Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (Full Version)

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nedcorleone1 -> Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 7:09:58 PM)

So, as far as I know, WiF has limits on who you can declare war on. A version of the WiF rulebook I found online specifically says the following:

You can’t declare war on
• any major powers or minor countries on your side

Well why not? If I'm playing the Germans, eventually I'm going to want to declare war on Italy and take them over. Same with Japan. If the moon were built into the game, I'd declare war on that too.


These are the words of my father who loves wargaming and has always asked this question and said these (types) things. I was hoping to find it in WiF but apparently not. Why are DoWs always so limited?

Thanks in advance for any input.



warspite1 -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 7:24:31 PM)

One of the (many) great things about World In Flames (WIF) is the range of choices that each player has i.e. he/she is not forced to re-fight WWII as it happened, but can explore whole manner of other options. However, these options are restricted by a small number of rules that give WIF an historic framework within which to game the war.

Each to their own I guess, but for me, this feature helps make the game what it is (Brilliant) rather than being a negative.



obermeister -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 7:48:33 PM)

While the computer version of WiF does not allow this - if you play DoD3 added to WiF, and then play with the "Wild" option, I believe you can go into a different ideology than Italy and then declare war on her.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 7:55:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

So, as far as I know, WiF has limits on who you can declare war on. A version of the WiF rulebook I found online specifically says the following:

You can’t declare war on
• any major powers or minor countries on your side

Well why not? If I'm playing the Germans, eventually I'm going to want to declare war on Italy and take them over. Same with Japan. If the moon were built into the game, I'd declare war on that too.


These are the words of my father who loves wargaming and has always asked this question and said these (types) things. I was hoping to find it in WiF but apparently not. Why are DoWs always so limited?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Historically, when Hitler became disillusioned with the Italians, he sent a lot of German divisions into Italy (and the Balkans) specifically so that when Italy surrendered the Germans could disarm the Italian units and Germany would have absolute control. Which is what happened.

That's what happens in WIF - if Germany behaves as Hitler did. There is no need to DOW and attack the Italian units. As long as they are on the Axis side, fighting the Allies, why would you (Germany) want to DOW Italy?

There is also the question of what is Italy's relationship with the Allies if when they are at war with the Allies, Germany DOW's Italy? Does Italy fight everyone?



nedcorleone1 -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 8:03:25 PM)

Thanks for the responses so far.

There are plenty of what-ifs and possibilities that could be discussed regarding declaring war on members of your alliance. However, no matter how you slice it, DoW shouldn't have to be limited like this. I mean, alliances/pacts/non-aggro agreements are all fluid things (e.g. Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Is there an option to not have (if you were playing the Germans for example) Italy apart of your alliance? If not, then you are forced into a position where you can absolutely not declare war once an alliance has been made. It just seems odd to me that DoWs are always built-in to grand strategy games which severely hinders your mid-late game strategy, especially for those who want to dominate the world.

Anyhow, I'm just making a case (again) for my father who has always had this grievance with the WW2 gaming paradigm. I think he brings up a great point though.



Mike Parker -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 9:01:25 PM)

Part I am sure is to make a reasonably fair experience for everyone. I remember reading about a tournament game of 3rd Reich where the person who drew France was quite upset and colluded with the Axis players to "lay back and take it" in exchange for survival long enough to get a good victory result (and hence move on to later rounds).

Its all well and good to cry 'Uber Alles' as Germany and DOW Italy but honestly its plain silly and would occur as a serious option in maybe 1 game in 10,000 but how would you feel as a German player if the Italian player took a lesson from the Great War and DOW'd you in 1939? The various HOI games are good for such what ifs but not good for a game like this I would have to say... although I have been wrong before!



nedcorleone1 -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 9:22:37 PM)

Mike:

Its like this. Say you were playing the US (I'll switch it up just for kicks). You play the game and beat Germany. Why on earth should a player have to stop moving East just because, heaven forbid, the USSR is an ally and cannot be declared war upon? I mean you're there with the troops, you've made it this far. It would seem like a very gratifying reward to keep playing. Maybe your strategy is to keep Japan at bay and take them from mainland Asia via Russia, or through SE Asia.

Consider playing the Germans. You knock out the USSR. But why do you have to stop moving east? You could be in a position to walk your army to the coast and take out Japan.

Maybe DOW unlocks could be built in after the 'historical framework' was achieved, opening the end-game up to a phenomenal amount of possibilities. Does any of this make sense at all?



paulderynck -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 10:20:26 PM)

Yes, keep going east and DoW the U.S. West Coast.



composer99 -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/3/2013 10:32:39 PM)

As noted above, the tabletop boardgame version of WiF has a stand-alone expansion (which can also be played using the WiF military system) called Days of Decision which allows these sorts of situations, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the optional rules you use.

Unfortunately DoD is not part of Matrix Games' implementation of WiF. But it is out there.



Neilster -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/4/2013 2:04:55 AM)

The game basically starts on September 1st 1939 with the German declaration of war on Poland. Of course that is slightly ahistorical because Germany invaded Poland before declaring war and in the game, although the Germans are automatically at war with Poland, they don't actually have to invade it. Anyway, the political situation is as it was on that date, so Italy is Germany's ally.

Cardboard WiF has an expansion that encompasses a Western Allies vs Soviet Union conflict and that may eventually be added to MWiF....along with a replay feature with DVD style controls and a spherical global map. Whoops! Did I type that out loud? [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster



brian brian -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/5/2013 4:16:32 AM)

There is also the expansion gamette "Patton In Flames" with which a group can play a 3-sided game, 1936-1950, of Fascists vs. Communists vs. Democracies.

It is always worth noting that World in Flames is a fully functioning wargame that can be purchased and played and even played over the Internet already, whenever you wish. Tomorrow, even.

When you own a copy of World in Flames, you can have the counters do whatever you want them to ... Britain could invade France, the USA could take on Mexico, Japan can invade Saudi Arabia, you name it. Their your counters.

But when you use the game for alternative history explorations, it is up to you to decide who wins or loses a user created scenario, the rules aren't set up for that.



Neilster -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/5/2013 4:54:48 AM)

Actually, I was referring to Patton in Flames but I wasn't aware of its details. I assumed it was a post WW2 thing.

I think once or twice we played WiF with a house rule that Germany could invade France on the first impulse. We reasoned that Hitler might use war against Poland as a trigger for a France first strategy, hoping to take it (and possibly the partially or just arrived BEF) in the Autumn of 1939. If successful, this can pose potentially nasty strategic questions for the Commonwealth. Britain is vulnerable, the Mediterranean offers all sorts of opportunities and after crushing Poland a 1940 Barbarossa is in prospect.

Still, as you said, that was only with cardboard WiF. France first will still be possible in MWiF, but as I understand it, not on the first impulse.

Cheers, Neilster



Easo79 -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/5/2013 1:15:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

So, as far as I know, WiF has limits on who you can declare war on. A version of the WiF rulebook I found online specifically says the following:

You can’t declare war on
• any major powers or minor countries on your side

Well why not? If I'm playing the Germans, eventually I'm going to want to declare war on Italy and take them over. Same with Japan. If the moon were built into the game, I'd declare war on that too.


These are the words of my father who loves wargaming and has always asked this question and said these (types) things. I was hoping to find it in WiF but apparently not. Why are DoWs always so limited?

Thanks in advance for any input.


Mmmmmm.....that is the "RISK" mentality! Conquer the world! I love it...but since my arrival here my desires to rule the planet have been somewhat tamed to accomodate the realities of WWII.

Now I am made to the idea than for a game beginning in 1939 (in contrast with 1934) the Alliance between Germany and Italy has to be rather difficult to break (3 years together bombing Republican Spaniards have to create some fraternal links...). Same for CW and USA. Perhaps, from a September 1st 1939 perspective, the most unlikely alliance is the one between CW and the Soviet Union (but even when UK decided to give Poland some guarantees before the war outbreak, the treaty was very carefully worded by the Foreign Office to exclude a Soviet attack against Poland being considered as a casus belli)



Terminus -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/5/2013 1:28:17 PM)

I'm getting a mental image of George C. Scott running around on the set of "Patton", flapping his arms and shrieking "I'M BURNING, I'M BURNING!!!"



wworld7 -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/6/2013 2:12:23 AM)

LOL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'm getting a mental image of George C. Scott running around on the set of "Patton", flapping his arms and shrieking "I'M BURNING, I'M BURNING!!!"




rowan8915 -> RE: Declaring War (or "How I want to dominate the world") (9/16/2013 10:21:47 PM)

test



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