1D10 versus 2D10 (Full Version)

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Numdydar -> 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 8:14:46 PM)

Can someone please explain why one should be used over the other?



obermeister -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 8:21:25 PM)

If you play all the add-in units like artillery and divisions, 2D10 is better. 1D10 otherwise is really easy on the attacker, who always brings some junk divisions to sacrifice as losses. I think there is something of a consensus among super-deluxe players around 2D10



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 8:35:17 PM)

2D10 is more "realistic". You get bonuses for things like massing your armor, it makes groundstrikes more powerful compared to 1D10, and the advent of an attacker result for half the units flipping means that offensives tend to peter out gradually. It's also considerably bloodier than 1D10. Terrain bonuses are more important, and raw power slightly less so.

Furthermore, it's far more deterministic. 1D10 gives you a 10% chance to crack Paris with 3 guys guarding it on a 3:2 attack, and a 10% chance for a 6:1 blitz to fall on its face with a attacker's loss and everyone flipping. 2D10, since two rolls will tend towards the mean, is much more deterministic, much more predictable.


This isn't a popular opinion, but I actually like the randomness of 1D10, I find it makes attackers in general have to be a bit more cautious about the risks they're taking. Most people prefer 2d10, IMO, because it's more predictable on the individual combat, and thus and more fitting of a grand strategy game.

I also don't like a few of the strategic consequences of 2d10. I've never once a "historical" barbarossa (M/J 41, Soviet army at the border) end in anything less than utter annihilation for the Soviets under 2D10; under 1D10, it's still bad, but not quite as horrific; and I mean the Soviets did win that war, eventually, and I think the WiF player ought to as well.


So I slightly prefer 1D10, but most people like 2D10. If there were some way to merge the tactical consideration given by 2D10 (to get you to mass your armor in the open, defend the cities, etc) with the higher stakes nature of 1D10, it'd be perfect, in my opinion.



Orm -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 8:46:26 PM)

I prefer the 1d10 table as well. And I think that the blitz optional rule improves the 1d10 table even more. The blitz option gives an advantage to mass armor in clear or desert terrain in fine weather.



petracelli -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 10:07:29 PM)

Hi

Have been playing wif for a long time and would highly recommend 2d10 particularly if you are playing with all the additional units. It provides the attacker with advantages which means the Germans have a chance or recreating their early war advances giving they can mass their armour and have a very good chance of flipping the defending units.

1d10 games are by comparison no where near as fluid and indeed if the German player is unlucky they struggle to get through Belguim.

Would recommend 2d10 to the extent that I would not play a game with 1d10.

Cheers

Phil



Orm -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 10:18:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Hi

Have been playing wif for a long time and would highly recommend 2d10 particularly if you are playing with all the additional units. It provides the attacker with advantages which means the Germans have a chance or recreating their early war advances giving they can mass their armour and have a very good chance of flipping the defending units.

1d10 games are by comparison no where near as fluid and indeed if the German player is unlucky they struggle to get through Belguim.

Would recommend 2d10 to the extent that I would not play a game with 1d10.

Cheers

Phil

Have you tried 1d10 with the blitz option?

I agree with you that with the 1d10 that the battle of France can become a slugging match. But at the same time I feel that the 2d10 table is to powerful in USSR 1941. Therefore I prefer playing with the blitz option and the 1d10 table.

[image]local://upfiles/29130/2313AE2294E9461AA14A1B03192A09C8.jpg[/image]



lomyrin -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 10:20:23 PM)

I also play with 2D10 and will not go back to the older 1D10 which I did play with for many years until 2D10 came out.



SLAAKMAN -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 10:30:01 PM)

quote:

1D10 versus 2D10

1D10 is newb like Silly Warspite2&Chickenboy-Newblettes, 2D10 is pro. I choose 2D10. [:'(]



michaelbaldur -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 10:36:37 PM)

the most important different

is the the extreme results are rare on 2d10 .. the chance of rolling 2 or 20 is only 1%


with 1d10 you have a 10 % risk of rolling a 1 ....



Numdydar -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 10:58:57 PM)

That settles it for me as I will certainly be using the 2D10 as I would not want any chance of being impotnent [X(]



michaelbaldur -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 11:39:51 PM)


to late for you [:D]



Numdydar -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/23/2013 11:42:28 PM)

How did you know?[X(]



Neilster -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 4:24:27 AM)

It's "too", people..."too" [;)]

Cheers, Neilster



Neilster -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 4:36:51 AM)

I haven't played with 2D10 but as it gives a distribution with more average results, I'd be inclined to prefer it. Weird results are possible but rare.

Actually, a 3D10 table would be good. It's gives a reasonable approximation of the Normal distribution without ridiculous complexity.

Cheers, Neilster

[image]local://upfiles/10515/02B81471FC2B4E628DA9241935019B9F.jpg[/image]



composer99 -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 4:51:59 AM)

A 3D10 table with some additional decision-making (attacker vs. defender combat cards) is part of the 2008 annual (it's a component of Factories in Flames).



paulderynck -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 6:33:54 AM)

1D10 with Blitz Boni is not that different than 2D10. Without Blitz Boni 1D10 should only be used in what is known as "Classic" wherein you don't play with guns and divisions and so hexes only have two units stacked in them, maximum.

1D10 without Blitz Boni and with guns and divisions is like replaying WWI.

Personally I prefer 1D10 with Blitz Boni over 2D10 because as an attacker you can "guarantee" an attack at lower odds than with 2D10. Mind you they still have to be good odds like a 5 to 1 up3 Assault ("up3" meaning all 3 defenders are already flipped). The same attack in 2D10 has a 6% chance of failing.



peskpesk -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 9:49:50 AM)

I never play with 2D10 if I can avoid it. I did play with it for some time. But discovered that 1d10 with the blitz option is the way to go. It's much faster for players to calculate the modifiers.



Centuur -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 1:14:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I never play with 2D10 if I can avoid it. I did play with it for some time. But discovered that 1d10 with the blitz option is the way to go. It's much faster for players to calculate the modifiers.


True, about the calculations. However, now MWIF is around and makes those calculations for you, 2D10 is going to it for me.



composer99 -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 4:46:43 PM)

I like 2d10 (my Dungeons & Dragons heritage is showing here) because while there's a little bit more fiddling with number bonuses, it's still less cognitive work overall, at least IMO.

1d10 you have to know and manipulate die roll modifers and odds ratios (each permitted odds ratio has its own results column).

2d10 you just need to know die roll modifers (because a change in odds ratio just adds or subtracts modifiers).



petracelli -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 6:53:12 PM)

2d10 has less extreme luck than the 1d10 and trust me makes for a much better game a d there are ways of defending against a 41 barb for Russia, which is build all their own arm mech and at guns. All their ftrs to make it difficult for Germany to flip and get the Wallies to put real pressure on Italy.

Phil



Orm -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 6:55:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petracelli

2d10 has less extreme luck than the 1d10 and trust me makes for a much better game a d there are ways of defending against a 41 barb for Russia, which is build all their own arm mech and at guns. All their ftrs to make it difficult for Germany to flip and get the Wallies to put real pressure on Italy.

Phil

To me 2d10 is more extreme luck. Rolling 18 on that low odds attack or 3 on the high odds assault just annoys me. [:@]



paulderynck -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/24/2013 9:43:59 PM)

I agree 2D10 has more extremes. In 1D10 there may be a 10% chance of something bad happening, but in 2D10 (at higher odds) it might only be a 1% chance. So if you roll the bad result, it seems like it was far more unlucky.



mjjcpa -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/25/2013 3:45:58 AM)

The 2d10 is a sharper double edge sword imho.



Snydly -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/25/2013 5:03:38 AM)

Where is the option for 1D6 ... like the good ole days in Version 4 of WiF . [:D]

Now that lead to some very ... my 'offensive is over type of results' when you rolled two or three 1's invading Russia.



Centuur -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/25/2013 8:31:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I agree 2D10 has more extremes. In 1D10 there may be a 10% chance of something bad happening, but in 2D10 (at higher odds) it might only be a 1% chance. So if you roll the bad result, it seems like it was far more unlucky.


However, I like that. I always say to myself when that happens, that the intelligence community didn't do a good job: "you guys form intell said that there was only a MIL in Arnhem. However, you got my CW Para dropping on a couple of SS Panzerdivisions, so it got killed...".
2D10 simulates a kind of Fog of War with the odd very bad or very good result happening...



composer99 -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (9/25/2013 8:36:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
"you guys form intell said that there was only a MIL in Arnhem. However, you got my CW Para dropping on a couple of SS Panzerdivisions, so it got killed...".


Heh heh heh



chris3863 -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (10/28/2013 8:44:58 AM)

I'm not a huge fan of the 2d10 because the modifiers are subject to gamey abuse. For example want to take Leningrad? Attack in the winter with a bunch of Finns and mtn units and just blow any defense away with the modifiers no matter how poor the odds are. Also with 2d10 it is complete suicide to defend in anything other than mtns and cities. Nothing is more discouraging than watching the 1st SS (12-5) a 9-4 infantry and the GD division get blown away in a 1-1 attack in France like they were never there. That attack would never have been made with the 1d10.

In fairness, if you want a really fast paced bloody game, the 2d10 is for you. The defenders are like a Stark at the Red Wedding; dead. I just feel that a well prepared defense should not be so easy to blow away but I don't feel so strongly that I would refuse to play with 2d10, I just prefer 1d10.



brian brian -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (10/28/2013 5:15:08 PM)

the mods on 2d10 cut both ways. defend Leningrad with 2 white-print / elite and the engineer divesion. With a reserve ski division ready to ski in across the lake, or a ski or mountain division ready to be airlifted in at night to replace losses. still a very tough hex to take. Or put Koniev HQ and some oil in there for an extra -2 with HQ Support.



gridley -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (10/29/2013 9:20:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Snydly

Where is the option for 1D6 ... like the good ole days in Version 4 of WiF . [:D]

Now that lead to some very ... my 'offensive is over type of results' when you rolled two or three 1's invading Russia.


My wall still has dents from the 6 sided die...that truly was an unforgiving table.

Even the Naval table back then was brutal...I remember once the Japanese player rolled like, 4 six's and 2 fives...bye bye US Navy. The US player immediately started to calculate the odds for such a roll.[:D] It was funny to watch, took him a while to joke about it though...



brian brian -> RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 (10/30/2013 12:13:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I agree 2D10 has more extremes. In 1D10 there may be a 10% chance of something bad happening, but in 2D10 (at higher odds) it might only be a 1% chance. So if you roll the bad result, it seems like it was far more unlucky.


there are two kinds of "extreme luck" - rolling a 2 attacking on the 2d10, or rolling a 1 twice in a row attacking on the 1d10. Which would you rather experience?

I will probably never play 1d10 ever again, even solitaire with MWiF. 2d10 smooths the results better, and lets operational tactics (skill) into the game much more.



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