Any first impressions?? (Full Version)

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wodin -> Any first impressions?? (7/25/2013 10:58:46 PM)

As the title says..any first impressions??

The fact it's a more indepth Panzer Corps has my interest.



Numdydar -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 12:33:47 AM)

Played a few scenerios today and started the AGN campaign.

It is a larger scale PC but with actual Divisions, Regiments, etc. versus what is in PC. Also real maps and terrian are used. So that AGN for example actually has the correct areas they fought over in '41. Riga is in the proper location for example.

I really like the limited unit denisty as I can actually due a turn fairly quickly versus WitE [:)]

There are some simplifications that some may not care for. There are no supply lines like in UoC or WitE. Units use supply to move and fight and when they get low on one or both, they have to stop and refit which takes resources. But you can do that anywhere as long as you did not do anything and are not next to an emeny unit. So you do not have to worry about where you move. This may be different the the Grand Campaign, but this is the way it works with the games I have played so far. So it plays more like a tactical game versus a strategic one since the unit density is so low. There are a total of 20 units for all of AGN, including the AC and the area they have to move around in is pretty big.

The air part of the game seems a liitle light too. The AGN campaign which is the smallest of the campaigns, only has 4 AC for all of AGN, 2 fighters and 2 bombers. Seems a little too few to represent all the AC assigned to AGN. Again not sure how this would be represented in the larger campaigns.

You can buy units and they carry over from each campaign just like PC. You have so many slots again just like PC. I always use the 2d NATO units whenever I play these games so I cannot give an opnion on how the models look.

I hope this is helpful



wodin -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 12:57:17 AM)

Thanks mate. I have no interest in the models;)



Dumnorix -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 11:43:30 AM)

Ok - I take a look at the first screens of this game and here are some of my critic points.

1. The map graphics look very bad - for me this really is not playable, the basic terrain, the houses, the forest - all looks very simple,

2. I dont like the very low poly unit models - all the scale of them to each other is faulty.

3. The menu graphics are not appealing,

I am searching for a game like Panzer general II (PG3D) with 2013 graphical design !

I send you soon an example of my own game !

..I forgot - the scenario list and the scale is again a game with no historical depth background. I like an mix with John Tillers Campaign Series, but in company level, HPS produced scenarios, and a terrain graphic like Panzer Corps, but with much more tile sets and 360° turnable unit graphics with full animations like CIV III.

H.Balck



ComradeP -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 11:50:18 AM)

quote:

The air part of the game seems a liitle light too. The AGN campaign which is the smallest of the campaigns, only has 4 AC for all of AGN, 2 fighters and 2 bombers. Seems a little too few to represent all the AC assigned to AGN. Again not sure how this would be represented in the larger campaigns.


Air units are generally represented at Geschwader-scale, aside from those supporting AGN, which is why there are fewer on the map than in games where they are represented on Gruppe-scale. The air war is, in my opinion, more challenging than in PG or PC as it is more difficult to establish air superiority or air supremacy as losses from air to air combat are often low to average and is it usually impossible to destroy the VVS in the opening turns of a scenario.



Toby42 -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 1:42:51 PM)

Is this IGO/UGO? Or is it continuous play? Or is it like Battle Academy?



ComradeP -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 1:52:07 PM)

IGO-UGO



Erik Rutins -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 3:56:29 PM)

Hi Dumnorix,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dumnorix
Ok - I take a look at the first screens of this game and here are some of my critic points.

1. The map graphics look very bad - for me this really is not playable, the basic terrain, the houses, the forest - all looks very simple,

2. I dont like the very low poly unit models - all the scale of them to each other is faulty.

3. The menu graphics are not appealing,

I am searching for a game like Panzer general II (PG3D) with 2013 graphical design !

I send you soon an example of my own game !

..I forgot - the scenario list and the scale is again a game with no historical depth background. I like an mix with John Tillers Campaign Series, but in company level, HPS produced scenarios, and a terrain graphic like Panzer Corps, but with much more tile sets and 360° turnable unit graphics with full animations like CIV III.


This is all based on looking at the screenshots? It certainly sounds like this is not the game for you - if you are looking for a new Campaign Series at company level, that really has nothing to do with this game. If you do enjoy Panzer General, I think you would enjoy this one if you gave it a chance, but I'm guessing from your post that will not happen. That's fine, every game is not for every gamer, but I can say from playing and working on this one, it's a good game.

Usually first impressions threads are more oriented towards asking folks who are playing the game to post their experiences.

Regards,

- Erik




lparkh -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 6:10:40 PM)

The poster in question has very strong opinions about graphical issues and tend to post on that topic quite a bit. He is doing his own 3D graphical work which he posts as well. Can't remember if it is for PC or not.



Tzar007 -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 7:16:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

There are some simplifications that some may not care for. There are no supply lines like in UoC or WitE. Units use supply to move and fight and when they get low on one or both, they have to stop and refit which takes resources. But you can do that anywhere as long as you did not do anything and are not next to an emeny unit. So you do not have to worry about where you move.


Does that mean that if you have units trapped behind enemy lines they will still be able to get resupply simply by not having them adjacent to an enemy unit and not moving? If that is so, it means encircled units can still get full resupply?



PKH -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 7:54:59 PM)

quote:

Does that mean that if you have units trapped behind enemy lines they will still be able to get resupply simply by not having them adjacent to an enemy unit and not moving? If that is so, it means encircled units can still get full resupply?


There are various effects based on how many neighboring enemy units there are. When fully surrounded you can't resupply at all I believe.

I've only played a couple of scenarios and tried a bit of the campaigns. The game plays fine, and offers enough variation to Panzer Corps for me. I feel the aircraft could use a good deal more range though. At the moment, they barely move farther than a tank in one round.

I have to agree with the earlier post about the map graphics. They are very primitive, and the different terrain types could stand out a bit more. This is something I think the developers need to spend some time on if they want to reach a broader public.



Ronald Wendt -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 7:56:08 PM)

Hello,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

Does that mean that if you have units trapped behind enemy lines they will still be able to get resupply simply by not having them adjacent to an enemy unit and not moving? If that is so, it means encircled units can still get full resupply?



yes currently only contact with enemies limits/cancels the possibility of supplying units.

Regards,



stormbringer3 -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 8:02:45 PM)

Is there a possibility that this will change, possibly as an option, to increase realism?
Thanks.



Ronald Wendt -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 8:32:19 PM)

Hello,

yes, there is a possibilty for a change in this and added as a new rule. It was discussed during development but postponed due to lack of time as there is much more to it than just adding the rule.

Regards,



stormbringer3 -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 8:58:49 PM)

I'm sure that the scenarios in the Campaign Game will have different turn lengths. What would be a guess on the average scenario number of turns? I saw that the Campaign has 37 scenarios so I'm trying to get a feel on how long the Campaign Game will be. I'm lucky enough to be retired so I can spend many hours a day PC gaming.
Thank you.



Ronald Wendt -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 9:36:18 PM)

Hello,

quote:

ORIGINAL: stormbringer3

I'm sure that the scenarios in the Campaign Game will have different turn lengths. What would be a guess on the average scenario number of turns? I saw that the Campaign has 37 scenarios so I'm trying to get a feel on how long the Campaign Game will be. I'm lucky enough to be retired so I can spend many hours a day PC gaming.
Thank you.


this really just a guess but the average should be about 14-15 turns. If you play a campaign you do not see all 37 maps though. Your performance and decisions influence which maps you will see and which not. E.g. if you choose AGN and perform well you get the opportunity to capture Leningrad - if you do not the choice won't appear.
After Smolensk you decide which army group should be the main axis and maps of the other two will be "solved" in 1942 so you won't have to fight all of them.
This way there is always something left to explore after a few games with the A-A campaign.

Regards,



stormbringer3 -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 9:39:08 PM)

Thanks for your answer. I've decided to buy the game!



Ronald Wendt -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 9:57:36 PM)

Hello,

quote:

ORIGINAL: stormbringer3

Thanks for your answer. I've decided to buy the game!


you always welcome. [:)]

Regards,



Westheim -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/26/2013 11:43:36 PM)

Got the game; really makes me remember old Panzer General (never got myself Panzer Corps), but with a few differences. The maps seem so much larger, battles feel less generic.

Graphics are low key, which is not a bad thing, I'll happily take great gameplay over great graphics any day. Still, it seems quite demanding on my laptop, and I find that scrolling is quite rough, to be honest. Might be just my cheap machine, though.

The AI doesn't seem too stupid, they managed to counter attack my miserable flanks in the first scenario of the AG North mini campaign quite nicely.

Looks very promising here.



Numdydar -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/27/2013 2:59:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

There are some simplifications that some may not care for. There are no supply lines like in UoC or WitE. Units use supply to move and fight and when they get low on one or both, they have to stop and refit which takes resources. But you can do that anywhere as long as you did not do anything and are not next to an emeny unit. So you do not have to worry about where you move.


Does that mean that if you have units trapped behind enemy lines they will still be able to get resupply simply by not having them adjacent to an enemy unit and not moving? If that is so, it means encircled units can still get full resupply?


You can be on the other side of the map from where your main supply areas should be and as noted above, you are not next to enemy units, your unit could get fully supplied and get full replacements [X(]. For example I easily ran a unit up to Riga in the AGN campaign and resupplied it along the way. Even when I was hexes away from any road.

Since the unit density is so low (too low imho) it is very easy to slip units through the front lines and run amuck behind the lines will no ill effect. Which kind of ruins the game for me so I really hope something is done to address this.

Personally I would love rail lines to be on the map and had to be repaired as in WitE. It just seems wrong to be playing on Eastern Front maps that have no railroads. Especially how critical they were in real life.

While I do like the low unit density, I think it is way too low and should be at least 50% higher than it is currently. So maybe that can be addressed as well.



Tzar007 -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/27/2013 1:28:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

You can be on the other side of the map from where your main supply areas should be and as noted above, you are not next to enemy units, your unit could get fully supplied and get full replacements [X(]. For example I easily ran a unit up to Riga in the AGN campaign and resupplied it along the way. Even when I was hexes away from any road.

Since the unit density is so low (too low imho) it is very easy to slip units through the front lines and run amuck behind the lines will no ill effect. Which kind of ruins the game for me so I really hope something is done to address this.

Personally I would love rail lines to be on the map and had to be repaired as in WitE. It just seems wrong to be playing on Eastern Front maps that have no railroads. Especially how critical they were in real life.

While I do like the low unit density, I think it is way too low and should be at least 50% higher than it is currently. So maybe that can be addressed as well.


Thanks for the feedback. Although I would not expect a sophisticated supply system in a game of that scope, I would still expect something a little better than that. Even in Panzer Corps with all its simplicity, you will not be able to reinforce or resupply your units if you are behind enemy lines, you've got to have some kind of line of communication.



ComradeP -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/27/2013 2:37:06 PM)

What units should fill up the map? There often were just a handful of units behind the frontline. If you create a game at a divisional scale, the result is that there are fewer units on the map than on a closer to tactical scale. In WitE, the Soviets in 1941 also do not have nearly the kind of reserves they can muster in mid/late 1942 and beyond. It might seem like the unit density is high, but that might be due to the size of the map and HQ's and air bases being on-map units. Remove those, and the area behind the frontline is often empty.

When you get units behind enemy lines in GaW, in most cases you would've made a breakthrough and there would as such be a supply line. Although I can agree that it might look odd, situations where one of your units is driving around behind the frontline without any kind of connection to the rest of your units should be rare.

In most games, a line of supply or communication is a highly abstracted concept in any case (often just a number based on a calculation from how far a unit is from a supply unit or supply source).

Could it be more detailed? Certainly. Is the current supply system unusual for wargames of this complexity? No.



colberki -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/27/2013 2:56:27 PM)

Bought the game; played the first scenario on Hard. Great game. The unit promotions allow a lot of nice decisions around unit traits.

One question - I was wondering if it would make for a better game as if the Soviets were not given 50 bonus experience points to all units but in turn, the Advanced Supply rule is invoked. Would this rule affect the Axis only or both sides?



Numdydar -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/27/2013 4:25:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

What units should fill up the map? There often were just a handful of units behind the frontline. If you create a game at a divisional scale, the result is that there are fewer units on the map than on a closer to tactical scale. In WitE, the Soviets in 1941 also do not have nearly the kind of reserves they can muster in mid/late 1942 and beyond. It might seem like the unit density is high, but that might be due to the size of the map and HQ's and air bases being on-map units. Remove those, and the area behind the frontline is often empty.

When you get units behind enemy lines in GaW, in most cases you would've made a breakthrough and there would as such be a supply line. Although I can agree that it might look odd, situations where one of your units is driving around behind the frontline without any kind of connection to the rest of your units should be rare.

In most games, a line of supply or communication is a highly abstracted concept in any case (often just a number based on a calculation from how far a unit is from a supply unit or supply source).

Could it be more detailed? Certainly. Is the current supply system unusual for wargames of this complexity? No.


Please remember I did buy the game [:)].

The following screenshots may help. One is from WitE Road to Lennigrad while the other is from the GaW AGN campaign. Both games are covering the same exact area, abet WitE's scale is twice as big so I would expect units in GaW to be more spread out. However, it seems that there should be at lot more units involved on both sides in GaW that what is currently in the AGN scenario.

Also as the map scale decreases, the unit density should increase accordingly as you will be modeling smaller scale units like Brigades/Regiments versus Divisions/Corps. So with GaW's scale being half the size of WitE's, it seems like there should be more units, not less.



[image]local://upfiles/10981/0EE472D2B11341AB876EF94B7F5470EB.jpg[/image]



Numdydar -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/27/2013 4:28:16 PM)

Here is the WitE screenshot


[image]local://upfiles/10981/FFC8FB4988684605BEFE1D6DB7AD8324.jpg[/image]



Ronald Wendt -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/27/2013 5:02:51 PM)

Hello,


if both games depict divisions, and one has twice the hexes per area (GaW), units would be spread wider and be less dense. Even though we have smaller units in it, they usually are army/army group units that support a certain offense which were limited in numbers.

Regards,



vonGekko -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/28/2013 4:21:45 AM)

I've played the game for about 12 hours and I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I play with the chit icons and I am happy with the graphics. I really like the unit experience progression and the enhancements you can choose to customize your units. I also like the interesting messages that pop up when you capture certain points.

I find that the smaller units (engineers, recon, anti-tank) are a fragile enough that you have to be very careful or they'll be wiped out. Consequently, while I have many experienced infantry and armor divisions, my smaller units don't seem to progress very much.

Great game!



Numdydar -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/28/2013 5:01:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronald Wendt

Hello,


if both games depict divisions, and one has twice the hexes per area (GaW), units would be spread wider and be less dense. Even though we have smaller units in it, they usually are army/army group units that support a certain offense which were limited in numbers.

Regards,


I do not have an issue with the units being more spread out as I expect that if the unit scale (Divisional) stays the same. However, the way the AGN is setup, the Germans do not really need to attack a single Russian unit on the front line, unlike WitE. They can just bypass the entire Russian line and ignore them completely by moving though the spaces and gaps in the Russian line. Since supplies can be gotten anywhere, there is no downside to doing this.

As long as you protect the VP hexes you own and capture the Russian ones, you will win. Since the unit density is such that there are plenty of holes in the Russian line to move through, there is nothing the Russian player or AI can do to stop this tactic. So feel free to zoom off to Riga and Kranus and ignore everything else [:)]

I can't be the only person that sees an issue with this.



lparkh -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/28/2013 5:14:51 AM)

As a prospective buyer this is disconcerting. Can one really win this way?



Ronald Wendt -> RE: Any first impressions?? (7/28/2013 2:53:19 PM)

Hello,

maps have objectives, if you achieve them you win.
Many battles in the A-A campaign are aimed rather at key points than direct confrontiation.
But this becomes harder to achieve as the campaign progresses.

Now what happens e.g. in WiTE ? Do you attack every unit in every turn ? I do not. Especially at the beginning its better to pierce the flanks and encircle units.
Later in the war you get into the fronline situation were its harder to breakthrough and form cauldrons.

In other missions of GaW you have to destruct certain amounts of strength points or specific units, secure & repair bridges etc. at the mentioned RIga map, its certain towns. So to come to an end, yes in that map you can win by driving by the Soviets and get to the key cities.

What could be done is to add a mob up phase to such a scenario to add the feel of having overwhelmed the enemy.


Regards,




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