in 1940. On the minus, several infantry and pilots might well prevent the Germans from breaking the Pact in 1940. On the plus side, Russian tanks can escape from the border zone much better than infantry, and are as economical as INF in Pact breaking math at 3 BP / garrison point, but arrive much more slowly.

But I've never looked too closely at those numbers in 1940. The Germans would have to have significant forces on the French border in 1940 of course, so Pact breaking isn't so simple I think.

German units on the French border have a very short line (5 hexes) to hold behind a river: 4 hexes behind the river, 3 cities, and 4 forest hexes. There are also a couple of German forts to be placed if I remember correctly. It's not the Maginot line, but the French attack combat factors are pretty weak. They also only have 4 hexes from which to attack, with no more than 2 attack hexes on any German hex. I usually defend with the reserves and a pile of garrison units., 6-8 units in all.



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