Resource management bug (Full Version)

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mSterian -> Resource management bug (8/26/2013 9:48:20 PM)

I've seen people around the forum complain due to stalled constructions.
Those aren't major bugs. They mostly run into that due to insufficient freighters or resources while they build too many things at the same time.

The bug I am reporting is that sometimes my resources go into the "minus"
That's right. Current stock = -3.2k for example

At this point, the game stops knowing the need for that resource and stops imporing it. And if I don't have some minig stations minig that resource or my mining ships are stupidly mining something else, I'm stuck not being able to do anything.

This mostly happens while playing as a pirate. Think it happens either when a constructions is sabotaged by intelligence agents or when retrofitting a lot of ships at once. Those are 2 things that I noticed happening at the time this bug occured.



ReadeB -> RE: Resource management bug (8/27/2013 6:04:25 PM)

I've seen this as well. I upgraded my mining stations and suddenly they have resource shortages.

I looked and found a supply of the needed resource on a space port, but it has a negative rsvd number listed. Been waiting a long time and no one has picked them up.

Could we get a way to at least view all the freighter missions and existing requests? or maybe get a detailed eta at the site of the resource shortage? The ETA would highlight the freighter-in-route and a countdown.



mSterian -> RE: Resource management bug (8/27/2013 9:16:58 PM)

Great idea.

Display if a freighter is assigned or not to pick up the reserved resources, and if so, somehow show the freighter coming to pick up, or at least show a distance left until it reaches the destination.

But I think the best this will offer is peace of mind.
If there is in fact a freighter coming, you'll be patient for it to get there.
If not, then, well, you'll notice it's a bug and start another game.. and maybe the devs fix it in the mean time also.

Anyway, what also needs fixing is the freighters' priorities. I've had so many games where I couldn't build more freighters due to resource shortages, and the few freighters I had were transporting useless goods that did not help me at all. Like, getting caslon from a mine. Caslon that I already had thousands in stock.

PLEASE, for god's sake, set freighter priority to fulfill demands where construction is stalled.



Starke -> RE: Resource management bug (8/27/2013 11:53:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mSterian
PLEASE, for god's sake, set freighter priority to fulfill demands where construction is stalled.

This, times a million. It would remove a huge PITA that I run into virtually every game.

Ex. in my current game as a pirate, it brought enough materials to build the entire 1k+ size space port... except for a few scraps of silicon to finish the Command Center! >.< It had to fly all the way back to my original space port and then return, eating up constructor-time, which is worth its weight Loros Fruit in pirate games. =P



dostillevi -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 12:44:41 AM)

Can't start up a space station without all the trimmings! Just wouldn't be proper. Commander needs a comfortable chair and all that.

I think there are several issues here:

-Noting when a stalled construction order is being fulfilled.
I'm not sure how this helps.. there isn't much you can do if it isn't being fulfilled.

-Addressing negative resource amounts
This might be an actual bug.

-Multi-destination optimization of freighter routes/cargo
This is a tricky problem and may not be solvable given the calculation cost needed for an efficient solution, but perhaps it would be possible for a freighter, when it is deciding to bring a resource to a destination, check to see if there are other needed resources and if there are, and see if there are supplies along the way that could be grabbed with a quick detour. At the very least it should check to see if there is a pickup location that meets multiple needs and should prioritize scarce resource delivery over everything else. Calculating an efficient multi-destination route is of course a pretty intensive task, especially with multiple freighters doing somewhat redundant calculations. Nearest neighbor is probably the best option and the search would really only need to go one node out. Alternately, each resource hold could basically advertise what resources it has, and any construction process in need of resources would determine which sources are the closest. Freighters would then merely query the construction site and it would tell them what to pick up and where. Of course you already have some system in place, so it really depends on how well that could be integrated into a slightly more complex model.

My solution to the problem as explained is to optimize my freighters for different speeds/distances. I make the small freighter very fast with a long range and a smaller hold. This ship is meant to have a quick turnaround time so it is always quickly fulfilling smaller needs and moving on to the next, and it is also able to reach out to more distant outposts and other empires. The medium freighter is the general purpose freighter, nothing special here, but it tends to be the slowest sub-warp freighter and should have the range to reach nearby empires. The large freighter has a very limited range and huge capacity, while also being quick. By limiting it's range, it won't go off into the wilderness to supply some random outpost with 10 silicon, and will instead stay close to my core worlds transporting large amounts of core resources.



mSterian -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 1:09:05 AM)

God... Dostilevi. You're complicating things so much.
What you are suggesting is WAY beyond what we DW fans could ever hope.

For now, we'd be satisfied with the simple prioritizing of resources.

Simple logic the freighter has to do:

1.What is the nearest stalled construction?
Oh. Space Port X.
2.Due to what resources is the construction stalled at the moment?
Hmm... Chormium, Carbon Fiber and Aculon?
3.Where is the closest location from Space Port X where I can pick up some of those resources from?
Oh, colony Y. So far so good
4.Get off your lazy ass and go to Colony Y, pick up some of those needed resources for SP X and deliver them!!!
Yes sir.


I'm not asking for route calculations and crazy complicated stuff. I'm not even asking to ship the EXACT ammount of resources. Just ship something to get that construction going ffs :)
Just see where resources are needed NOW... and pick the closest location to get that resource from.

EDIT: Of course, this is for cases where you're left with a low quantity of freghters and each one of them counts. I've seen that in games where I have all the freighters I need such things don't really happen. So.. you could implement this logic just when stalled constructions occur as a fail safe solution.



Trev_lite -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 2:55:08 AM)

the player should be able to give contracts to the private sector to move resources like you can do with pirates. costs more but gets the job faster.
another idea is to have a small fleet of private transports (for building spaceports and stuff) that wouldn't do the job automatically like the private sector but could be micromanaged to prevent stalling.



mSterian -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 5:57:24 AM)

You guys are all complicating things. I think my suggestion would be the easiest to implement and the most effective.



Canute0 -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 7:07:34 AM)

It would be the best when the Player got some Cargo managment options.
Like the military ship are now able to mine (that didn't happen before Shadows).
Military ships should be able to load/unload cargo on a players control, but the AI never should use this for military ships at their own.

At this way the Resupply ship can load fuel gas too and can deploy anywhere to refuel ships and don't need it to mine before. And the Resupply ship can unload some other gas they mined together with the fuel gas.



mSterian -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 7:41:58 AM)

Well, I've just started playing FULL manual mode. And believe me, it's overwhelming. Designing ships alone takes forever. Optimizing everything in the design. Having at least the private sector automated is the best way. Of course, it would be nice to have an OPTION to gain manual control. But the private sector SHOULD work well automated also.

Think about it this way. The problem YOU are having, the enemy AI is having as well when playing against them.
Is that the kind of AI you want to play against? AI that can't get s**t build due to the private sector? Think about it.



Canute0 -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 10:43:57 AM)

quote:

But the private sector SHOULD work well automated also

Oh it worked, but not that well. But since the AI empires encounter the same it is just right that the player got the same problems.


About Ship designs, special the private sector ones. You don't need to upgrade them after each research. I do this when i got 2-3 major improvements. Like when i got new hyperdrive + engines + reactor. That goes pretty fast, click on autoupgrade design and just check if the AI took the right modules ( mosttimes when you want to use racial tech instead normal tech).
It take much more time to design a new Military ship with improved size and some new modules.



Icemania -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 11:16:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mSterian
God... Dostilevi. You're complicating things so much.

What you are suggesting is WAY beyond what we DW fans could ever hope.

For now, we'd be satisfied with the simple prioritizing of resources.

Simple logic the freighter has to do:

1.What is the nearest stalled construction?
Oh. Space Port X.
2.Due to what resources is the construction stalled at the moment?
Hmm... Chormium, Carbon Fiber and Aculon?
3.Where is the closest location from Space Port X where I can pick up some of those resources from?
Oh, colony Y. So far so good
4.Get off your lazy ass and go to Colony Y, pick up some of those needed resources for SP X and deliver them!!!
Yes sir.

I'm not asking for route calculations and crazy complicated stuff. I'm not even asking to ship the EXACT ammount of resources. Just ship something to get that construction going ffs :)
Just see where resources are needed NOW... and pick the closest location to get that resource from.

EDIT: Of course, this is for cases where you're left with a low quantity of freghters and each one of them counts. I've seen that in games where I have all the freighters I need such things don't really happen. So.. you could implement this logic just when stalled constructions occur as a fail safe solution.

What you suggest should be implemented via patch. However, what Dostilevi suggested should not be dismissed, I feel this should be part of the next Expansion i.e. modification support as announced plus major improvements to existing features. Unfortunately per the SpaceSector interview thread it appears Matrix want to make the private sector more complicated rather than focusing on improving what we have now.



Icemania -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 11:19:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mSterian
Well, I've just started playing FULL manual mode. And believe me, it's overwhelming. Designing ships alone takes forever. Optimizing everything in the design.

I keep design save files for the start of the game then a couple of save files after that as I have fairly standard research order for the early game. After that's it's manual but since the hard work is setting that initial optimisation it becomes pretty straight forward.




mSterian -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 11:59:26 AM)

Well, Every time I unlock a new component, I need to change my design. I could do a design save of all the bases and ships after each component unlock... but that's a bit of work too. And it may not be the best in all situations.
I'm also in the process of learning ship design so.. my designs aren't perfect yet.



Icemania -> RE: Resource management bug (8/28/2013 12:39:22 PM)

I only keep 3 save files (the last one is for Size 300 / Hyperdrive). I don't mind changing the designs after that. To me this strikes the balance but I can understand those that might not enjoy this. The saves files capture improvement in your designs so they definitely support the ship design learning curve.



btd64 -> RE: Resource management bug (8/31/2013 5:00:38 AM)

one thing I do is when I select a colony site I visit the surrounding systems a setup locations ahead of times for the resources I will need and build a few construction ships. I do it in small groups, 2 or so new colonies at a time. I don't start anything new until the current bases are built. I still sometimes get the shortage message but only one or two items. the shortage problem only seems to get large when I go to 4 or more new colonies before the old ones are finished building the bases I ordered. I scale up the military units slowly too. After 20 game years I have between 12 to 16 colonies and very few shortages except for some mining stations, monitoring stations, etc. Hope someone tries this slower approach and it works for them too.[:)].
Cheers [sm=00000436.gif]
PS its a speed thing I think.[;)]

Also if you have a large number of freighters in the late game 6 or more colonies at a time should not be a problem.



ReadeB -> RE: Resource management bug (8/31/2013 2:13:31 PM)

I think a major issue is that the resource shortages don't seem to fix themselves when you slow down.

It just results in a bunch of idle freighters with others moving caslon or luxuries.

Space ports seem to be prioritized while other locations get forgotten permanently.



btd64 -> RE: Resource management bug (8/31/2013 3:23:57 PM)

ReadeB, My experences have shown that expanding at a slower rate does help. I rarely have any freighters siting around. Give it a try. It might work for you. I do build as many mining stations in the beginning as I can before I start adding colonies.
Cheers [sm=00000436.gif]



ReadeB -> RE: Resource management bug (9/3/2013 2:18:26 PM)

Thanks. Trying that now. I found that watching the numbers of ships/bases using obsolete designs can help keep the pace right.

Also, I noticed that some strategic resources get exhausted quickly and I'm learning to build mining stations more selectively.

Just wish I could micromanage some of the resource issues to accelerate construction or prestage resources where I'll need them soon.



btd64 -> RE: Resource management bug (9/4/2013 2:34:40 PM)

ReadeB, What I will do is select the planets that have what I need and build mine/gas mine as necessary to exceed demand. then I start colonizing to incease cash flow. seems to work well for me. Just like building a house, Buy the materials you need to start, then buy materials as you go. simple[8D]
cheers[sm=00000436.gif]



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